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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 278







Post#6926 at 02-10-2012 12:09 PM by pizal81 [at China joined May 2010 #posts 2,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
Well, I don't think that his faith matters much to independants. Obama has a track record this time around. The independants will be voting on his track record as President. Romney will pull the trigger on terrorists so they're equal as far as that is concerned. I don't view Romney as being a threat to anyones religion or religious freedom in general. Obama has failed to control spending. Obama has failed to grow the economy. Obama has proven himself to be a rather weak leader. He has managed to gain no political pull or traction with those on the right.
The whole point was that the Republicans base is so divided that no one will probably garner enough support to beat Obama unless they have demonized the man enough to make people think he is evil or just horrible.







Post#6927 at 02-10-2012 01:01 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
One thing I've notice looking at evangelicals on the whole is they seem to be willing to sacrifice a lot as far as beliefs go as long as the person is pro-life and is some form of acceptable "Christian". Mormonism doesn't fit into this and they'll never vote for him. If he wasn't a mormon he would be money, though.
The funny thing is he can't just up and renounce Mormonism because it would be too obvious that he was doing it for votes.
For someone who has lived in the Rocky Mountain west most of my life, and who is also a religious skeptic, I have to say, if you look at the Mormon life-style, it is in many ways most admirable! There are some things that trouble me, but their everyday life seems pretty darn nice. Healthy, disciplined, hard-working, and ... red-headed. (This last is from someone from a red-headed family!!)
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#6928 at 02-10-2012 01:11 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
The whole point was that the Republicans base is so divided that no one will probably garner enough support to beat Obama unless they have demonized the man enough to make people think he is evil or just horrible.
Rest assured that conservatives will rally around the eventual candidate, most likely Romney. Obama's record assured that. The latest attmept to trample on our 1st amendment religious liberties has fired up alot of conservatives. The "Fast and Furious" scandal is another issue flying under the radar from the liberal media but is being talked about alot among gun owners.







Post#6929 at 02-10-2012 01:51 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
One thing I've notice looking at evangelicals on the whole is they seem to be willing to sacrifice a lot as far as beliefs go as long as the person is pro-life and is some form of acceptable "Christian". Mormonism doesn't fit into this and they'll never vote for him. If he wasn't a mormon he would be money, though.
The funny thing is he can't just up and renounce Mormonism because it would be too obvious that he was doing it for votes.

Your point is right the Republican party is way too divided to have a candidate that garners a lot of support from the base. I think it is crazy though how much misinformation about Obama is out there or the right. As long as, people are talking like that and not even beginning to understand what a person is doing or trying to do we are hopeless to solve any problems whether one agrees with said person. Basically, the characterization of Obama on the right is one big straw man.
Had an interesting conversation this morning from two people working at two different banks. Both employees made an unsolicited comment about the Republican presidential hopefuls. It appears that, by some, Romney is being seen as the corporate candidate and Santorum as the candidate that understands the middle class.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6930 at 02-10-2012 01:53 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
Rest assured that conservatives will rally around the eventual candidate, most likely Romney. Obama's record assured that. The latest attmept to trample on our 1st amendment religious liberties has fired up alot of conservatives. The "Fast and Furious" scandal is another issue flying under the radar from the liberal media but is being talked about alot among gun owners.
President Obama is going to announce a compromise today about the contraception issue.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6931 at 02-10-2012 02:05 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by pizal81 View Post
The whole point was that the Republicans base is so divided that no one will probably garner enough support to beat Obama unless they have demonized the man enough to make people think he is evil or just horrible.
My point is Obama is beatable on his record alone because he has already proven to be a rather weak and a not so great President. The Republican candidate isn't going to have to deal with and get over the hype in this election. The primary issue for Romney is that Obama nationalized Romney care and he'll have to explain why what he viewed as good for Mass then isn't viewed as being good for the United States now. I'm interested to see how he explains and deals with that issue.







Post#6932 at 02-10-2012 02:06 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
OMG, I've just read that Santorum is a member of Opus Dei. Another reason this creep needs to be kept away from the White House
Survey USA polled Minnesota and suggested that President Obama would win the state by an even larger margin than by which he won in 2008.

Minnesotans can vote for Catholics who don't rub Catholicism in their faces (Kennedy, Kerry)... but I suspect that as an Opus Dei type Rick Santorum would remind Lutherans (a conservative voting bloc, to be sure) why Lutherans broke from Catholicism. Sure, Santorum won a GOP contest in Minnesota... among Minnesota Republicans.

Here's how the Survey USA poll goes:

51-32 Obama/Santorum

48-37 Obama/Paul

49-36 Obama/Romney

55-29 Obama/Gingrich

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...6-e31531a70318
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#6933 at 02-10-2012 02:16 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
President Obama is going to announce a compromise today about the contraception issue.
Oh goodie...... We get to watch another Obama..... Oops!.....I didn't know...... I f-d up moment







Post#6934 at 02-10-2012 02:21 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
President Obama is going to announce a compromise today about the contraception issue.
The damage has been done and it wont be forgotten. Also this "compromise" may not be acceptable. The Devil is in the details.....







Post#6935 at 02-10-2012 02:30 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
The damage has been done and it wont be forgotten. Also this "compromise" may not be acceptable. The Devil is in the details.....
There sure seems to be more pressure than what he ever expected when he made that ruling.

"The law firm, which describes itself as "dedicated to protecting the free expression of all religious traditions," filed lawsuits after the Obama administration's January announcement about new contraception rules on behalf of Belmont Abbey College in North Carolina, Colorado Christian University and Eternal Word Television Network, a Catholic TV and radio station"

Here's more:

Obama Birth Control Compromise In Works

WASHINGTON -- Faced with increasing pressure from religious groups and Catholic lawmakers in both parties over the new federal requirement for birth control coverage, the Obama administration is planning to announce an "accommodation" on Friday aimed at allaying some of the concerns of faith-driven employers.

ABC News reported

Friday morning that the announcement was "likely" to be made Friday. A source familiar with the deliberations told The Huffington Post the announcement was imminent.

Senior White House adviser Valerie Jarrett told members of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus in a phone call on Friday morning that the new compromise is the insurer -- rather than the employer -- would be required to provide the contraceptive coverage free of charge for women employed by the entities in question, a congressional staffer told HuffPost.


EDIT: Link to entire article -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1267677.html

Last edited by Deb C; 02-10-2012 at 02:39 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6936 at 02-10-2012 02:57 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
i start at the beginning. Why does anyone have to pay anybody to get sufficent health care? I'm a single payer guy.

Barring that (because of the stupidity of about 1/2 the people in this country), then I'm about why anyone should find it difficult to pay the $200 - they should be gainfully employed or self-employed with wages far more than adequate to pay for sufficent health care coverage.

I don't buy into the premise of your overlords.
Dude, you have the attitude and the mentality of a trust fund kid who hasn't worked to get anything his entire life.







Post#6937 at 02-10-2012 03:04 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
There sure seems to be more pressure than what he ever expected when he made that ruling.

"The law firm, which describes itself as "dedicated to protecting the free expression of all religious traditions," filed lawsuits after the Obama administration's January announcement about new contraception rules on behalf of Belmont Abbey College in North Carolina, Colorado Christian University and Eternal Word Television Network, a Catholic TV and radio station"

Here's more:

Obama Birth Control Compromise In Works

WASHINGTON -- Faced with increasing pressure from religious groups and Catholic lawmakers in both parties over the new federal requirement for birth control coverage, the Obama administration is planning to announce an "accommodation" on Friday aimed at allaying some of the concerns of faith-driven employers.

ABC News reported

Friday morning that the announcement was "likely" to be made Friday. A source familiar with the deliberations told The Huffington Post the announcement was imminent.

Senior White House adviser Valerie Jarrett told members of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus in a phone call on Friday morning that the new compromise is the insurer -- rather than the employer -- would be required to provide the contraceptive coverage free of charge for women employed by the entities in question, a congressional staffer told HuffPost.


EDIT: Link to entire article -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1267677.html

Contrary to your opinion, Obama is on solid ground here. This is a continuation of a court-reviewed policy that's been in place since Clinton. Obama already comes across as a wimp. He should stand is ground.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#6938 at 02-10-2012 03:06 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
There sure seems to be more pressure than what he ever expected when he made that ruling.

"The law firm, which describes itself as "dedicated to protecting the free expression of all religious traditions," filed lawsuits after the Obama administration's January announcement about new contraception rules on behalf of Belmont Abbey College in North Carolina, Colorado Christian University and Eternal Word Television Network, a Catholic TV and radio station"

Here's more:

Obama Birth Control Compromise In Works

WASHINGTON -- Faced with increasing pressure from religious groups and Catholic lawmakers in both parties over the new federal requirement for birth control coverage, the Obama administration is planning to announce an "accommodation" on Friday aimed at allaying some of the concerns of faith-driven employers.

ABC News reported

Friday morning that the announcement was "likely" to be made Friday. A source familiar with the deliberations told The Huffington Post the announcement was imminent.

Senior White House adviser Valerie Jarrett told members of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus in a phone call on Friday morning that the new compromise is the insurer -- rather than the employer -- would be required to provide the contraceptive coverage free of charge for women employed by the entities in question, a congressional staffer told HuffPost.


EDIT: Link to entire article -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1267677.html


Here is how this "compromise" is being received....

http://www.lifesitenews.com/white-ho...ut-insura.html


My own reasons to oppose this isnt becuase of religious issues but the fact that employers/insurance companies must pay fully for the contraceptives. Really? So other medications need a copay but women get this for free? How about a copay? How much will this affect our rates we pay?







Post#6939 at 02-10-2012 03:38 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Contrary to your opinion, Obama is on solid ground here. This is a continuation of a court-reviewed policy that's been in place since Clinton. Obama already comes across as a wimp. He should stand is ground.[/LEFT]
Please tell, what is my opinion?
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6940 at 02-10-2012 03:43 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Here's an excerpt of an interview Bill Moyers had with a Millennial in regards to who she sees her generation voting for in 2012.

Preview: Economic Malpractice and the Millennials


February 9, 2012


There are 80-plus million Americans today who were born roughly between 1978 and 2000, and theyre getting hit hard by economic circumstances created over the past 30 years. The Millennials are the first generation of Americans who cannot count on doing better than their parents. How have these realities affected their outlook? And how will that impact Barack Obama, whom they supported so enthusiastically in 2008? This week, Bill discusses how economic inequality destroys opportunity for the Millennial generation with Heather McGhee a Millennial herself who directs the Washington office of the research and advocacy group Demos.

Also on the show is Bruce Bartlett, a former domestic policy adviser for the Reagan White House and former top treasury official under the first President Bush. Now a heretic in the conservative circles where he once was a star, Bartlett argues that right-wing tax policies pushed in part by Grover Norquist and Tea Party activists are destroying Americas economic foundation.


http://vimeo.com/36549171
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6941 at 02-10-2012 03:48 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
My own reasons to oppose this isnt becuase of religious issues but the fact that employers/insurance companies must pay fully for the contraceptives. Really? So other medications need a copay but women get this for free? How about a copay? How much will this affect our rates we pay?
Almost half of all pregnancies are unplanned, and pregnancy is much more expensive to your insurance company than some birth control pills.
Last edited by JohnMc82; 02-10-2012 at 03:53 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#6942 at 02-10-2012 04:28 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
Dude, you have the attitude and the mentality of a trust fund kid who hasn't worked to get anything his entire life.
Dude, you have no idea what I have and haven't done in my life.

However, I do like it when you all get to this point - even you can recognize how flaccid your arguments have become.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#6943 at 02-10-2012 04:37 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Which means that the employer still pays for it ... how is that a compromise? Maybe they only said that to appease the pro-choice folks.
Obama has really screwed himself over on this one. No matter what happens, the extremists on one side or the other won't be satisfied.
You're reaching for straws now. This a near-perfect outcome for Obama. What would have made it perfect would have been if the compromise was contingent on legislation, resulting in another GOP House T-baggers' heads exploding and showing every independent voter just how out of touch they are and how unyielding in their version of Sharia Law.

But this will do -

Sister Keehan from the Catholic Health Association said she was "very pleased" with the White House.
Catholic Health Association is Very Pleased with Today's White House Resolution that Protects Religious Liberty and Conscience Rights
Let the old white men Catholic Bishops stew - who cares?

Obama plays you all like a fiddle.


Or, maybe he just listens to me -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...551#post420551

Last edited by playwrite; 02-10-2012 at 04:49 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#6944 at 02-10-2012 04:38 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Hah! I posed a similar question to playdude, and it sent him into magic pony land.
By the way, Vermin Supreme wears a rubber boot on his head.
Care to join my write-in campaign?
I'm really contemplating that write-in campaign.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6945 at 02-10-2012 04:39 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Please tell, what is my opinion?
I think you feel he screwed-up by making this an issue. I don't. As far as your opinoin on contraceptives, I'm sure you think they shoud be readily available and cheap ... or free.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#6946 at 02-10-2012 04:41 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Hah! I posed a similar question to playdude, and it sent him into magic pony land.
By the way, Vermin Supreme wears a rubber boot on his head.
Care to join my write-in campaign?
Ah, the reference to magic pony land was in regard to your belief that the judiciary is not part of the government.

Guess you skipped Civics class that day.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#6947 at 02-10-2012 04:47 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
I think you feel he screwed-up by making this an issue. I don't. As far as your opinoin on contraceptives, I'm sure you think they shoud be readily available and cheap ... or free.
Pretty much on the mark. If I was running for president, I'd promise free contraceptives for everyone who wants to take them. Of course I'd also push really hard for single payer that would pretty much take care of that issue. And, the other thing I would do was to insist that pharmaceuticals develop a BCP for men. It's time they had to remember to take a pill everyday.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#6948 at 02-10-2012 04:47 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
My own reasons to oppose this isnt because of religious issues but the fact that employers/insurance companies must pay fully for the contraceptives. Really? So other medications need a copay but women get this for free? How about a copay? How much will this affect our rates we pay?
Almost half of all pregnancies are unplanned, and pregnancy is much more expensive to your insurance company than some birth control pills.
There is also the issue of "wellness", which is a different category than typical healthcare. Almost all insurers offer free wellness care, because it saves them money, as JohnMc82 noted. Putting contraception under that category is a good fit. I would love to hear an argument to the contrary.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#6949 at 02-10-2012 04:52 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Pretty much on the mark. If I was running for president, I'd promise free contraceptives for everyone who wants to take them. Of course I'd also push really hard for single payer that would pretty much take care of that issue. And, the other thing I would do was to insist that pharmaceuticals develop a BCP for men. It's time they had to remember to take a pill everyday.

Everyday??? Holy cow!!!

I don't know about other guys, but crap, they better mix that in a cocktail with a heavy dose of Viagra!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#6950 at 02-10-2012 04:58 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
... And, the other thing I would do was to insist that pharmaceuticals develop a BCP for men. It's time they had to remember to take a pill everyday.
Not to be too obvious about this, but a a man's failure to take a pill doesn't get him pregnant. Leads to a much lower motivation level. If I was a woman (maybe in my next life), I would handle that myself, out of simple self preservation.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
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