Originally Posted by pizal81

If we are just animals why do we have any more dignity than a dog. We are just different species. My point that you ignored was that there is no difference between right and wrong on atheism. If I want to rape someone damn the consequences there is no moral reason not to do it. The idea that people have a special dignity is predicated on the existence of God or gods.

I know plenty of people who are atheists who belong to the Ethical Society. Their interest and care for the common good is commendable. One can be *ethical* and not believe in a God.

We are sure in a dualistic era. One state passes the right to gay marriage and others demand no teaching of contraception in sex education classes. In addition, there's Virginia that wants mandatory ultra sounds for women wanting abortions. Looks like a civil war of values to me.

To me, none of these could pass without the support from the citizens. From my experience with politicians, none of them would be on board to pass a bill if they thought it would hurt their re-election.

Utah GOP passes bill to ban contraception in sex ed classes

A bill passed by Republicans in the Utah House of Representatives would effectively ban comprehensive education about human sexuality, forcing schools to teach abstinence or nothing at all.

In all, 45 Republicans voted for state Rep. Bill Wright’s (R) HB363, with 11 Republicans joining the 17 Democrats who opposed it, according to The Salt Lake Tribune.

The bill forbids advocating for “the use of contraceptive methods or devices,” sex outside marriage or homosexuality. It also restricts teaching about sexual intercourse or erotic behavior.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/19Mf6Q...ion-in-sex-ed/

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

I'm starting to wonder what this forum would be like if I put every Boomer on ignore.

Go ahead. Make my day.

(Dirty Harry, acted by Clint Eastwood).

Unlike Clint Eastwood, I am a Boomer born in 1955.

Just notify me by copying the "This message is not displayed..." Due to the source it won't be an embarrassment.

You have learned nothing from me. Why don't you go play with your fire truck!

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

That is one of the most revealing statements that's been made here in a long time. And it really gets to the heart of Boomers, and the left. Their entire world view is based on having enemies to fight. They don't see others as fellow human beings. They see them as either allies or enemies. Allies are to be supported no matter what they do, enemies are to be treated like vermin and exterminated.

Please!

I want a better world for America, and that includes for people whose cultural values are dissimilar to mine -- like Protestant fundamentalists who have cast off the Enlightenment so that they can believe in Biblical literalism to the extent of young-earth Creationism. Those people do not deserve to be economically raped by distant plutocrats and exploitative executives who see them only as livestock at best and vermin at worst just like all other proles irrespective of ethnicity and religion.

As a liberal I do not have the apocalyptic view of nations and classes as inherently good and evil, and that anyone who does evil needs to be cast aside as a potential leader. In general it is now American conservatives who so divide the world into good and evil and excuse the lies and machinations of their leaders as Machiavellian exercises necessary for confirming their world-view.

Originally Posted by Weave

Your crystal ball was wrong in 2010....

We failed to see how ruthless, unprincipled, and well-funded the Hard Right was in 2010... and how it could return in the face of mass apathy.

Americans have learned that Congress is as important as the Presidency -- the hard way. Many of the lessons of a 4T are hard, necessary lessons -- one of which is that one cannot assume good results just because such is our supposed heritage. The Germans thought that as cultural heirs of Bach, Schiller, and Goethe that they could never become barbarians. In the last completed 4T they became barbarians far worse than such 'uncultured' barbarians as Apaches and Zulus.

Just because Whitman and Gershwin are part of our heritage doesn't mean that our nation can't go into the cesspool of history that Germany entered in the 1930s.

Originally Posted by Deb C

I believe you may be correct. I've experienced many who were at one time starting to see the light pertaining to their hard right religious ideas. Now it appears that they are being *shamed* back into line with some of this hard core fundamentalism. Maybe it will get much worse before it gets better?

But the Hard Right isn't winning converts. It can't even keep its own kids in line. Nothing would create more potential fifth-columnists in America than a Hard Right political order that has a cultural basis alien to most people and an economic order that offers nothing other than hard toil on short rations. Italians generally considered Americans "liberators" between 1943 and 1945. American and British occupation was a genuine liberation for German workers.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

This is a serious question. Do you believe in religious freedom? Do you respect the rights of others to believe what they believe, and to freely practice their faith? Because most of what comes from the mouths of the anti-Christian left makes it sound like the answer to those questions is no. It certainly appears that the left considers genuine religious faith to be a disqualifier not only for public office, but for public speech. It seems clear that while the left is vehemently opposed to any hint of religion being imposed on those who don't want it, they have no problem whatsoever imposing no religion on people of faith.

I have no problem with people practicing their religion, and I don't make judgments on what is "true" or "genuine" faith. As I see it genuine religious belief can include the idea that Jesus demands social justice in view of His Ministry. I suggest that you re-read the Sermon on the Mount before you assume that Jesus stood for corrupt politicians and rapacious plutocrats. He recognized human need as a reality and the obligation to relieve such need as a reality. And that is before I address Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, all of which have their own demands for human decency from elites toward the masses.

I suggest, by the way, that our nominally-Christian economic elites look into their own behavior to determine how well their behavior fits the Teachings of Jesus so that they can act in a way that doesn't cause the masses to turn to Karl Marx.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

What does that mean, in practice? If I believe murder should be illegal because of the Bible, does that mean my view is invalid? Does that mean it should be made legal because it can be arrived at through religious faith?

I can assure you that officially-atheist Marxist-Leninist countries all opposed murder, almost always condemning murderers to death. What the commies did wrong was to murder millions and give approval to the horrific crimes done in the name of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Ho, Kim, etc. It is worth noting that the Soviet Union approved the death sentences passed upon Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel, Kaltenbrunner, et al., for deeds best described as either murder or complicity to murder.

How do you plan to read someone's mind and determine whether their point of view is motivated by religion?

In my case -- assume that one professes is an honest statement of faith unless one has compelling reasons to believe otherwise.

Are you saying that people holding public office should not have freedom of speech when it comes to the subject of religion? If a politician says something like the things Rick Santorum has said, should he be impeached and removed from office?

Jimmy Carter was a Southern Baptist. No liberal had any problem with Carter's benign expression of his Southern Baptist faith any more than they had with the unambiguous identity (Southern Baptist) of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. If we should be so foolish as to vote in someone like Rick Santorum as President, then his statements that seem to emanate from the Opus Dei zealot wing of the Roman Catholic Church would not be cause for impeachment. It's up to the People in a democracy to vote wisely. If the People is a collection of fools, then democracy is doomed anyway.

Then I assume you oppose the Obama Administration's decision to force the Catholic Church to pay for contraception, which goes against their beliefs? For the record, I'm not a Catholic and I don't think there's anything wrong with contraception, but I oppose the government's actions, which I believe violate the First Amendment.

Religious freedom includes the right to dissent with the teachings of one's nominal leaders and to act in disobedience with absurd and impractical teachings. I can imagine Catholics justifying contraception by saying that it prevents abortions.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Yes, exactly.
And if people decides that animals are not deserving of dignity, what's to keep them from placing that arbitrary divider elsewhere?
That's exactly how otherwise "enlightened" societies convinced themselves that human slavery was acceptable for so long.

Yes. When we understand that everything is valuable and connected, then there will be far less violence toward life itself.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

In general it is now American conservatives who so divide the world into good and evil...

Was it conservatives who divided us into the 1% and the 99%?

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

We failed to see how ruthless, unprincipled, and well-funded the Hard Right was in 2010... and how it could return in the face of mass apathy.

Americans have learned that Congress is as important as the Presidency -- the hard way. Many of the lessons of a 4T are hard, necessary lessons -- one of which is that one cannot assume good results just because such is our supposed heritage. The Germans thought that as cultural heirs of Bach, Schiller, and Goethe that they could never become barbarians. In the last completed 4T they became barbarians far worse than such 'uncultured' barbarians as Apaches and Zulus.

Just because Whitman and Gershwin are part of our heritage doesn't mean that our nation can't go into the cesspool of history that Germany entered in the 1930s.

Oh please, you liberals live in fantasy land. The only time Dems win is when they pretend, like Clinton that they are moderate and then, when ther true colors show, like in 1994 and 2010 they get slapped out of power. People bought Obama's dog and pony show of simple homespun phrases of "hope" and "change". This was driven by a love crazed liberal media who never vetted a clear empty suit of little accomplishment and experience. He was, in fact a complete joke when looking at his thin resume....Anger towards Bush was the primary driver of his election.

The only barbarians of late are the "occupy" clowns who engage in violence and mayhem driven by their puppet masters at the union halls and the DNC. Tea Partiers, by comparison, have been peaceful. Many "occupiers" continue to threaten violent acton much like Nazi stormtroopers and communist thugs of Wiemar Germany.

As much as the left likes to talk about how "right wingers" want to deny rights, its almost exclusive of the left to look for ways to stifle freedom of speech, when it opposes their ideas.

Originally Posted by The Rani

People can speak for themselves in public or in private.

Then I assume you have no issue with others repsonding to a pointed question.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Was it conservatives who divided us into the 1% and the 99%?

Actually, yes. Though to be honest, they divided us into the 99.99% and .01%.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Didn't you ever see The Bad News Bears?

No. Why do you ask?

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

Was it conservatives who divided us into the 1% and the 99%?

Why...yes, now that you mention it.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Actually, yes. Though to be honest, they divided us into the 99.99% and .01%.

My point was that they didn't emphasize these labels as a dividing line. In other words, to the extent their favored policies created a larger gap between the have-it-alls and the others (have-lesses and have-nots), it was not they who created the labels "99%" and "1%" as a divider.

Originally Posted by B Butler

Are you still working under the quaint assumption that individuals have rights, but corporations do not?

I'm contrasting two individuals -- the employer vs. the employee. It really doesn't matter whether the employer has incorporated or not. I'm just pointing out that the conservative frame on the contraception mandate seems to assume that employee benefits are the property of the employer, which doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

My point was that they didn't emphasize these labels as a dividing line. In other words, to the extent their favored policies created a larger gap between the have-it-alls and the others (have-lesses and have-nots), it was not they who created the labels "99%" and "1%" as a divider.

No, they wanted the impression to exist that we all are part of the extended-super-upper-middle class ... except for those welfare chislers, of course. That we bought it as a nation for as long as we have is stunning, in the worst sense of the term. That people just getting by are still buying it is a dissertation for some aspring PhD, just waiting to be written.

Blame it on those Founding Fathers.


Dominionist Theology

Dominionist theology has molded American discourse, giving politics a hyperbolic, good-versus-evil quality. If Dominionism had campaign bumper stickers, they might read, "Biblical Law for America" or "The Founding Fathers Are My Prophets."

According to the writer of this article, much of this started with Reagan. He understood the power of proclaiming his Christianity, considering the majority of citizens were Christians and Evangelicals.

Don't Bank on an End to Santorum's Surges

I

t is not just the nationwide presidential campaign; across the Uni

ted States, hundreds of ballot names for Congress, state legislatures and governors' mansions are testament to the rising influence of politicized Christianity.

Politicized Christianity seems to pick and choose Biblical inspiration and Christian values. They seem willing to omit that Jesus dined with the poor, lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors (despite Grover Norquist's objections). Even the biblical arch-baddie, Governor Pontius Pilate, shows pause on carrying out capital punishment.

Politicized Christianity is not just a Santorum platform; two other Republican hopefuls ejected from the race have strong ties to the movement called Dominionism: Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, and Texas Governor Rick Perry.

Dominionism is a form political Christianity whose adherents believe the faithful need to take up spiritual arms in order to assist God in his battle over the devil. This battle ranges from wrestling for control of politics, media, culture and business to extracting demons from institutions and people.

SNIP

C. Peter Wagner, a leading apostle in the New Apostolic Reformation and father of the Dominionism movement, told NPR, "Dominion has to do with authority and subduing, and it relates to society." While Wagner does not represent the full breath of the New Apostolic Reformation or the Dominionism movement, he is a strong voice in the growing mega-sector of theoretic political activism.

http://www.truth-out.org/dont-bank-e...ges/1329942514

Originally Posted by B Butler

Are you still working under the quaint assumption that individuals have rights, but corporations do not?

I think it is a mistake to consider Corporations as persons.

Originally Posted by radind

I think it is a mistake to consider Corporations as persons.

If corporations are people, then they are slaves because they are people owned by people. So does the 13th Amendment abolish corporations?

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

We failed to see how ruthless, unprincipled, and well-funded the Hard Right was in 2010... and how it could return in the face of mass apathy.

Americans have learned that Congress is as important as the Presidency -- the hard way. Many of the lessons of a 4T are hard, necessary lessons -- one of which is that one cannot assume good results just because such is our supposed heritage. The Germans thought that as cultural heirs of Bach, Schiller, and Goethe that they could never become barbarians. In the last completed 4T they became barbarians far worse than such 'uncultured' barbarians as Apaches and Zulus.

Just because Whitman and Gershwin are part of our heritage doesn't mean that our nation can't go into the cesspool of history that Germany entered in the 1930s.

Comparing the NAZI's to barbarians seems totally inadequate. They were evil and wicked.
However, you appear to imply that the threat is only from the 'hard' right.
While I agree that the USA is also vulnerable, it seems to me that the 'hard' left is equally dangerous.

Originally Posted by ziggyX65

If corporations are people, then they are slaves because they are people owned by people. So does the 13th Amendment abolish corporations?

Slaves were real persons and corporations are only legal entities that should not be thought of as persons. So , corporations have not been abolished, but their power should be restrained.

Quote, "(If you want Ron Paul to become America's next President, then the work you do for him over the next 3 MONTHS is absolutely crucial. Register as a Republican and become a Ron Paul "delegate" as soon as possible. Click below to learn more on how to become a Ron Paul delegate.)

* He has never voted to raise taxes.

* He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.

* He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.

* He has never voted to raise congressional pay.

* He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

* He voted against the Patriot Act.

* He voted against the Iraq war.

* He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t836078/

Manifest destiny

Very informative video that explains the rise of the 1%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Xh5...ature=youtu.be