Originally Posted by herbal tee

At any rate, it has become common for us to have dinner together from time to time and last night was such a time. I already knew that this person was conservative. After all, it's unlikely that a liberal retiree would choose to live around here, but I had always thought of him as a conventional Republican type. Not anymore. In the course of our conversation he revieled to me that he was not only hoping that a war with Iran would begin but that it would lead to a total economic dislocation within the US and he wanted all of this hardship to happen simply because Obama would be blamed for it all.
The only response that I could give him was the old chestnut to be careful what you wish for as all things ona global scale have unintended blowback.
To sum up the dinner ended fairly gracefully afterward, but I don't know if I want to associate, much less break bread, with this person anymore.
His soul is dark.

I thought that George W. Bush was a horrible President at the moment that he went after Valerie Plame in the aftermath of the exposure of the falsity of the Niger yellowcake report. He was suspect for some of his connections to a monstrously-corrupt corporation (Enrob) and dishonest rhetoric (most blatantly his "Healthy Forests Initiative" that any forest that lumber companies wanted to clear-cut could do so -- is "no forest" a euphemism for a "healthy forest"?). It would have been bad enough had he presented his "Ownership Society" as one in which entrepreneurs and executives had more power over workers so that there might be more wages paid (if smaller ones)... but it instead proved to mean predatory lending to get people into houses that they could never afford.

Suffice to say, we got very bad results -- two bungled wars and the worst economic meltdown in nearly eighty years. But I would have never have wished for that. I wish that he could have gotten away with wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that his "Ownership Society" didn't depend on a miracle but instead leave a great failure. It's easy to see what the civil response to President Barack Obama would have been from one of his detractors -- basically, "I hope he gets away with it because we need a few things going right".

I'm going to try not to apply this experience to others that I know around here but I feel even more outnumbered on a certain level now than I did just 24 hours ago.
In short, I now believe that if a civil war type 4T came to western SC that he would quickly turn in me and whatever other liberals have befriended him.
And I would have never have thought this about him before yesterday. :

One would think that people would recognize the danger of hatred -- and the severity of the consequences of national failure in a 4T. Do these people think that they will be somehow better off if a city like Denver is vaporized?

I know that many people still harbor a visceral hatred of the President. But shouldn't he be a point of pride?

Well, keep your gas tank full. You might need to take a trip to Columbus... Ohio, that is.

Pastor Rick Warren puts Romney's religion on display. Some evangelicals may start to support Obama? All Romney would have to do is get an ultra conservative Christian running mate and the election year would get even more interesting.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/04/08/and-so-its-begun-pastor-rick-warren-puts-romneys-religion-on-display-evangelicals-starting-to-support-obama-video/

Yeah, one would normally expect Republicans to rally around the nominee - no matter who - but I'm seeing a lot of recent posts on conservative accounts that basically say "Supporting Romney is the same as promoting a heathen cult. Obama might be bad, but you'll basically go to hell if you vote for Romney"

Originally Posted by Deb C

Pastor Rick Warren puts Romney's religion on display. Some evangelicals may start to support Obama? All Romney would have to do is get an ultra conservative Christian running mate and the election year would get even more interesting.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/04/08/and-so-its-begun-pastor-rick-warren-puts-romneys-religion-on-display-evangelicals-starting-to-support-obama-video/

The dangerous cult isn't the weird discoveries of Joseph Smith. It's the ugly, cruel cult of wealth, mostly cadged from Ayn Rand, that is so dangerous and destructive.

Is libertarism the future of the Republican party? 538.COM has a good run down on how Ron Paul, and the possibly rising libertarian wing of the GOP, did in 2012 vs. 2008.

Originally Posted by 538.com

Mr. Paul this year has far exceeded the accomplishments of his 2008 campaign, reflecting, perhaps, how much the mood of the country has shifted...

...Mr. Paul’s share of the overall vote has more than doubled. He won 10 percent of the cumulative vote in the 32 states that have voted so far this year. In the states that voted on or before Super Tuesday in 2008 (27 states), Mr. Paul received just 4 percent.

In both elections, Mr. Paul performed better in time-intensive caucuses than in primaries, helped by the enthusiasm of his supporters. Although, the difference was less pronounced this year. Mr. Paul finished almost a full spot higher, on average, in caucuses than in primaries in 2008. In 2012, he averaged about a half spot higher in caucuses.

One area where the Paul campaign has not improved is fund-raising.

Mr. Paul has actually raised slightly less money than he did during the 2008 race. From January 2007 through the end of February 2008, he raised $34,712,765.62. From January 2011 through February 2012, he collected $34,354,651.01 (although the “super PAC” supporting Mr. Paul during the current cycle, Endorse Liberty, has also raised over $4 million.

Those are the basics. There's a little more in there about the Tea Party and the general mood of the country.
So, are the Republicans becoming more libertarian?
The answer is a resounding maybe. : :

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

The dangerous cult isn't the weird discoveries of Joseph Smith. It's the ugly, cruel cult of wealth, mostly cadged from Ayn Rand, that is so dangerous and destructive.

I'm in agreement.

The Republicans have always had a streak of libertarianism that came from their Free Soil roots. Since WW II, it has strengthened wrt to domestic policy.

Ron Paul has attempted to expand the libertarian streak from its focus on (Democratic) domestic policy to foreign policy with his Taftian foreign policy views. His message has been resoundingly rejected by rank and file Republicans. I don't see any evidence for increasing libertarianism. Besides the time is wrong for this, libertarianism is more of an Awakening thing, with its focus on the inner world of the individual.

Originally Posted by Mikebert

The Republicans have always had a streak of libertarianism that came from their Free Soil roots. Since WW II, it has strengthened wrt to domestic policy.

Ron Paul has attempted to expand the libertarian streak from its focus on (Democratic) domestic policy to foreign policy with his Taftian foreign policy views. His message has been resoundingly rejected by rank and file Republicans. I don't see any evidence for increasing libertarianism. Besides the time is wrong for this, libertarianism is more of an Awakening thing, with its focus on the inner world of the individual.

Good points, and I tend to agree about the libertarian timing. We're just in the wrong place to start down that road.

I do find it interesting that the moement, such as it is, has real resiliance. While we're handing out gun permits like candy, we're also spying on each other and throwing away the very idea of a guaranteed right to privacy. The libertarian right \seems focused on guns and no regulation of business. The livbertarian left wants a wide-open internet and legal weed. Unless you can convince the gun crowd to get high, that's a clash brewing for the future, without a doubt.

"The dangerous cult isn't the weird discoveries of Joseph Smith. It's the ugly, cruel cult of wealth, mostly cadged from Ayn Rand, that is so dangerous and destructive."

What is not sufficiently recognized is how well-developed and entrenched this cult has become, because it has taken (thanks to folks like Rand) the form of free market trickle-down economics. That is really what the cult consists of. Ideology rules politics. Until we debunk this unconsciously-held ideology, we are sunk in the bunk.

Welp, Santorum just dropped out and Obama has passed 270 on RCP's electoral map. The few remaining toss-up states seem to also lean blue, but there's generally a lack of polling data to draw any conclusions yet. Not that it matters.

So... now what?

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Welp, Santorum just dropped out and Obama has passed 270 on RCP's electoral map. The few remaining toss-up states seem to also lean blue, but there's generally a lack of polling data to draw any conclusions yet. Not that it matters.

So... now what?

I'm not sure why they moved PA and Ohio to leaning Obama; there's no new poll data according to RCP's own lists.

Polls shift, and some independents haven't really tuned in or know Romney well enough yet. The race is not over.

Of course, the real race is for congress, and it is not certain that Americans (especially independent middle Americans) are ready to part with trickle-down ideology and move back into the progressive camp; or even to vote out the extreme right-wing idiot congress they put in in 2010.

With a 6 point margin and 90% of polls showing an Obama lead, I was kinda wondering what took them so long

Rick Sanctimonious has just withdrawn from the race for the Republican nomination.

With his departure some of the ugliest political rhetoric also vanishes. I think that Americans increasingly saw why he lost his bid for re-election to the Senate in 2006.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Good points, and I tend to agree about the libertarian timing. We're just in the wrong place to start down that road.

I do find it interesting that the moement, such as it is, has real resiliance. While we're handing out gun permits like candy, we're also spying on each other and throwing away the very idea of a guaranteed right to privacy.

Ah, but you show exactly why the movement has resilience: The federal government is rapidly losing popular support, and the traditional Democrat vs. Republican paradigm is just two subtle variations on the same corporate empire. In response, the government is preparing a pre-emptive counter-insurgency against domestic unrest, but such actions tend to backfire in the war for hearts & minds.

So this is where the libertarian left enters the story.

The elite/ownership class is almost wholly dependent on the favors and protection of the political class, and they're not going to just give it up without a fight. For decades we've debated if big business or big government is the problem, but now the answer is starting to look like a simple "Yes, they are both the problem."

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Unless you can convince the gun crowd to get high, that's a clash brewing for the future, without a doubt.

Sounds like fun... just not necessarily at the same time

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Rick Sanctimonious has just withdrawn from the race for the Republican nomination.

With his departure some of the ugliest political rhetoric also vanishes. I think that Americans increasingly saw why he lost his bid for re-election to the Senate in 2006.

Now you're starting to go down Playwrite's road with the political nicknames. Some jokes are witty once. Thereafter you get an infinite series of 1, 1/2, 1/4 ... the relevant unit being "one wit."

Just my $0.02.

Pat - yes, I DID eat Alpo Chow for Mother Dogs for lunch. Why do you ask?

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Now you're starting to go down Playwrite's road with the political nicknames. Some jokes are witty once. Thereafter you get an infinite series of 1, 1/2, 1/4 ... the relevant unit being "one wit."

Just my $0.02.

Pat - yes, I DID eat Alpo Chow for Mother Dogs for lunch. Why do you ask?

Don't worry. We won't have Rick Santorum to snipe at for a long time.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Now you're starting to go down Playwrite's road with the political nicknames. Some jokes are witty once. Thereafter you get an infinite series of 1, 1/2, 1/4 ... the relevant unit being "one wit."

Perhaps you didn't notice but I have moved on. It's now "tied up in cognitive dissonance knots" (TM pending) which is descriptive of action rather than a noun or adjective.

If my efforts at restraint are not going to be recognize, why should I bother?


Just my $0.02.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Rick Sanctimonious has just withdrawn from the race for the Republican nomination.

With his departure some of the ugliest political rhetoric also vanishes. I think that Americans increasingly saw why he lost his bid for re-election to the Senate in 2006.

There was also the fact that he was getting away with representing PA without actually residing at his residence in the state or sending his children to schools in the state...

Originally Posted by wikipedia, take it as you will

Santorum was mired in a residence controversy after stating that he spent only "maybe a month a year" at his Pennsylvania home. Critics pointed out that Santorum himself had once denounced his former opponent U.S. Representative Doug Walgren for living away from his House district.

That and he just didn't know when to keep his mouth shut.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

There was also the fact that he (Santorum) was getting away with representing PA without actually residing at his residence in the state or sending his children to schools in the state...

Howe and Strauss laid out the usual strengths and weaknesses of generational types. Idealist generations could be highly educated, cultured, and decisive. They can also be extremely arrogant, ruthless, ad selfish.

Santorum certainly showed the vices.

A major sticking point in our politics today, is that people don't want to admit that they need to pay taxes, and that taxes support valuable activities by the government. Libertarians are at the forefront of those pushing this blindness to the needs of a workable commonwealth.

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

Rick Sanctimonious has just withdrawn from the race for the Republican nomination.

I thought that was a fine and most appropriate nickname.

I suppose this comment might belong on the culture thread wars, but frankly that thread is scary to me. So I'm staying completely away from it.

I just caught Hillary Rosen's comment about how Ann Romney doesn't know anything about economic issues because she is a stay at home mom has never worked outside of the home. Well, Hillary, you are on my shit list today. This is a WTF moment for me. I, along with every other stay at home mother I know, handle on all the finances in the household. We are the ones who do the shopping, pay the bills and manage the household budget. As a matter of fact, when filling out information which requires my husband to state his earnings, he has to ask me how much he makes. I also take care of our taxes. I don't think my husband has even seen tax return in 5 years. So Hillary Rosen, open mouth and insert foot...And people wonder why some people see Democrats as elitist. Hillary Rosen fits that category today. She came off as acting superior to stay at moms in her snotty comments.

However, that being said, I don't think this will hurt Obama as some people on the news are suggesting. He wasn't the one that said it. And I would hope that Obama or someone in his staff have gotten to her and told her shut her damn mouth.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I suppose this comment might belong on the culture thread wars, but frankly that thread is scary to me. So I'm staying completely away from it.

I just caught Hillary Rosen's comment about how Ann Romney doesn't know anything about economic issues because she is a stay at home mom has never worked outside of the home. Well, Hillary, you are on my shit list today. This is a WTF moment for me. I, along with every other stay at home mother I know, handle on all the finances in the household. We are the ones who do the shopping, pay the bills and manage the household budget. As a matter of fact, when filling out information which requires my husband to state his earnings, he has to ask me how much he makes. I also take care of our taxes. I don't think my husband has even seen tax return in 5 years. So Hillary Rosen, open mouth and insert foot...And people wonder why some people see Democrats as elitist. Hillary Rosen fits that category today. She came off as acting superior to stay at moms in her snotty comments.

However, that being said, I don't think this will hurt Obama as some people on the news are suggesting. He wasn't the one that said it. And I would hope that Obama or someone in his staff have gotten to her and told her shut her damn mouth.

I have ton's of respect for the stay at home mom's like yourself.

Originally Posted by Exile 67'

I have ton's of respect for the stay at home mom's like yourself.

I agree 100%!

Ms. Rosen has a history of being somewhat of a loose cannon.