All is a dangerous word. I am fairly conservative on many issues and think that health care needs major reform because the free-enterprise system does not work well for health care.Originally Posted by Eric the Green
I am OK with your plan with the exception of caffeine.
I would like to see a streamlined tax code with no loopholes for the wealthy( real persons or corporations) to exploit, a high personal deduction and the lowest rates possible to balance the budget. The current system is overly complex and leads to high employment of tax lawyers and accountants.
Last edited by radind; 02-13-2012 at 12:09 PM.
Okay, let's deal with your cognitive dissonance. I can interact with a couple of other folks to get at the question of "why," but perhaps you will serve as a real-time example as we unravel you.
First, you are conflating a number of issues into somewhat of disconnected stream-of-consciousness. I actually believe that is much of the problem for what passes as the Right these days - you can't comprehend what is really going-on around you so you stream together a bunch of bumper sticker sloganeering provided by Faux News and the propaganda machine and actually believe that passes as some profound thinking.
But in order to help you, or at least use you as an example of today's cognitive dissonance on the Right, let's break it down and deal with the pieces. What we have so far is:
a) your fear of big government and limiting your freedom fries -
b) closely related to (a), you believe that "free markets" actually exist and would solve all our problems, like health care, if inefficient govt would only just get out of the way -- I'm against shifting the control from the people to the government.
- the services and the products will be determined by bureaucrats and their budget behind closed doors.
- It's a matter of what I'm going to be able to control
- Democrats want the government solve the problem by taking over the problem which would create more government
- Privatization would be a radical change to their norm in the same way that the idea of government control would be a radical change to our norm.
c) you fear the transfer of wealth from 'producers,' like yourself to 'freeloaders'-The Republicans want to use market based solutions to solve the problem which requires less government.
- I've got news for you, the quality and services and products that we recieve from health care today were determined by the people who provide (scientists, doctors, nurses and many others) and those who pay (insurance companies, corporations, employees and customers)
- Privatization would shift and remove the money stream that feeds the Medicare program and essentially eliminate the program and eliminate the govt jobs of those who run and manage it.
d) you have a sense of personal frugality/fortitude and that there is 'no free lunch' -Do you think a welfare queen or a working poor would be willing to give up 10% of their income to pay for Donald Trumps grandson's asthma treatments or my kid issues?
e) as an extension of (d), the personal, you project the sense of the need for frugality and 'no free lunch' onto the federal govt in regard to concerns for deficits and debt- a person who clearly knows that he/she have worked to financially contribute or pay for everything in their lives up to this point.
and, of course, just like everyone is a great driver (just ask them- You mean that no one has actually paid for any of those things that you mentioned yet. We probably won't at a significant cost to the left, our world image and the world itself.
) we have your -
f) you claim a complete understanding of the monetary system and thereby hold true reality
Now, before unraveling these, for those looking on, let's cross walk these viewpoints of yours to those generally observed by the NYT article that was under discussion as well as to the Bruce Bartlett observations that Eric's post provided -- I'm very aquainted with a monetary system and nothing is free in a monetary system. The money comes from someone or some place.
- You don't get this because you're missing the reality.
Certainly (c), the concern for freeloaders, and (d), the sense of needed frugality and self-sufficiency, are both in the NYT article about the town in Minnesota.
The play between "loss of freedom to big government" (a) and "free markets can do no wrong" (b) are in the Bruce Bartlett interview provided by Eric.
What's most interesting, however, is the sharing by both the Right and the Left of the projection of personal frugality onto the federal government (e) and the cocksuredness that all know the monetary system and reality (f) that leads all to believe that federal deficits/debts are going to bring the world to an end! What's funny is how the Bartlett interview actually brings up ignorance of folks like Exile without pausing to think if it might be reflected in their own mirror.
So there's the set up. Maybe enough for contemplation for now. But let's give it just a little push on that (e) and (f) held in common -
Exile, what do people need to buy federal govt debt and where does it come from?
Given your complete understanding of the monetary system, I feel a little silly even asking you such a question. But, like I said, just a little start, for now.
More to come, but for now, Exile, we await your insightful monetary-expert answer!
_______________________
Just to note, I'm being US-centric for now. When I say federal debt, I mean US federal govt debt - US Treasuries. After getting Exile's 'knowledge' on this out in the open (and corrected), we can then move on to how this works (or doesn't, in the case of Euro-land) in other countries.
Last edited by playwrite; 02-13-2012 at 12:24 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Good advice, and it could probably save a lot of money in total healthcare costs for the US if people actually followed it. Of course I have to quibble on the details, because recent research shows a big difference between processed & preserved meats like bacon, against more natural cuts of meat. It looks like the nitrate preservatives cook up in to nitrosamines, a chemical also produced by cigarette smoke, and that has been implicated in cancer, diabetes, and heart disease.
When they actually control for the types of meat, there's no extra risk of heart disease or diabetes associated with whole beef, lamb, and pork. A second study found a small increase of cancer associated with fresh meats, but it was trivial compared to the cancer risk of the processed ones.
But that still doesn't help someone who gets rear-ended in a car accident, slips and falls down the stairs, contracts an odd virus, happens to be born with an autoimmune condition, etc.. etc.. etc.. Some conditions can be avoided with proper diet and exercise, but that doesn't fix broken bones or stitch open wounds.“To lower risk of heart attacks and diabetes, people should consider which types of meats they are eating. Processed meats such as bacon, salami, sausages, hot dogs and processed deli meats may be the most important to avoid,” said Micha. “Based on our findings, eating one serving per week or less would be associated with relatively small risk.”
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
All good advice, and yet -- I do all of that (except the caffeine) and I still need medication to control my blood pressure. It runs in the family. My father died of a stroke when he was one year older than I am now. Some things really are hereditary and can't be avoided. My meds are pretty cheap, thankfully, but shit does happen.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"
My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/
The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
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Well, here's the thing. If you're going to have single-payer, you're kind of deciding that everyone is going to drive the same Bentley or Pinto when it comes to health care. We all want the Bentley, but buying one for everyone certainly isn't affordable. Some people might be happy for the Pinto, but those flush with cash and facing medical problems will resent it.
So, we need to skip the intermediate step and head straight in the direction of the other English speaking nations. While England, Canada, Australia are all still (wrongly) considered single payer, they're also allowing more and more private label alternatives that go above and beyond the guaranteed minimum. I mean, we're not talking about kidney markets, but keeping Mt Sinai and the Mayo clinic open for the people who don't care how much it costs.
Anyway, single payer won't happen in the U.S. It only gets a favorable polling in the low 30s, while the more generic question of "universal healthcare" is close to a majority. Other than Taiwan, there's really no contemporary example of it in practice, either. It is actually too extreme toward socialized medicine, and this is coming from someone who thinks France has the issue best figured out.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
It's strange. We don't buy police coverage or fire protection as we buy medical coverage. We pay taxes, and we reasonably expect that the cops will determine that any serious crime will be dealt with -- and that any fire will be met by a fire brigade. We don't let the 'free market' decide what children go to school and which ones don't, and we don't allow the free market to decide what criminal acts will be prosecuted based upon the ability of a victim's family to pay for the court system. It is to my benefit -- and that of everyone else -- that the cops deter armed robberies, that the fire department extinguishes fires as quickly as possible, and that mass literacy be the norm.
Medicare is public because the health insurance companies found medical coverage of the elderly an unprofitable activity because the elderly were often too poor to buy insurance and weren't generally employed. Medicaid is public because the destitute can rarely buy health insurance. In a time of unreliable employment and skinflint employers, profits-first medical insurance might become unavailable to the underpaid and unreliably-employed.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
LOL do you think the research is bad, or what? I try to put my belief with the evidence.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
Would you prefer a bill of $1,000 with loss of control, or a bill of anywhere from $2,000 - $4,000 and you get to pick? No healthcare system has a lower load than Meidcare (98+% goes directly to pay for healthcare). With some control on what is permissible and what isn't (unless you want a supplimental), it will be cheaper still.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I tend to agree with you, the majority of the debt and wealth in this country will simply go away by pushing a few delete buttons. Black and white money looks impressive on paper but has no true value until it's turned into cash or is secured with cash. Black and white money can be used to exchange or replace or borrow against black and white money.
Now, I have a question for you, how much is black and white money going to be worth to me and how much black and white money would one need to trade me to get a few of my green backs or chips of gold to buy lunch during a credit crisis or crunch? Would you give me a million black and whites for a green after starving for a week or two? I mean, I would be a fool not to accept a million black and white dollars for one green back that I have thousands or millions of. One dollar would be worth the risk. The answer to question is that a person needs is whatever amount the federal govt will take to shift the debt, so to speak. What it's worth depend on the economic conditions that support the debt. It's not all that different than having mom co-sign a loan or an old equity loan.
BTW, this should all be familiar to you because something simular to all of this just happened not very long ago in the banking industry.
Last edited by Exile 67'; 02-13-2012 at 02:20 PM.
The GOP option has one successs story: Japan; it has one partial success story: Switzerland. Which do you prefer and why? How would it work here?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
...Which is exactly the system they have in the RF (not english-speaking, to be sure; but it's what I know). Minimum lifesaving stuff for everyone for no cost, and anything and everything (upgrades included) available for pay.
Of course, a major component helping that work so well is the utter lack of cartel-limited supply of medical care. None of the stuff people are proposing as a solution for the US will do the slightest bit of good until that part is taken care of.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
Yes, I agree. My impression is that studies have tried to link caffeine with every ailment known to man without success.
David Kaiser '47
My blog: History Unfolding
My book: The Road to Dallas: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
Would you be willing to loose access to the $32,000 drug that helps your wife? Would you be willing to pay a thousand more to have access to her expensive drugs or would you prefer to pay a thousand less and accept her going on without them?
Last edited by Exile 67'; 02-13-2012 at 02:49 PM.
The Rani had some good links tying caffeine to psychological disorders, but there are other studies saying tea and coffee are rather good for you. So there are potential benefits and risks that will effect individuals differently depending on their particular predispositions.
There's a good case for moderation, too. Like it is obvious that alcohol abuse is destructive, but all-cause mortality hits a low point at 2-4 drinks a week. People who never drank were actually more likely to die. There was also a really interesting meta-study that showed vegetarians have the lowest all-cause mortality, but the main reason seems to be because they are the least likely to smoke. Fish and occasional meat-eaters were at around the same level as vegetarians, but vegans and regular meat-eaters were tied with the highest mortality.
I think most things fall in to the category of moderation, except vegetables. You can have as many as you want!! On the other side, things that are not ok even in moderation would probably include smoke, trans fats, processed meats, (definitely no smoking processed meats), and refined sugar. Well, maybe a tiny bit of sugar, but not soda and "fruit flavored juice" levels.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
Has it ever occured to you that the English speaking nations are beginning to move in our direction?
That is a valid point. While I agree that preventive care is crucial, it's not the entire ball of wax. There are, as you indicate, variables. Considering inherited illness and everyday ingested and breathed air pollutants, pesticides, fertilizers and other toxins, play a part in our overall health. It is a proven fact that people who live in more polluted areas with poor air quality, have more illness, especially asthma. Then there's life's numerous reasons for stress that cause illness. Not to mention the type A behaviors that play a major part in the contribution to heart disease.
While we surely need the preventive care and remedies for our many environmental problems, that is not the total solution to our very broken health care system.
I found this interesting ;
Problem with health care is for-profit insurance
http://moneyedpoliticians.net/2012/0...fit-insurance/Why do politicians such as Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., and Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., obsess with untried models of health care reform? They propose a “premium support option” for Medicare that would also extend to small businesses. Insurance companies are expected to compete with traditional Medicare to provide comprehensive benefits at affordable prices. Beneficiaries unable to afford premiums will receive vouchers of limited sums to support their premiums; hence the name, “premium support.”
This plan presumes that private insurance companies will eagerly compete for market share by offering better benefits at lower prices to our seniors. This simply does not happen.
Our two congressmen may be confusing American insurance companies with those in Europe. European companies are forbidden to discriminate on the basis of health, must offer policies to any applicant, must supply comprehensive benefits in every policy, and cannot cancel a policy for any reason. They compete by offering better benefits at lower costs with better customer service.
In contrast, American insurance companies play by entirely different rules. They compete by refusing policies to sick applicants, shrinking benefits, dropping policy holders as soon as they get sick, and denying or delaying payment to providers. In short, they compete by providing less care to fewer people.
Last edited by Deb C; 02-13-2012 at 04:34 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
In some ways what you're saying is true, but I don't think anyone is trying to get where we are. We've gone way too far in the other direction, where everything is expensive but there is little to speak of in terms of results.
One big cause of that is that people who can't afford treatment will put it off until later - when it is much more urgent and expensive to fix. Even if they can't afford it, doctors won't just turn people away in an emergency, but the hospitals and admins have to go try to get payment out of people who couldn't afford it in the first place. Eventually it gets redistributed anyway through tax money, insurance costs, and charitable donations. But the system of doing so is not efficient in the slightest.
The other big cost of the American medical system is the opportunity cost of human capital. Health is one of the strongest predictors of financial success, so expecting sick people to come up with cash is kind of silly. The sicker someone gets, the less likely they are to maintain a job, and the more likely they are to end up on disability or some other form of public assistance. In that regard, basic and preventative services are a small investment with a huge return.
Last edited by JohnMc82; 02-13-2012 at 03:15 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
I don't think that's quite right. Ideoloically, I think these folks are embarrassed to need the help, and sincerely wish to terminate the benefits. They see the economy as a zero-sum game, and feel it will hurt thier children. Of course, this is their pride speaking. If they win, and the benefits end, they will be happy for a brief day or two, until they realize that they are now good and truly screwed. They will hunker down, but that won't solve their problems, They will hunker down even further. Eventually, this irrighteous cycle will bring them to the point that they realize that this is not a viable course. I don't know where it goes from there. Losing their homes or not being able to feed their families may be enough to finally move them ... or not. Cognitive dissonance is very strong. Some may fail completely. I hope it's very few.Yes, I think that the thrift ethic and fear of debt is a primary factor.
I would add the fear that someone else is taking advantage, even if it clearly themselves that are one of those that are taking advantage. As noted in the NYT piece, they say its okay for them because: it's only temporary; they really wouldn't be doing it unless they really needed to do it: they deserve it (e.g. military service); no one really tells them how much they're getting implying if they only knew how much the operation was, they wouldn't partake; and of course, the old Ayn Rand excuse of if the govt is offering a freebie, it is your objectivest right to take all you can.
And, of course, they imagine that they're the only ones with these excuses.
There really is a fear of "the other" on the Right. I think it goes to very heart of why one chooses that lifelong viewpoint that now makes up for what passes as the Right today. It really explains much of vitriol towards Obama who, to the vast chagrin of progressives, by any objective measures is one of the most moderate President's in our lifetime.
For those who survive, the answers they seek next may be righteous or scary. It can go either way.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
The Tea Party wants to slam on the brakes and watch as a private sector solution rises magically from the ashes. It's been tried. I doesn't work. Right now, the European conservatives are giving it a go, and the coutries that are doing it: The UK, Ireland, Latvia and few others, are all experieincing economic contractin and rising unempolyment. Next in the barrel: Greece, if it decides to do it. If they do, they must sell virtually all communal property to "private enterperise", and accept draconian cuts to retirement and salaries. Somehow, I don't think they will.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
My wife does all those things, in spades. 10 days ago, a young woman fell asleep at the wheel and hit three cars. One was my wife's. She came out of it with a fractured vertibrae. Explain how your system resolves that.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
That drug is also availalbe in other countries, and it's much cheaper elsewhere. Why would a different system change that here?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I can't agree; it's still all crap. Dramas are all cop and doctor shows with slick, empty acting. There is no comedy to compare with Seinfeld, let alone All in the Family, MTMoore, I Love Lucy etc. Big Bang Theory is OK in small doses.
Incredibly boring. And nothing with any social, moral or philosophical content. Nothing like The Twilight Zone or the Defenders, or even Perry Mason or Rockford Files.
