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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 332







Post#8276 at 05-25-2012 12:59 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by puravidavid View Post
After November's elections, this is certain, the continuing demand for change will oust incumbant politicians viewed as poor leaders, a projection of the mass social mood onto those hapless men and women. These so-called leaders are tools of the global corporations who's executives rarely get voted out by docile shareholders, leaving them ample continuity to exert the dominant influence over tax and spending legislation. Why else, without massive taxpayer subsidies, has their concentration of income and wealth grown as it has over the past 30 years, while all else have stagnted?
Because, as Gallup noted today, almost "half of Americans are economically conservative." Wool is pulled over their eyes; they can't see the truth. The media is not solely responsible for the peoples' own stupidity and mis-directed resentment. Too many have embraced the Reagan/Bush philosophy that corporations are "free enterprise" and should therefore be allowed to do as they wish, and thus get their (primarily Republican) politicians elected, and thus get their way over taxes, spending, regulations, whatever. But there is no trickle-down effect, only a trickle up of pain, inequality and injustice.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#8277 at 05-28-2012 12:15 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Because, as Gallup noted today, almost "half of Americans are economically conservative." Wool is pulled over their eyes; they can't see the truth. The media is not solely responsible for the peoples' own stupidity and mis-directed resentment. Too many have embraced the Reagan/Bush philosophy that corporations are "free enterprise" and should therefore be allowed to do as they wish, and thus get their (primarily Republican) politicians elected, and thus get their way over taxes, spending, regulations, whatever. But there is no trickle-down effect, only a trickle up of pain, inequality and injustice.
Because many of them have been paying attention to FoX "News" Channel, a propaganda system as resolute and doctrinaire as was in its day -- but far slicker. People either watch practically none of it (and find themselves on the other side) or rely almost exclusively. The Right has learned how to get people to let its chosen media (to which I add people like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck) do the thinking for them.

At least Pravda was dull enough to allow a sort of malaise to set in; people got cynical and started to read between the lines. FoX Propaganda Channel doesn't let that happen. People too intellectually lazy to do their own thinking become slaves in all but name or, if they are privileged enough, become the well-compensated enforcers. People who admire the American Revolution and our Constitution need remind themselves that the people who spurred the Revolution and who designed our Constitution thought before they acted.

Quote Originally Posted by Satan incarnate
“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.”
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/how_...nk/221282.html
Last edited by pbrower2a; 05-28-2012 at 12:18 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8278 at 05-28-2012 05:18 PM by JonLaw [at Hurricane Alley joined Oct 2010 #posts 186]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
While there is no actual cost to us for federal debt (no tax increases, no inflation), there is a cost to the private sector from diminished interest payments on US Treasury bonds. It is a deflationary headwind that very few recognize.
There's a cost to older people who try to rely on savings. They get no interest on their money.
The future always casts a shadow on the present.







Post#8279 at 05-29-2012 02:42 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JonLaw View Post
There's a cost to older people who try to rely on savings. They get no interest on their money.
Yep, older people, households, are part of the private sector and as noted lose the interest payments - again, that is a cost and it is deflationary.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#8280 at 06-03-2012 01:37 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Florida Voter Purge Will Continue, Defying Federal Warning

This really pisses me off. If I were President and this BS were happening I would be sending in the National Guard in order to enforce the Voting Rights Act and protect the people of Florida from Governor Skeletor.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8281 at 06-03-2012 06:41 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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The rats are starting to flee the sinking ship S.S. Obama....

Obama has lost Maureen Dowd.....



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/op...ml?ref=opinion


Even Bob Schrum admits, Obama cannot even run on his record. His only chance is trying to tear down Romney

http://nationaljournal.com/2012-pres...ecord-20120603







Post#8282 at 06-04-2012 04:39 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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With the declining fortunes of the American economy, Obama's re-election chances are sinking rapidly on In-Trade. Once at 60 they are now down to 53.2

http://nation.foxnews.com/president-...anking-intrade







Post#8283 at 06-04-2012 10:19 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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I'm not feeling too optimistic about Wisconsin tomorrow, and I'm wondering whatever happened to Wisconsin.

Our current economic woes are mostly due to the firings of public employees over the past year-plus by the Tea Party. Nothing can be done about the economy because the voters were so stupid that they put in the idiot Tea Party Congress that blocks any action. And so the economy stalls, and I wonder whether the voters will be stupid again and blame Obama, instead of the ridiculous Tea Party (and their own mistake in Nov.2010) that is causing the problem.

How long will it be before our 31-year trickle-down nightmare is over? When will America be able to move on again? Probably not until the 2020s......
Last edited by Eric the Green; 06-04-2012 at 10:25 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#8284 at 06-05-2012 06:45 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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The recall election is today. The most recent poll shows the contest within the margin of error.

Special elections now tend to favor Republicans because Republicans are older. The current wisdom is that Scott Walker squeaks through. All bets are off. Scott Walker is so abrasive a character that few can fail to have opinions of him.

It would have been far better if the incendiary rhetoric had been kept out of a single election, but Scott Walker is an abrasive extremist willing to demonize much of the electorate. Democracy does not thrive when politicians in power demonize a large part of the electorate, when elected officials sell out large parts of the populace to interests that have bought their election, and when outside interests 'buy' stealth candidates. Our system is designed to represent people on a geographic interest instead of upon economic interests from elsewhere and On High. Government that represents economic interests in a pre-arranged norm is a variant, in practice, of the horrible perversion of democracy that has the political f-word attached. America was never intended to be a Corporate State, and it is worth recognizing that American military leaders smashed the nascent institutions of the Corporate State in Germany, Italy, and Japan after World War II

This election will leave bitter recriminations for a long time in Wisconsin.

We have checks and balances in our system, and the best check-and-balance is a populace that recognizes its stake in a political tradition. The willingness to allow government to become captive to outside special interests is a severe compromise of federalism -- and allows the Corporatism that formalizes the power of economic elites who recognize no duties of humanity except toward themselves.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 06-05-2012 at 09:11 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8285 at 06-05-2012 06:52 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I'm not feeling too optimistic about Wisconsin tomorrow, and I'm wondering whatever happened to Wisconsin.

Our current economic woes are mostly due to the firings of public employees over the past year-plus by the Tea Party. Nothing can be done about the economy because the voters were so stupid that they put in the idiot Tea Party Congress that blocks any action. And so the economy stalls, and I wonder whether the voters will be stupid again and blame Obama, instead of the ridiculous Tea Party (and their own mistake in Nov.2010) that is causing the problem.

How long will it be before our 31-year trickle-down nightmare is over? When will America be able to move on again? Probably not until the 2020s......
We will find out tonight, at least in Wisconsin. The rest of America? November 6 and 7. If we are fortunate the Tea Party types go crashing down. If they consolidate power -- then I am glad that I have no children to suffer for their paymasters, let alone become their enforcers in a Fourth Reich.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8286 at 06-05-2012 12:24 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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The Big Con and the resulting Big Dilemma

Krugman (as usual) has an insightful piece that what we have gotten for the last 4 years is exactly what the GOP is offering for the next 4 years - slashed federal spending and tax cuts -

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/04/op...n-economy.html

This Republican Economy

What should be done about the economy? Republicans claim to have the answer: slash spending and cut taxes. What they hope voters won’t notice is that that’s precisely the policy we’ve been following the past couple of years. Never mind the Democrat in the White House; for all practical purposes, this is already the economic policy of Republican dreams.

So the Republican electoral strategy is, in effect, a gigantic con game: it depends on convincing voters that the bad economy is the result of big-spending policies that President Obama hasn’t followed (in large part because the G.O.P. wouldn’t let him), and that our woes can be cured by pursuing more of the same policies that have already failed.

For some reason, however, neither the press nor Mr. Obama’s political team has done a very good job of exposing the con.

What do I mean by saying that this is already a Republican economy? Look first at total government spending — federal, state and local. Adjusted for population growth and inflation, such spending has recently been falling at a rate not seen since the demobilization that followed the Korean War.

How is that possible? Isn’t Mr. Obama a big spender? Actually, no; there was a brief burst of spending in late 2009 and early 2010 as the stimulus kicked in, but that boost is long behind us. Since then it has been all downhill. Cash-strapped state and local governments have laid off teachers, firefighters and police officers; meanwhile, unemployment benefits have been trailing off even though unemployment remains extremely high.

Over all, the picture for America in 2012 bears a stunning resemblance to the great mistake of 1937, when F.D.R. prematurely slashed spending, sending the U.S. economy — which had actually been recovering fairly fast until that point — into the second leg of the Great Depression. In F.D.R.’s case, however, this was an unforced error, since he had a solidly Democratic Congress. In President Obama’s case, much though not all of the responsibility for the policy wrong turn lies with a completely obstructionist Republican majority in the House.

That same obstructionist House majority effectively blackmailed the president into continuing all the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, so that federal taxes as a share of G.D.P. are near historic lows — much lower, in particular, than at any point during Ronald Reagan’s presidency.

As I said, for all practical purposes this is already a Republican economy.

As an aside, I think it’s worth pointing out that although the economy’s performance has been disappointing, to say the least, none of the disasters Republicans predicted have come to pass. Remember all those assertions that budget deficits would lead to soaring interest rates? Well, U.S. borrowing costs have just hit a record low. And remember those dire warnings about inflation and the “debasement” of the dollar? Well, inflation remains low, and the dollar has been stronger than it was in the Bush years.

Put it this way: Republicans have been warning that we were about to turn into Greece because President Obama was doing too much to boost the economy; Keynesian economists like myself warned that we were, on the contrary, at risk of turning into Japan because he was doing too little. And Japanification it is, except with a level of misery the Japanese never had to endure.

So why don’t voters know any of this?

Part of the answer is that far too much economic reporting is still of the he-said, she-said variety, with dueling quotes from hired guns on either side. But it’s also true that the Obama team has consistently failed to highlight Republican obstruction, perhaps out of a fear of seeming weak. Instead, the president’s advisers keep turning to happy talk, seizing on a few months’ good economic news as proof that their policies are working — and then ending up looking foolish when the numbers turn down again. Remarkably, they’ve made this mistake three times in a row: in 2010, 2011 and now once again.

At this point, however, Mr. Obama and his political team don’t seem to have much choice. They can point with pride to some big economic achievements, above all the successful rescue of the auto industry, which is responsible for a large part of whatever job growth we are managing to get. But they’re not going to be able to sell a narrative of overall economic success. Their best bet, surely, is to do a Harry Truman, to run against the “do-nothing” Republican Congress that has, in reality, blocked proposals — for tax cuts as well as more spending — that would have made 2012 a much better year than it’s turning out to be.

For that, in the end, is the best argument against Republicans’ claims that they can fix the economy. The fact is that we have already seen the Republican economic future — and it doesn’t work.
I highlighted the part that the GOP obstruction also caused state governments to fail so as to provide the proper context for the vote in Wisconsin.

The GOP was particularly vocal and successful in opposing any funds to states and local govt that has now resulted in huge dismantling of the public sector at the state and local levels. If one looks at the monthly employment reports, it is clear that the majority of the unemployment problem is now in that public sector, enough so that the top line number is negatively impacted regardless of success in private sector job growth. Given that most people, the media, focus only on the top line number, this greatly helps the GOP case in the election. On top of that, the lack of federal spending at the state/local levels is why public spending is it such dire straits as in Wisconsin and fosters the split between public workers like teachers and fire fighters with state and local taxpayers already stretched and scared from the Great Recession and the possibility of another economic contraction - fits the GOP cause perfectly.

Most of the highlights are that we are already livng the GOP economy; what's offered by them for the next 4 years is just worst.

Essentially, the GOP has banked its future on the continuing ignorance and outright stupidity of the Faux News, brain-idled American electorate. Unfortunately, it’s a solid bet.

However, it is a dilemma for even those with functioning brains, as noted by one of us with a functioning bean, Ezra Klein -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rss_ezra-klein

The Keynesian case for Romney


Even if you disagree with every one of Mitt Romney’s policies, there’s a chance he’s still the best candidate to lift the economy in 2013.
Pretty amazing to hear that from someone with a functioning brain, but hear him out -


That’s not because he [usual GOP claptrap].... It’s because if Romney is elected, Republicans won’t choose to crash the economy in 2013.
Klein explains how collapsing the economy will come about as a result of GOP purposeful obstruction causing gridlock, and then he tells us there is less likelihood of gridlock under Romney -


....There’s no reason to believe Romney could “break” gridlock. But there’s reason to believe he wouldn’t face it in the first place. Republicans control the House.

Romney and the Republicans are not likely to reach 60 seats in the Senate, but they won’t need them. The major issues on the table are budgetary. That means they can be considered using the budget reconciliation process, which can’t be filibustered. So if Republicans can maintain party unity — and they usually can — they’ll be able to govern effectively. And there’s no way that they’ll permit the Bush tax cuts to expire or the debt ceiling to lapse. Investors, knowing that, would likely stop worrying about the debt ceiling the moment a Romney win became clear.
Ezra brings up that the t-baggers could still push for smaller govt spending with resulting economic collapse -

Now, Republicans could still push the economy into recession if they pass an immediate austerity budget that slashed spending in 2013. And, given Republican rhetoric about how slashing the size of government will lead to more growth because the confidence fairy will come out and persuade businesses to spend more, you might think that’s exactly what they’ll do.

But Romney, though he often buys into that sort of nonsense while criticizing Obama, knows better.
and goes on to tell how Romney will avoid the worse of t-bagger austerity and reminds us how the historic GOP actually thinks -

“Republicans were pro-deficit, and pro-entitlement expansion under Bush and Reagan. Deficit cutting only became part of the party’s ideology under Obama.”

And, as we've seen with the latest unemployment report and Obama being the scapegoat as a result of not only ignorant and stupid electorate but forgetful, Ezra points out what is likely to come between now and November to 'seal the deal' or, more specifically, the extortion -

In a sense, Republicans are holding a gun to the economy’s head and saying, “vote for us or the recovery gets it.”

That might well prove an effective political strategy: The more they say that they’re willing to let the debt ceiling expire and the economy run over the fiscal cliff, the more businesses will pull back and households will stop spending in order to make sure they have enough cash on hand to ride out another crisis. That will further depress the economy this year, making it more likely that Romney wins, and that Republicans embrace the smooth Keynesian glide path that they’re denying Obama.
But for the longer term, Klein points out the big dilemma -

This is the logical conclusion of a system biased toward gridlock: The out-party benefits when the public feels that Washington is failing and it often has the power to make Washington fail. Which, arguably, leads to another unusual reality about this election: Even if you agree with Romney’s policies, it may be that voting for Obama, and delivering a landslide against the GOP’s economic brinksmanship, is the only way to end the dangerous appeal of strategic gridlock going forward.

So which are you more worried about? The fiscal cliff and the debt ceiling? Or the political system?

Klein blames this on a "system biased toward gridlock." He is being kind. The only reason this is even a possibility is the fact that much of the American electorate is ignorant, stupid and forgetful. The only question for both tonight and in November is - are they the majority?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#8287 at 06-05-2012 10:09 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Welcome to the Third World, Wisconsin. Enjoy the tyranny of well-heeled heels who now own the political process in your state.

This is the template for most subsequent elections in 2012.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8288 at 06-05-2012 10:19 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Welcome to the Third World, Wisconsin. Enjoy the tyranny of well-heeled heels who now own the political process in your state.

This is the template for most subsequent elections in 2012.
You have that right! In the words of Bernie Sanders, " It's class warfare!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZg1i...ature=youtu.be
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8289 at 06-06-2012 12:04 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
You have that right! In the words of Bernie Sanders, " It's class warfare!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZg1i...ature=youtu.be
The plutocrats and tycoons expect to win and will call any resistance treason.

American democracy began to die with the horrible Supreme Court decision Citizens United, which has determined that the only relevant power is the money that corporate elites pour into the political process. If you thought Dred Scott was bad -- the classic example of a bad USSC ruling, Citizens United is infinitely worse. Dred Scott, objectively awful, merely endorsed what was already the law and disenfranchised nobody who was not already a slave in the eyes of the law. Plessy v. Ferguson? Vile, to be sure. Korematsu? Rescinded at the end of a Crisis War. Citizens United potentially makes all of us thralls to the monolithic moneyed elite. To be sure, America has always had many plutocratic elements, but at least there were interstices between competing elites. That is past. White, black, brown, red, or yellow, we may have all become subjects of the wealth of a few who need exercise no conscience. If one is an industrial worker, a farmer, a clerk, a clergyman, a government employee, or even a small business owner one can be crushed.

The Civil War Crisis ended in the complete repudiation of the Dred Scott decision and its effects. This Crisis may end with the repudiation of the effects of Citizens United. If we are lucky we Americans will resolve it ourselves with no bloodshed. If we are unfortunate we may have foreigners resolving it on our behalf -- ot have a Crisis war that culminates in a return of the world to agrarian-era poverty and the primitive technology of that era.

I was tempted to question our character... but we did abolish slavery, practically curtail child labor, give women the vote, and abolished Jim Crow practices. We are on the brink of recognizing LGBT rights. We destroyed two of the most dangerous and evil regimes that the world has known - simultaneously! (Quick reminder -- as I post this it will be the 68th anniversary of the most righteous invasion in human history). All of that required courage -- the risk of being beaten, crippled, and killed at the most and at least ridicule and ruin.

I expect the Hard Right to become even more shameless in its arrogance -- like Scott Walker attributing his political success to God instead of to the out-of-state interests who seek to turn every state, every county, every congressional district, every city, and every household into a colony to be economically raped.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8290 at 06-06-2012 11:35 AM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Florida Voter Purge Will Continue, Defying Federal Warning

This really pisses me off. If I were President and this BS were happening I would be sending in the National Guard in order to enforce the Voting Rights Act and protect the people of Florida from Governor Skeletor.
-Uh, last time I checked, foreigners aren't supposed to vote in US elections. The Obamanation has no legitimate beef here.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
...Our current economic woes are mostly due to the firings of public employees over the past year-plus by the Tea Party. Nothing can be done about the economy because the voters were so stupid that they put in the idiot Tea Party Congress that blocks any action. And so the economy stalls...
-No.

The Obama stimulus destroyed wealth rather than creating, as PW's own figures proved:

Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
According to Playwrite's sources:

2009 2nd Qtr: 1.5%
2009 3rd Qtr: 2.7%
2009 4th Qtr: 3.5%
2010 1st Qtr: 4.2%
2010 2nd Qtr: 4.6%


...and using their very highest assessments (out of 9 estimates, all of the above come from the CBO's "high" estimate), and given that the US yearly GDP is $14.772T, then the amount of quarterly GDP gain resulting from the Obama stimulus is the following (decimals rounded up):


2009 2nd Qtr: $56B
2009 3rd Qtr: $100B
2009 4th Qtr: $130B
2010 1st Qtr: $156B
2010 2nd Qtr: $170B

Total: $612B...

So the final result of the stimulus, calculated on the most favorable out of NINE (9) estimates, is a gain of $612B.

What was the up-front pricetag of the Obamulous, again?

Lets say it was $666B. So, in Playdude's world, if you take $666B, "invest" it for 6 Quarters, and end up with $612B as a high end estimate- an 8.0% drop for 6 quarters, or a roughly 5.3% drop per year, he'd call that a successful investment, and would claim that the only thing wrong with it was that we didn't dump--I mean--"invest" enough in it.
I need a reminder. Playwrong posted that in order to defend Obomanomics?
...
Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
...And so the economy stalls, and I wonder whether the voters will be stupid again and blame Obama, instead of the ridiculous Tea Party (and their own mistake in Nov.2010) that is causing the problem....
...in addition, economic policies take 6-24 months to take effect:


http://books.google.com/books?id=Jpu...effect&f=false

Economics: A Contemporary Introduction (McEachern)

Once a policy has been implemented, there is an effectiveness lag before the full impact of the policy registers on the economy. With monetary policy, the lag between a change in the federal funds rate and the change in aggregate demand and output can take months to a year or more. Fiscal policy, once enacted, usually takes 3 to 6 months to take effect and between 9 to 18 months to register its full effect.



...Obama has been in charge since JAN 2009. The Dems have run the US Senate since 2007. The economy sucked in 2010 before the Tea Party got into the House. So much for your theory. Sadly for you, Conservatism is reality based.







Post#8291 at 06-06-2012 07:04 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
-Uh, last time I checked, foreigners aren't supposed to vote in US elections. The Obamanation has no legitimate beef here.
Florida had its infamous "felon lists" which cast a huge net of disqualifications of people who 'had a similar name' to another who was disqualified as a felon. As a rule the person found that he was disqualified only when he went to vote. There was no warning and no means of appeal. Such may have helped us get a dreadful President in 2000. Also... the Republican Party used caging lists that basically required an addressee to respond lest he be removed from the rolls. Such people could be college students or soldiers. Obviously Florida has numerous voters of suspect residence -- like whether some snowbird is really a resident of Florida or of some other state -- but the Republicans didn't target such people.

The technique might not be the same this time, but in view of a Governor widely held in contempt as a poor leader but intensely partisan... and discrimination on behalf of a partisan advantage is obviously suspect.



The Obama stimulus destroyed wealth rather than creating, as PW's own figures proved
You must have never taken any statistics class. Economic follies usually have delayed effects, and the corrupt boom in housing combined with predatory lending destroyed capital that could have been better used elsewhere while creating illusory wealth whose value would plummet in 2007-2009. Dubya and Congressional Republicans rode the tide but lost for reasons other than the collapse of the economic boom. Faulting Congressional Democrats for failing to rescue a giant scam is worse than blaming the last few years of alcoholism for all of the cirrhosis.

The stats seem to show that President Obama has at the least done nothing to thwart a solid economic recovery.



...in addition, economic policies take 6-24 months to take effect:


http://books.google.com/books?id=Jpu...effect&f=false

Economics: A Contemporary Introduction (McEachern)

Once a policy has been implemented, there is an effectiveness lag before the full impact of the policy registers on the economy. With monetary policy, the lag between a change in the federal funds rate and the change in aggregate demand and output can take months to a year or more. Fiscal policy, once enacted, usually takes 3 to 6 months to take effect and between 9 to 18 months to register its full effect.



...Obama has been in charge since JAN 2009. The Dems have run the US Senate since 2007. The economy sucked in 2010 before the Tea Party got into the House. So much for your theory. Sadly for you, Conservatism is reality based.
You contradict yourself. But that said, impose Tea Party policies and no level of economic growth could achieve anything other than extreme poverty for many and extreme indulgence for a few. How did that work in Russia a century ago?
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8292 at 06-07-2012 02:58 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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The problem with "class warfare" is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander: Those who don't have generous health care and pension benefits can be just as envious of the unionized public employees who do as everyone supposedly is of the so-called 1% - and that was the lesson that got driven home big-time last night, not only in Wisconsin, but of all places, San Jose, where an anti-public-employee union ballot measure passed with 71% of the vote.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#8293 at 06-07-2012 07:57 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by summer in the fall View Post
Few people would be "qualified" to be president in this time in history. People can only be led to the extent they are willing to be led. And right now with no war* going on, people without singular purpose are still at each others throats. To me, Obama is doing everything he can to stave off a civil war -- this is something he campaigned on so as I see it he's doing his job. I also see his Xer qualities coming through and it being a bit difficult for many of us to handle. People keep bringing up his blackness as a reason he can't go apesh*t like GWB or the Clintons. But the reason he can't go apesh*t is he's not a Boomer. Someone said before that Boomers view authority as sacred and flip out when they are left in charge [picture Will Ferrell as "W" on SNL running away crying "Where are all the grown-ups?"]. As soon as Obama started campaigning, before knowing a thing about generational theory, I recognized the quality. He was like the kids encouraging the rest of the unsupervised latchkey gang to work together and trust in their own ability. Clinton was like the frightened mama bear clawing at everyone to protect the helpless babies. It's a generational thing and if I didn't completely relate to Obama I'd probably be gnawing my teeth too.

*As my WWII veteran Silent grandfather told me, a war is when your family and land is actively being threatened. So the majority of America's military campaigns are not really wars.
After a President who underachieved for his apparent abilities and an unmitigated disaster (the two Boomer Presidents so far), a Generation X President who acts much like one of the two Lost Presidents (he even acts as if he is in his 60s instead of being near 50) is a refreshing change... to this Boomer. He may not formulate great moral principles, but there are plenty of people who can do that. He is cautious; he is no rebel; he cooperates well with existing authority that can do good; he knows his history and can draw the appropriate lesson.

I wasn't sure whether he would be the New FDR or the New Harry Truman; the 1961 birthyear suggested some ambiguity. After all, FDR showed some clear Reactive traits; he rejected the laissez-faire economics, Christian fundamentalism, and eugenics that so characterized the mainstream of the Missionary Generation. So does President Obama. But whacking Osama bin Laden in a manner reminiscent in some ways of a gangland hit (even if the methods were all that was available and the deed is completely justified) is undeniably Reactive.

It could be that President Obama is the transition from one catastrophically-inept Boomer to the one who defines how the Crisis of 2020 is resolved. But that could be a huge achievement. Know well that Truman and Eisenhower are now generally recognized as good Presidents, if not quite in the league of Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, and TR.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8294 at 06-07-2012 10:17 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
The problem with "class warfare" is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander: Those who don't have generous health care and pension benefits can be just as envious of the unionized public employees who do as everyone supposedly is of the so-called 1% - and that was the lesson that got driven home big-time last night, not only in Wisconsin, but of all places, San Jose, where an anti-public-employee union ballot measure passed with 71% of the vote.
Democrats failed in Wisconsin because they failed Wisconsin

Here is an article that explains your thinking about the mindset of the voters.

Of course this argument is a red herring. The budget crises of state and municipal governments were not brought on by excessive pay to firemen, cops and other civil servants, but rather by a banking meltdown that has enriched those who engineered it. Housing values, and the local taxes dependent on them, are down because of financial shenanigans that wrapped mortgages into collateralized debt obligations, and that is the root cause of government red ink. But the job security and pensions of government employees make terribly convenient scapegoats at a time when so many Americans are lining up at food banks.
However, what is missing in the defeat of the Walker recall, is that Democrats also fell down on the job. Literally.

The electorate in Wisconsin, and San Diego and San Jose, Calif., that voted Tuesday against public employee unions were not expressing a rational response to the crisis, but rather a tantrum stoked by the lavishly financed demagogues of the right. The voters bought their story because the opportunism of the Democratic Party leadership has left progressives without a believable alternative to the tea party’s narrative. Indeed, job creation became a bigger issue than collective bargaining in the Wisconsin race, and the dismal national unemployment figures that came out just days before the election didn’t hurt the Republicans’ cause.

By refusing to campaign in the state before Tuesday’s vote, President Obama proved he has no heart for engaging in a real debate about the sources of our economic crisis. As Bloomberg News reported in an editorial titled “All Eyes on Wisconsin, Except Obama’s,” the president made two fundraising stops within 50 miles of the Wisconsin border last Friday, but studiously avoided entering the state he easily carried in the 2008 election. Instead of visiting, Obama tweeted: “It’s Election Day in Wisconsin tomorrow, and I’m standing by Tom Barrett. He’d make an outstanding governor. -bo.” Not a word of support for the unions that so slavishly support the president and spent millions propping up Barrett.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...nsin_20120607/
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8295 at 06-07-2012 10:49 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
After a President who underachieved for his apparent abilities and an unmitigated disaster (the two Boomer Presidents so far), a Generation X President who acts much like one of the two Lost Presidents (he even acts as if he is in his 60s instead of being near 50) is a refreshing change... to this Boomer. He may not formulate great moral principles, but there are plenty of people who can do that. He is cautious; he is no rebel; he cooperates well with existing authority that can do good; he knows his history and can draw the appropriate lesson.

I wasn't sure whether he would be the New FDR or the New Harry Truman; the 1961 birthyear suggested some ambiguity. After all, FDR showed some clear Reactive traits; he rejected the laissez-faire economics, Christian fundamentalism, and eugenics that so characterized the mainstream of the Missionary Generation. So does President Obama. But whacking Osama bin Laden in a manner reminiscent in some ways of a gangland hit (even if the methods were all that was available and the deed is completely justified) is undeniably Reactive.

It could be that President Obama is the transition from one catastrophically-inept Boomer to the one who defines how the Crisis of 2020 is resolved. But that could be a huge achievement. Know well that Truman and Eisenhower are now generally recognized as good Presidents, if not quite in the league of Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, and TR.
So is it a Boomer trait or Xer trait for a president to have a *Kill* list? Robert Sheer wrote an article addressing a Times piece about "Obama's Secret Kill List" that peeled the mask off the president that has been *marketed* as a progressive.


Obama has personally approved and overseen the growth of a remarkably robust assassination program in Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan based on a “kill list.” Moreover, he’s regularly done so target by target, name by name. (The Times) did not mention a recent U.S. drone strike in the Philippines that killed 15.) According to Becker and Shane, President Obama has also been involved in the use of a fraudulent method of counting drone kills, one that unrealistically deemphasizes civilian deaths.

Historically speaking, this is all passing strange. TheTimes calls Obama’s role in the drone killing machine “without precedent in presidential history.” And that’s accurate.


Is it an Xer trait or Boomer trait to deem any male over a certain age, that is killed in one of those drone attacks, a combatant?

Without the help of or any oversight from the American people or their elected representatives, he alone is now responsible for regular killings thousands of miles away, including those of civilians and even children He is, in other words, if not a king, at least the king of American assassinations. On that score, his power is total and completely unchecked. He can prescribe death for anyone “nominated,” choosing any of the “baseball cards" (PowerPoint bios) on that kill list and then order the drones to take them (or others in the neighborhood) out.



Last edited by Deb C; 06-07-2012 at 11:04 AM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8296 at 06-07-2012 11:28 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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I think sociopathy is something that doesn't restrict itself to any particular generation, Deb.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#8297 at 06-07-2012 11:31 AM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I think sociopathy is something that doesn't restrict itself to any particular generation, Deb.
Indeed! That's my assessment as well.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8298 at 06-07-2012 12:11 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I think sociopathy is something that doesn't restrict itself to any particular generation, Deb.
No question. Every generation has its gangsters, serial killers, political thugs, and commercial predators.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8299 at 06-07-2012 01:22 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I think sociopathy is something that doesn't restrict itself to any particular generation, Deb.
Going by his personal life, I highly doubt Obama is a sociopath. He has just succumbed to the "ends justify the mean" tempatation.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8300 at 06-07-2012 01:28 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Going by his personal life, I highly doubt Obama is a sociopath. He has just succumbed to the "ends justify the mean" tempatation.
Sociopaths aren't incapable of living outwardly-normal lives. It just takes a bit more effort for them. But in any case, healthy people aren't able to coldly and deliberately make a life of mass-slaughter of other people. Such a thing cannot coexist with a normal human capacity for empathy -- 'temptation' only gets you so far, and it's not nearly so far as that.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
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