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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 336







Post#8376 at 07-17-2012 04:28 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Okay. I'll trade you one meow for every oink and we'll call it square.
How sweet. This is an activist's dream; people forgiving one another.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8377 at 07-18-2012 06:07 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Any valid manifestation of conservatism must offer the common person something worth protecting from radical assault or foreign takeover.
And if it doesn't, the destigmatization of treason that we saw in the Boomer Awakening could come back to haunt conservatism catastrophically in this Crisis - especially since, when it comes to economics, Islamic radicalism is in effect Marxism without the atheism.



It will take time for people in 'conservative' religions to discover that Devil-take-the-hindmost economics characteristic of the Hard Right literally pushes people to the Devil (vice) just to survive. Economic objectivism is as anti-religious as Marxism (Ayn Rand was as hostile to religion as Karl Marx) and offers people no reason to not sell themselves to vice just to survive. Under extreme economic distress, family strictures against vices lead many to violate conservative values on sexuality -- most notably against selling out to prostitution. Ayn Rand, due to her hostility to both formal religion and to communitarianism, is at least as incompatible with Mormonism as is Karl Marx.

People with 'conservative' religions can vote for liberal politics.

But it would be awesome - a word I have an understandable weakness for (!) - if liberals didn't have to be so G-d damned in-your-face anti-religious (and anti-patriotic). Stories like the one we had in Brooklyn, NY recently with the Lee Greenwood vs. Justin Bieber flap we could do very well without, thank you.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#8378 at 07-18-2012 11:38 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
(to me)

Any valid manifestation of conservatism must offer the common person something worth protecting from radical assault or foreign takeover.
And if it doesn't, the destigmatization of treason that we saw in the Boomer Awakening could come back to haunt conservatism catastrophically in this Crisis - especially since, when it comes to economics, Islamic radicalism is in effect Marxism without the atheism.
The assumption in the Boom Awakening was that people who disparaged the War in Vietnam were mostly well-intentioned people who did not accept the official demonization of the Soviet Union and its political surrogates. About everyone recognized the War in Vietnam as a futile, bungled war that could at best be a permanent stalemate good for the profits of military contractors and bad for cannon fodder.

Paradoxically the fall of South Vietnam to the Vietcong and the NVA was the best thing that could have happened to American foreign policy. The Sino-Soviet split began in earnest, and American foreign policy at its best played up that split. Unintended consequences?

...Some of the most damaging traitors of the 2T and 3T (John Walker, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen) posed as conservative, Establishment types. Such later turncoats as Lindh, Gadahn, and Awlaki had no involvement in 2T causes. Islamic extremism has probably replaced Communism as a likely direction for Americans with extreme disillusion and enmity with America. The problem is that Islamic extremism (which is far from monolithic) has huge cultural baggage to go with it.

(to me)

It will take time for people in 'conservative' religions to discover that Devil-take-the-hindmost economics characteristic of the Hard Right literally pushes people to the Devil (vice) just to survive. Economic objectivism is as anti-religious as Marxism (Ayn Rand was as hostile to religion as Karl Marx) and offers people no reason to not sell themselves to vice just to survive. Under extreme economic distress, family strictures against vices lead many to violate conservative values on sexuality -- most notably against selling out to prostitution. Ayn Rand, due to her hostility to both formal religion and to communitarianism, is at least as incompatible with Mormonism as is Karl Marx.

People with 'conservative' religions can vote for liberal politics.
But it would be awesome - a word I have an understandable weakness for (!) - if liberals didn't have to be so G-d damned in-your-face anti-religious (and anti-patriotic). Stories like the one we had in Brooklyn, NY recently with the Lee Greenwood vs. Justin Bieber flap we could do very well without, thank you.
Militancy of any kind is usually obnoxious. I pay no attention to Lee Greenwood or Justin Bieber, so I can't say much about the specific event. Eventually the political basis of this Crisis era will depend upon liberals making alliances with people now unlikely... but proletarian white religion in the South is not that different in theology from proletarian black religion in the South.

The economic elites in the South are no less rapacious and abusive than those in the North. They have successfully created a romantic myth that hedge-fund managers and corporate executives can never create about themselves. Part of that myth (Gone With the Wind) is that the Southern elite males honor femininity, at least of white women even from modest backgrounds. Break that myth and the connection between Southern elites and working-class southern whites implodes.

The wisest liberals know enough to not ridicule religions. "This is what the Bible says and this is what your exploiters do" is the wise approach to white working-class Southerners. When liberals get that the South will be as politically liberal as it was when it catapulted Jimmy Carter to the Presidency heavily on a coalition of working-class Southern whites and blacks. Southern blacks are not enough to bring liberal ideas to power in the South.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8379 at 07-19-2012 12:38 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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The Titans, Ascendant

There really ought to have been more incredulity that, four years after an economic meltdown caused primarily by the financial titans of the great Wall Street casino, we would be presented with a nominee for president that hailed from the very same industry, and made his money in some of the very same ways. That on the heels of yet another loosening of the rules attempting to keep money from thoroughly overwhelming the political process, the richest man in the race would win his primary easily, hands down, while benefiting from expensive ad campaigns targeted at picking off each of his opponents in turn. That those ad campaigns would be, in turn, financed by some of the very hedge fund managers and other financial gurus whose industry wrecked things so efficiently that they are still wrecked, even now. And that the primary policy battles of this election would be, indeed, whether or not our tax structures were sufficiently kowtowing to those financial titans.

It has only been four years or so. That really isn't much time. Unemployment is still rampant—yes, rampant, four years ago the current level of unemployment was considered the worse case scenario, four years later it is considered the new normal, hardly even mentioned. The bank scandals have continued unabated, this time with the new suggestion that the titans of finance had been rigging the whole game from the outset. Two competing populist movements have sprung up: the tea partiers to object to taxing the rich, and the Occupy movement to demand accountability from them.

All of that has happened, and here we are. One of the two candidates for the presidency of the United States is a fabulously wealthy Wall Street financier, from a company whose success was based in large part on financial scheming at the expense of endangered companies, and on offshoring jobs, wildly supported by other Wall Street financiers, and is demanding, one, less regulation of financial institutions, and two, tax cuts for the rich that make the previous tax cuts for the rich look like chicken feed.

If Hunter S. Thompson was alive today, I do believe he would be going off the deep end right about now.


The current political riff over whether or not Barack Obama does or does not loathe businessmen and wish to do them harm is yet another in a long line of examples in which the narrative is, in variation after variation, centered on the titans of finance and what we can do for them. If the economy is suffering, it is because we have not appeased the titans properly. If there are no jobs to be had, it is because the titans are still too unsure of our intentions towards them. If there are still crooks on Wall Street, it is because entirely too many things have been declared to be illegal. Whether or not people have money to buy the things the titans are selling never comes up; it is implicit, in every debate, that the titans will decide whether we will buy things or not. When the economy crashed and things needed propping up, it was Wall Street that got propped up first. When the economy recovered, it was Wall Street that gained the largest share of the profits. According to current narrative, the entire world economy can be neatly encapsulated by the considering the desires and requirements of the top one percent of the top one percent; everyone else on the planet is a footnote.

The central banks all express alarm at unemployment; the central banks all do not a damn thing to combat it. The governments all express alarm at the behavior of the titans; the governments all do hardly a thing to forcibly reform them. And, in politics, we are trapped. The titans finance the elections, the titans underwrite the people who write the rules, the government looks to the ranks of the titans when seeking officials to lead the economic decision-making process. All of this four years after their recession. Their crash. Their failures. All of it just the same as during the four years before the collapse, or worse.

So now the current challenger for the presidency is a Wall Street financier, one who made his money by closing factories and shipping the jobs to cheaper places, or by taking control of companies, loading them with debt in order to pay his own company handsomely from that debt, and departing again—the kind of money-making that the titans think of as the most clever of all, because it extracts money from nothingness, but the kind that nearly everyone else points to as economic parasitism of the highest order. Gordon Gekko has come back to town, and by God and the titans, he's been heralded as a diplomat, and a patriot, and a generally fine fellow.

Holy hell.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8380 at 07-19-2012 12:47 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Are Hard Core GOP Supporters Fascists (and don’t even know it)?

We saw this list on Rense.com. Like they say, ignorance is bliss. We post, you decide.

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism – The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
– Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8381 at 07-19-2012 11:00 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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All that is missing is

1. political violence, and

2. private, politicized militias.

The current GOP is even worse than the GOP when Dubya was President. At least Dubya was a callow buffoon. Mitt Romney is a 100% sell-out to fascist economics.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8382 at 07-19-2012 11:07 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
All that is missing is

1. political violence, and

2. private, politicized militias.

The current GOP is even worse than the GOP when Dubya was President. At least Dubya was a callow buffoon. Mitt Romney is a 100% sell-out to fascist economics.
The late George Tiller would disagree with #1.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8383 at 07-19-2012 11:14 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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The model for the New America (Oklahoma)

So you think Wisconsin is the model of what far right-wing wants to do to America? You haven’t seen anything yet. Welcome to Oklahoma! Oklahoma is undergoing a governmental revolution. Under the guidance of ALEC and the leadership of a morally corrupt puppet governor Mary Fallin, Oklahoma is quickly becoming a gun-toting, low-tax, religious fundamentalist state.

Why haven’t you heard about a huge labor battle in Oklahoma? That is because Oklahoma workers already have had these rights stripped away from them years ago with ‘Right to Work’ laws. In essence, if you work in Oklahoma, you will make around 20% less (than if you lived in a state that wasn’t ‘Right to Work’), your employer can easily fire you without notice and you have virtually no recourse. Does this cause poverty? Yes. Oklahoma ranks near the top of the state poverty rankings. For moe about Right to Work States, see point #6.

Below are three disturbing stories that all happened in a span of a week and others that have happened within the past year. If you want to see what a radical Republican legislation is coming to your state, no need to look toward Wisconsin. Oklahoma is about a year ahead of the curve.

1. Insane Tax Cuts for Rich Proposed During Times of Huge Deficits and Underfunding of State Services


Despite the fact that the state of Oklahoma has huge deficits and it ranks at the bottom in the nation for education, roads and healthcare funding, state Republicans have proposed a tax cut that would disproportionally benefit those making over $200,000. Oklahoma is quickly nearing ‘banana republic’ status with respect to governance.

This belief that even more tax gifts to the rich (that are only now paying 15% rates) will solve our economic problems is not only disingenuous position of the rich that know better, but has reached a cult status among a group of the upper middle class ‘want-a-be’s’.

2. Oklahoma Students Shown A Movie Comparing Abortion To The Holocaust

Students at a public Oklahoma high school were given copies of a movie that compares abortion to the Holocaust after a local family asked the principal if they could distribute the DVDs to students, according to a local TV station. The movie begins with images of Hitler and concentration camps before making a comparison between the Holocaust and abortion.

The principal agreed to hand out the anti-abortion film, titled 180, if students obtained parental consent first, but the copies were handed out before parents were notified.

The Christian ministry Living Waters produced the movie. When it was released in 2011, the Anti-Defamation League called the film “one of the most offensive and outrageous abuses of the memory of the Holocaust we have seen in years".

3. Hee Haw! You can carry guns openly in Oklahoma

Gun nuts and Rednecks rejoice! Far right Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin took time off of her personal crusade to send women back to the 1800′s long enough to sign a measure Tuesday allowing for guns to be carried openly.

“Oklahoma ranks near last in education, road conditions, health and workers rights, its true. But we got guns, freedom and God. It is like paradise. Praise our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Winchester.” said a Oklahoma City resident visiting the state capital on Tuesday.

Senate Bill 1733 by Sen. Anthony Sykes, R-Moore, would allow those with a conceal-carry permit to openly carry weapons. The measure takes effect Nov. 1.

“As a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and a gun owner myself, I’m happy to sign this bill into law and grant law-abiding citizens the ability to openly carry firearms,” Fallin said. “Senate Bill 1733 sends a strong message that Oklahoma values the rights of its citizens to defend themselves, their family and their property. It does so in a responsible way, by requiring those citizens who choose to open carry to undergo both firearms training and a background check.”

4. Oklahoma State Senator Mike Reynolds Proposes Bill to Reinstate ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’


Bigots die hard, at least they do in Oklahoma apparently.

The following is an excerpt from KOTV.com

A controversial policy banned from the U.S. military may be making a comeback in Oklahoma. We’re talking about a bill being proposed in the state House of Representatives. Supporters say they’ve been asked to reinstate the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT) policy in the Oklahoma National Guard.

It’s controversial because it prohibits gays from serving openly in the military. It began during the Clinton presidency; President Obama repealed it last year. Now the bill’s author is receiving heated opposition. “I feel strongly about it because I believe that it affects the morale of our troops, yes,” State Rep. Mike Reynolds (R-Dist 91) said.

5. Oklahoma Senator Inhofe: God Says Global Warming Is A Hoax



In a radio interview with Voice of Christian Youth America, Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) argued that his belief that global warming is a hoax is biblically inspired. Promoting his book The Greatest Hoax: How the Global Warming Conspiracy Threatens Your Future, Inhofe told interviewer Vic Eliason on Wednesday that only God can change the climate, and the idea that manmade pollution could affect the seasons is “arrogance“:

“Well actually the Genesis 8:22 that I use in there is that “as long as the earth remains there will be springtime and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, day and night.” My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.” said Inhofe.

6. Right-to-Work Hurts Everyone

Workers in states with Right-to-Work laws have a consistently lower quality of life than in free bargaining states – lower wages; higher poverty, child poverty, and infant mortality rates; a greater likelihood of being uninsured; poorer education for their children; and a greater likelihood of being killed on the job.

Right-to-Work States Have Lower Wages and Incomes

The average worker in a Right-to-Work state makes $5,538 a year less than workers in free-bargaining states ($39,169 compared with $44,707). Weekly wages are $92 greater in free-bargaining states than in Right-to-Work states ($771.25 versus $679.55).
Median household income Right-to-Work states is $6,184 less than in Free-Bargaining states ($46,328 versus $52,513).
28.3 percent of the jobs in Right-to-Work states are in low wage occupations (defined as less than the amount needed to bring a family of four above the poverty line), compared with only 19.5 percent of jobs in Free Bargaining states.

Right-to-Work States Have a Larger Share of Uninsured Residents and a Smaller Share of Residents with Employment-Based Health Insurance

People in Right-to-Work states are more likely to be uninsured than people in free-bargaining states (16.7 percent versus 13.5 percent). Also, uninsured rates rose faster between 2000 and 2009 in Right to Work states (by 3.2 percentage points) than in Free Bargaining states (by only 1.9 percentage points).
Children in Right-to-Work states are also more likely to be uninsured than children in free bargaining states (10.4 percent versus 7.5 percent).
Residents of Right-to-Work states are less likely to have employment-based health insurance than residents of Free-Bargaining states (55.0 percent versus 59.3 percent).
Employers in Right-to-Work states are also less likely to offer health insurance to their workers than employers in Free-Bargaining states (50.3 percent versus 56.7 percent). That difference is even more significant among small employers (those with less than 50 workers). In Right-to-Work states, only 34.6 percent of small employers offer their workers health insurance, compared with 43.8 percent of all small employers in Free-Bargaining states.

Right-to-Work States Have Higher Poverty and Infant Mortality Rates

Poverty rates are higher in Right-to-Work states (19.1 percent for all people and 26.0 percent for children) than in Free Bargaining states (16.6 percent for all people and 23.3 percent for children).
The infant mortality rate is 16.0 percent higher in Right-to-Work states than in Free-Bargaining states.

Right-to-Work States Spend Less on Education

Right-to-Work states spend $2,671 less per pupil on elementary and secondary education than free-bargaining states.
Students in Right-to-Work states are less likely to be at grade level in math and reading. In Right-to-Work states, 29.6 percent of 8th grade students are proficient in math (compared with 33.2 percent in Free-Bargaining states) and 28.1 percent are proficient in reading (compared with 32.1 percent in Free-Bargaining states).
Residents of Right-to-Work states are also less likely to have high school and college degrees. In Right-to-Work states, 84.9 percent of people 25 and older have completed high school (compared with 86.9 percent in Free Bargaining states) and 24.5 percent of people 25 and older have completed college (compared with 28.4 percent in Free-Bargaining states).

Right-to-Work States Have Higher Workplace Fatality Rates

According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate of workplace deaths is 52.9% higher in states with Right-to-Work laws.

Sources: AFL-CIO, Death on the Job, 2010; Corporation for Enterprise Development, 2009-2010 Assets and Opportunities Scorecard; Kaiser Family Foundation, State Health Facts.org National Education Association, Rankings and Estimates – Rankings of the States 2009 and Estimates of School Statistics 2010, December 2009; U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Highlights of Women’s Earnings in 2009, June 2010; U.S. Census Bureau, 2006-2008 American Community Survey 3-Year Estimates; U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey 2010.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8384 at 07-20-2012 04:35 AM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
The model for the New America (Oklahoma)

So you think Wisconsin is the model of what far right-wing wants to do to America? You haven’t seen anything yet. Welcome to Oklahoma! Oklahoma is undergoing a governmental revolution. Under the guidance of ALEC and the leadership of a morally corrupt puppet governor Mary Fallin, Oklahoma is quickly becoming a gun-toting, low-tax, religious fundamentalist state. .... <snip>
Interesting. Though I wonder what's going to happen to this stuff in say 20 years, when Oklahoma becomes a non majority state (similar to what's going on in Texas.)
I did post someplace that Oklahoma is #2 after Hawaii in interracial marriage. Demographics is destiny.

On to some comments on the post itself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think Wisconsin is the model of what far right-wing wants to do to America? You haven’t seen anything yet. Welcome to Oklahoma! Oklahoma is undergoing a governmental revolution. Under the guidance of ALEC and the leadership of a morally corrupt puppet governor Mary Fallin, Oklahoma is quickly becoming a gun-toting, low-tax, religious fundamentalist state.
a. Guns: I really have no issue on guns. Yes, there is a gun culture here, like a lot of other fly over country. Honestly, I get indignant when bi coastal folks dis us on this. We actually eat free range meat, not trucked in grocery store stuff. So Bicoastals, STFU on guns already.

Why haven’t you heard about a huge labor battle in Oklahoma? That is because Oklahoma workers already have had these rights stripped away from them years ago with ‘Right to Work’ laws. In essence, if you work in Oklahoma, you will make around 20% less (than if you lived in a state that wasn’t ‘Right to Work’), your employer can easily fire you without notice and you have virtually no recourse. Does this cause poverty? Yes. Oklahoma ranks near the top of the state poverty rankings. For moe about Right to Work States, see point #6.
This is a valid complaint.

[quote]
Below are three disturbing stories that all happened in a span of a week and others that have happened within the past year. If you want to see what a radical Republican legislation is coming to your state, no need to look toward Wisconsin. Oklahoma is about a year ahead of the curve.


1. Insane Tax Cuts for Rich Proposed During Times of Huge Deficits and Underfunding of State Services


Despite the fact that the state of Oklahoma has huge deficits and it ranks at the bottom in the nation for education, roads and healthcare funding, state Republicans have proposed a tax cut that would disproportionally benefit those making over $200,000. Oklahoma is quickly nearing ‘banana republic’ status with respect to governance.
bond ratings

The bond rating is middle of the road.
state debt per capita. Obviously California would have a larger total debt, so to be fair, I looked up the stats on a per capita basis. Oklahoma is #34, which is at a somewhat lower than average level.
With all of that said, yes, the governer and both houses are certainly on the wrong track. Given that our infrastructure/healthcare/education systems are subpar, the current activity wrt "attracting job creators" is not correct.
a. "Job Creators" is a misnomer and does not apply to proper public policy.
b. If you want small busniss startups (real job creators), you'd want a knowledgable workforce instead of cretins.
c. If you want small business startups (real job creators) you'd also want an adequate infrastructure in place so your workers, supplies, products to be efficiently transported.
d. If you want small business startups (real job creators) you'd want an equal and simple tax strucure for businesses. Large companies can hire a lawyer crew to handle a bloated, compicated tax system. The actual maximum rate isn't that relevent. A basic X/Y income tax would work. If you have X profit, you pay Y tax. The tax should be progressive. If big business leaves, that's not a big deal. They don't actually create jobs. The max rate of course should not be too onnerous on small to mid size busisses, since economic problems plus an onnerous tax rate can be a problem. The same would apply to individueals. Yes, some progress has been made in getting rid of assorted "tax breaks". Give Oklahoma some credit for that at least. It's a start.

This belief that even more tax gifts to the rich (that are only now paying 15% rates) will solve our economic problems is not only disingenuous position of the rich that know better, but has reached a cult status among a group of the upper middle class ‘want-a-be’s’.
I do not understand this. The max income tax rate is 2.5% here.

2. Oklahoma Students Shown A Movie Comparing Abortion To The Holocaust

Students at a public Oklahoma high school were given copies of a movie that compares abortion to the Holocaust after a local family asked the principal if they could distribute the DVDs to students, according to a local TV station. The movie begins with images of Hitler and concentration camps before making a comparison between the Holocaust and abortion.
Yes. At present, we have too many religious crackpots.

The principal agreed to hand out the anti-abortion film, titled 180, if students obtained parental consent first, but the copies were handed out before parents were notified.
The Christian ministry Living Waters produced the movie. When it was released in 2011, the Anti-Defamation League called the film “one of the most offensive and outrageous abuses of the memory of the Holocaust we have seen in years".
See above.

3. Hee Haw! You can carry guns openly in Oklahoma

Gun nuts and Rednecks rejoice! Far right Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin took time off of her personal crusade to send women back to the 1800′s long enough to sign a measure Tuesday allowing for guns to be carried openly.
Remarks like "Hee Haw" are offensive. A response is in order. Mayor Bloomberg of NYC is a fucking control freak for assorted drink size laws, so there!

“Oklahoma ranks near last in education, road conditions, health and workers rights, its true. But we got guns, freedom and God. It is like paradise. Praise our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Winchester.” said a Oklahoma City resident visiting the state capital on Tuesday.
Pros: Winshester. Freedom from control freaks like Bloomberg.
Cons: Fundie nutjobs, crappy infrastructure. Worker rights deficits. Screwed up tax priorities.

Senate Bill 1733 by Sen. Anthony Sykes, R-Moore, would allow those with a conceal-carry permit to openly carry weapons. The measure takes effect Nov. 1.
A non issue.

“As a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and a gun owner myself, I’m happy to sign this bill into law and grant law-abiding citizens the ability to openly carry firearms,” Fallin said. “Senate Bill 1733 sends a strong message that Oklahoma values the rights of its citizens to defend themselves, their family and their property. It does so in a responsible way, by requiring those citizens who choose to open carry to undergo both firearms training and a background check.”
Yes, of course if people want to have guns, like a car, they should know how to use them appropriately.


4. Oklahoma State Senator Mike Reynolds Proposes Bill to Reinstate ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’


Bigots die hard, at least they do in Oklahoma apparently.
Actually, bigotry associated with fundies does. I do not like them either.

The following is an excerpt from KOTV.com
A controversial policy banned from the U.S. military may be making a comeback in Oklahoma. We’re talking about a bill being proposed in the state House of Representatives. Supporters say they’ve been asked to reinstate the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT) policy in the Oklahoma National Guard.
Phile under Phundie idiocy run amok.

It’s controversial because it prohibits gays from serving openly in the military. It began during the Clinton presidency; President Obama repealed it last year. Now the bill’s author is receiving heated opposition. “I feel strongly about it because I believe that it affects the morale of our troops, yes,” State Rep. Mike Reynolds (R-Dist 91) said.
file this also under Fundie nutjob file or whatever you call it.

5. Oklahoma Senator Inhofe: God Says Global Warming Is A Hoax
An example of Oklahoma's bad education system? Perhaps. Inholfe seems to need remdial science classes. I wonder if he actually comes around for a bit during the summer. If he'd just step outside this year or last year, a hot blast of 104 degree air might give him a clue. He may also want to visit some of lovely burned up corn fields. This year's and last year's droughts have been a bitch. We've had 100+ degree temps since the start of June. It's hard to miss.

In a radio interview with Voice of Christian Youth America, Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) argued that his belief that global warming is a hoax is biblically inspired. Promoting his book The Greatest Hoax: How the Global Warming Conspiracy Threatens Your Future, Inhofe told interviewer Vic Eliason on Wednesday that only God can change the climate, and the idea that manmade pollution could affect the seasons is “arrogance“:
Above, I was wrong. Inhofe seems to be a denzen of the 14th centruy.

“Well actually the Genesis 8:22 that I use in there is that “as long as the earth remains there will be springtime and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, day and night.” My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.” said Inhofe.
Do I need to say more? 14th centruy it is.

6. Right-to-Work Hurts Everyone

Workers in states with Right-to-Work laws have a consistently lower quality of life than in free bargaining states – lower wages; higher poverty, child poverty, and infant mortality rates; a greater likelihood of being uninsured; poorer education for their children; and a greater likelihood of being killed on the job.

Right-to-Work States Have Lower Wages and Incomes

The average worker in a Right-to-Work state makes $5,538 a year less than workers in free-bargaining states ($39,169 compared with $44,707). Weekly wages are $92 greater in free-bargaining states than in Right-to-Work states ($771.25 versus $679.55).
Median household income Right-to-Work states is $6,184 less than in Free-Bargaining states ($46,328 versus $52,513).
28.3 percent of the jobs in Right-to-Work states are in low wage occupations (defined as less than the amount needed to bring a family of four above the poverty line), compared with only 19.5 percent of jobs in Free Bargaining states.

Right-to-Work States Have a Larger Share of Uninsured Residents and a Smaller Share of Residents with Employment-Based Health Insurance
Agreed that right to work is actually "right to be exploited".

People in Right-to-Work states are more likely to be uninsured than people in free-bargaining states (16.7 percent versus 13.5 percent). Also, uninsured rates rose faster between 2000 and 2009 in Right to Work states (by 3.2 percentage points) than in Free Bargaining states (by only 1.9 percentage points).
Children in Right-to-Work states are also more likely to be uninsured than children in free bargaining states (10.4 percent versus 7.5 percent).
Residents of Right-to-Work states are less likely to have employment-based health insurance than residents of Free-Bargaining states (55.0 percent versus 59.3 percent).
Employers in Right-to-Work states are also less likely to offer health insurance to their workers than employers in Free-Bargaining states (50.3 percent versus 56.7 percent). That difference is even more significant among small employers (those with less than 50 workers). In Right-to-Work states, only 34.6 percent of small employers offer their workers health insurance, compared with 43.8 percent of all small employers in Free-Bargaining states.
True.

Right-to-Work States Have Higher Poverty and Infant Mortality Rates
Also true.

Poverty rates are higher in Right-to-Work states (19.1 percent for all people and 26.0 percent for children) than in Free Bargaining states (16.6 percent for all people and 23.3 percent for children).
The infant mortality rate is 16.0 percent higher in Right-to-Work states than in Free-Bargaining states.

Right-to-Work States Spend Less on Education

Right-to-Work states spend $2,671 less per pupil on elementary and secondary education than free-bargaining states.
Students in Right-to-Work states are less likely to be at grade level in math and reading. In Right-to-Work states, 29.6 percent of 8th grade students are proficient in math (compared with 33.2 percent in Free-Bargaining states) and 28.1 percent are proficient in reading (compared with 32.1 percent in Free-Bargaining states).
Residents of Right-to-Work states are also less likely to have high school and college degrees. In Right-to-Work states, 84.9 percent of people 25 and older have completed high school (compared with 86.9 percent in Free Bargaining states) and 24.5 percent of people 25 and older have completed college (compared with 28.4 percent in Free-Bargaining states).

Right-to-Work States Have Higher Workplace Fatality Rates

According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate of workplace deaths is 52.9% higher in states with Right-to-Work laws.

Sources: AFL-CIO, Death on the Job, 2010; Corporation for Enterprise Development, 2009-2010 Assets and Opportunities Scorecard; Kaiser Family Foundation, State Health Facts.org National Education Association, Rankings and Estimates – Rankings of the States 2009 and Estimates of School Statistics 2010, December 2009; U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Highlights of Women’s Earnings in 2009, June 2010; U.S. Census Bureau, 2006-2008 American Community Survey 3-Year Estimates; U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey 2010.

To summarize Oklahoma has 3 fundamental*(pun intended) problems in order.
1. We have way too many Fundie nutjobs.
2.We've fallen for the falsehood that low tax rates create jobs/economic growth.
3.We've fallen for the falsehood that adequate public services/investment aren't needed for small business startups/expansion (actual job creation.) Now, I wouldn't use $/student as a metric. Yes, it can be too low to fund actual infrastructure (school buildings) and up to date text books, but it can be misleading as well. Where I live, we have too many administrators/student and the administrators are way overpaid. So , schools should be "properly funded" and to get that number a number of metrics are needed.

a. Again, check the administration costs/student costs. If this number is too high, then cull excess administrators. Do the same for higher education.
b.For higher education: Cull degrees like "fashion merchandising" aka "dress selling". Such degrees have a very bad cost/benefit ratiol. Do not expect 18 year olds to know that there are juseless degrees.
c. Check costs of trophy buildings. Stadiums, monuments to alumni, etc. do not affect educational performance. These should be eliminated in this age of tuition inflation. Some places have fancy student unions, aka "on campus shopping malls". These are usually worse than useless. They are magnets to credit card companies, sell overpriced stuff, and offer "dream spring break spots" like S. Padre. These are essentially debt traps for students.
4.We've neglected the fact that worker peonage compromises economic growth. Peons can't support small business. They're too poor.
5.We have embraced wind power and don't suffer from the usual NIMBYism that afflicts other parts of the country. Dead birds aren't an issue. It's probably because we actually use guns to produce our own dead birds for the supper table.

So, there y'all have it. I worked to provide an unbiased look at my home state. I grew up here and I'm retired here. One last thing, our housing is cheap and we have good soil for home gardends, but don't expect any pretty views. Our weather isn't really a draw either. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter.
Last edited by Ragnarök_62; 07-20-2012 at 04:39 AM.
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Post#8385 at 07-20-2012 12:16 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
Interesting. Though I wonder what's going to happen to this stuff in say 20 years, when Oklahoma becomes a non majority state (similar to what's going on in Texas.)
I did post someplace that Oklahoma is #2 after Hawaii in interracial marriage. Demographics is destiny.
Large American Indian population that is economically assimilated into Oklahoma (probably more than are blacks). This is nearly unique to Oklahoma -- contrast Arizona, New Mexico, and South Dakota, wherein the reservations are close to being ghettos due to mass poverty.


a. Guns: I really have no issue on guns. Yes, there is a gun culture here, like a lot of other fly over country. Honestly, I get indignant when bi coastal folks dis us on this. We actually eat free range meat, not trucked in grocery store stuff. So Bicoastals, STFU on guns already.
I'm a liberal, but if I lived in bear county or cougar country I would pack iron. I have no problems with sport hunting. Venison is delicious.


bond ratings

The bond rating is middle of the road.
state debt per capita. Obviously California would have a larger total debt, so to be fair, I looked up the stats on a per capita basis. Oklahoma is #34, which is at a somewhat lower than average level.
With all of that said, yes, the governor and both houses are certainly on the wrong track. Given that our infrastructure/healthcare/education systems are subpar, the current activity wrt "attracting job creators" is not correct.

Bond ratings matter. States with money trouble because they have spent beyond their means are going to have trouble if compelled to further expenditures. States more rural can do more on the cheap in part because public employees have fewer alternatives from private employment (school teachers would be the dream salespersons) and official corruption (bribes from racketeers). Maybe because American institutions were tailor-made for a rural world they have failed to adapt to urbanity as might have been so in countries which have had their last upheavals in more modern times.

I recently drove through Oklahoma... and it is obviously much newer than most other parts of America in that it has newer buildings. In contrast to small towns in Michigan Oklahoma small towns have no Victorian buildings. Newer buildings have generally not decayed as much and as a rule have not been subdivided into decrepit, cramped housing. So that is a difference.


a. "Job Creators" is a misnomer and does not apply to proper public policy.
100% agreement. That phrase is itself doublespeak deserving contempt. It originates in the self-serving rhetoric of the intellectual whores of Corporate America.

Most of our giant industries are now in the cash-cow phase of the growth cycle, and America's business executives act much like the exploitative Soviet-era nomenklatura. Oh, just because there is no private ownership of business there can be no exploitation as said Karl Marx? Wrong! Our executive elites and money-traders are the most flagrant exploiters of the common man.

b. If you want small business startups (real job creators), you'd want a knowledgeable workforce instead of cretins.
True. You certainly need people with language skills so that they can communicate with people and math skills so that they can keep up with what they are doing. Most of our new business models depend upon a small internal elite of IT people using computers to decide what sells and what doesn't with low-paid 'cretins' to run the cash registers and clean the floors. That's the Wal*Mart way.

You also need customers willing to spend money on something other than low-end merchandise. I can assure you that the mass of employees of box stores are buying their jalopies at tote-the-note lots, getting payday loans, and buying low-end merchandise. I know how things were fifty years ago, when factory workers were at the least buying canoes, bowling balls, and fishing gear. Factory work was mindless toil, but so is the low-paid work in box stores and fast-food restaurants. But factory workers at the least had a stake in the economic system.

c. If you want small business startups (real job creators) you'd also want an adequate infrastructure in place so your workers, supplies, products to be efficiently transported.

d. If you want small business startups (real job creators) you'd want an equal and simple tax strucure for businesses. Large companies can hire a lawyer crew to handle a bloated, compicated tax system. The actual maximum rate isn't that relevent. A basic X/Y income tax would work. If you have X profit, you pay Y tax. The tax should be progressive. If big business leaves, that's not a big deal. They don't actually create jobs. The max rate of course should not be too onerous on small to mid size businesses, since economic problems plus an onerous tax rate can be a problem. The same would apply to individuals. Yes, some progress has been made in getting rid of assorted "tax breaks". Give Oklahoma some credit for that at least. It's a start.
Undeniable. Of course the article is heavy-handed and stacks the deck (I wish that liberals would quit using incendiary, abusive rhetoric such as "redneck" and "Hee Haw!). What is often forgotten is that the time of maximal taxes on corporations and individuals -- the 1950s -- was the heyday of small business in America. The current flat tax structure favors vertical integration and cartels, and of course huge mergers and acquisitions. Small businesses found niches in merchandising, food service, banking, and even manufacturing. The owners of those small businesses were community leaders and gave communities their distinction. That is gone. Or as Joni Mitchell sang in Big Yellow Taxi:

"Don't it always seem to go/ That you don't know what you've got until it's gone/ They paved Paradise/ To put in a parking lot"


Remarks like "Hee Haw" are offensive. A response is in order. Mayor Bloomberg of NYC is a fucking control freak for assorted drink size laws, so there!


Pros: Winshester. Freedom from control freaks like Bloomberg.
Cons: Fundie nutjobs, crappy infrastructure. Worker rights deficits. Screwed up tax priorities.
I've been through Oklahoma. Eastern Oklahoma is beautiful. It has excellent recreational facilities. Nice fishing lakes. Of course most Oklahomans can't afford to fish them because they don't make enough to buy the boats, trailer, and fishing gear. I suspect that giant cities like New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Philadelphia need control freaks to keep things civilized. I've heard plenty of people claim that Houston is an urban nightmare to the extent that it is wide-open in contrast to Dallas. If you live in New York City you are going to need some level of regimentation unnecessary in Kalamazoo.


Yes, of course if people want to have guns, like a car, they should know how to use them appropriately.
Which implies the need for basic education that includes some ethical values best described as universal. One of those is the ability to get along... and enough critical thinking to recognize that the evil of Nazis is not to be extended pointlessly to whatever happens to be some narrow craze.


An example of Oklahoma's bad education system? Perhaps. Inholfe seems to need remedial science classes. I wonder if he actually comes around for a bit during the summer. If he'd just step outside this year or last year, a hot blast of 104 degree air might give him a clue. He may also want to visit some of lovely burned up corn fields. This year's and last year's droughts have been a bitch. We've had 100+ degree temps since the start of June. It's hard to miss.


Above, I was wrong. Inhofe seems to be a denizen of the 14th century.


Do I need to say more? 14th century it is.

We have had some of that in Michigan, so something is very wrong. That someone like Imhofe can be elected statewide in Oklahoma indicates something wrong with the culture including the educational system. Of course the Hard Right has no use for dissidents except perhaps as examples of what can go wrong to people. An economic ideology whose basis is people competing to determine who will suffer most for the least is an abomination to anyone else, and an official recognition of unscientific thought as a test of faith is absurdity. That said, there are (Iran, North Korea) and have been (the commie regime in Czechoslovakia that the late Vaclav Havel code-named 'Absurdistan', let alone Nazi Germany) some catastrophically-absurd political orders. As this 4T 'progresses' with the recent rise of the Tea Party I have more doubts about America than I do of some other countries.

But in supposedly-more 'sophisticated' and 'civilized' states... Maine elected nutcase Paul LePage. Florida got shyster tycoon Rick Scott as Governor. Pennsylvania elected as its Senator someone best described as a frontman for the Club for Growth. Wisconsin elected Scott Walker. America may be on the fascist road... and should the Hard Right clamp down on San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, or New York City things can get ugly. An anti-human, repressive ideology stops at nothing except immediate consequences to its power. After all, dissidents have no right to live.

Agreed that right to work is actually "right to be exploited".

Exploitative elites always see their exploitation as beneficence to those exploited. Just think of the slave-owning planters. Yes -- they really thought they were benefactors to "their people".

To summarize Oklahoma has 3 fundamental*(pun intended) problems in order.

1. We have way too many Fundie nutjobs.
2.We've fallen for the falsehood that low tax rates create jobs/economic growth.
3.We've fallen for the falsehood that adequate public services/investment aren't needed for small business startups/expansion (actual job creation.) Now, I wouldn't use $/student as a metric. Yes, it can be too low to fund actual infrastructure (school buildings) and up to date text books, but it can be misleading as well. Where I live, we have too many administrators/student and the administrators are way overpaid. So , schools should be "properly funded" and to get that number a number of metrics are needed.
Michigan has too many fundie nutjobs, too. The Hard Right has an efficient and effective propaganda system just as does any totalitarian ideology (and I am not scared to use that word).

Public officials have adopted much of the Way of the Executive, including the managerial claptrap and the high salaries.


a. Again, check the administration costs/student costs. If this number is too high, then cull excess administrators. Do the same for higher education.
b.For higher education: Cull degrees like "fashion merchandising" aka "dress selling". Such degrees have a very bad cost/benefit ratio. Do not expect 18 year olds to know that there are juseless degrees.
c. Check costs of trophy buildings. Stadiums, monuments to alumni, etc. do not affect educational performance. These should be eliminated in this age of tuition inflation. Some places have fancy student unions, aka "on campus shopping malls". These are usually worse than useless. They are magnets to credit card companies, sell overpriced stuff, and offer "dream spring break spots" like S. Padre. These are essentially debt traps for students.
d.We've neglected the fact that worker peonage compromises economic growth. Peons can't support small business. They're too poor.
e.We have embraced wind power and don't suffer from the usual NIMBYism that afflicts other parts of the country. Dead birds aren't an issue. It's probably because we actually use guns to produce our own dead birds for the supper table.

So, there y'all have it. I worked to provide an unbiased look at my home state. I grew up here and I'm retired here. One last thing, our housing is cheap and we have good soil for home gardends, but don't expect any pretty views. Our weather isn't really a draw either. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter.
a. Agreement. High costs do not indicate quality. Private industry has demonstrated that it is possible to build an awful, high-cost car (the Cadillac Cimarron) or a good low-cost car (the recent Chevrolet Impala). So it is with public universities.

b. Let's go back to the norm of the liberal arts degree except for the rigorous technical schooling. The old liberal arts grad was well prepared for leadership roles soon after graduation. Shakespeare may not be job-specific, but people can derive some wisdom appropriate for reality. People familiar with Macbeth have little use for thug government. People who don't know Macbeth might have the misfortune of discovering the undesirability of thug government the hard way, as with torture chambers, slave-labor camps, and destructive wars.

c. The usual 'show project', an impressive white elephant that does nothing but show the power of political and economic magnates over the powerless and gullible. remember -- the basic cost of the old liberal arts education wasn't that huge. I can't imagine a better cost-to-benefit ratio than the Great Books approach. There really is a corpus of knowledge that civilized leaders in public and private life both need. "Luxury", the faux virtue of our time to be achieved by uncritical use of credit, needs to be recognized as the fraud that it is. Maybe when it becomes an attribute only of a vile elite that has lost all credibility...

d. No question. There are good reasons for calling dead-end jobs what they are -- they are dead-ends even for life. They might be good for short-term survival, but as institutions only exploiters want them as the norm.

e. Good idea. I've seen plenty of dead pheasants along the side of the road, and I know what our little tigers are doing behind the bushes of our suburban jungles.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8386 at 07-20-2012 01:09 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
I'm a liberal, but if I lived in bear county or cougar country I would pack iron. I have no problems with sport hunting. Venison is delicious.
Me too! It's the semi-automatics with which I have a concern. There's apparently no need for those when hunting or protecting one's self from a crime. Unless, of course, one wants to pulverize their meat or attacker.

Here's a piece about last night's tragic killings in Colorado and the gun control issue.

Columbine's lesson for Aurora

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/20/colu...ns_for_aurora/
Last edited by Deb C; 07-20-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Post#8387 at 07-20-2012 01:27 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Me too! It's the semi-automatics with which I have a concern. There's apparently no need for those when hunting or protecting one's self from a crime. Unless, of course, one wants to pulverize their meat or attacker.
Are you aware of what a semi-automatic is? All it means is that a person does not need to manually re-set the bolt (or hammer) in between each round. So in practice, a semi-automatic firearm is one where each trigger pull fires a single bullet. Firing a subsequent bullet (also just one) involves releasing the trigger, then pulling it again.

For hunting, a major important use of semi-automatics is, if* the first shot misses, to allow a second shot without having to remove one's focus from the target (and, naturally, on the stuff behind the target). In self-defense, such a feature is even more important, since deer just run away when you miss them, rather than shooting back.

In either case, you're woefully misinformed. Semiautomatic action is very useful and important.

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*"If"? Who are we kidding here...?
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Post#8388 at 07-20-2012 01:34 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Are you aware of what a semi-automatic is? All it means is that a person does not need to manually re-set the bolt (or hammer) in between each round. So in practice, a semi-automatic firearm is one where each trigger pull fires a single bullet. Firing a subsequent bullet (also just one) involves releasing the trigger, then pulling it again.

For hunting, a major important use of semi-automatics is, if* the first shot misses, to allow a second shot without having to remove one's focus from the target (and, naturally, on the stuff behind the target). In self-defense, such a feature is even more important, since deer just run away when you miss them, rather than shooting back.

In either case, you're woefully misinformed. Semiautomatic action is very useful and important.

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*"If"? Who are we kidding here...?
Your probably correct. I'm far from being a gun expert or actually knowing much of anything about weapons.

I am confused. What is the difference between a semi-automatic and a AK-47?
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#8389 at 07-20-2012 02:07 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Your probably correct. I'm far from being a gun expert or actually knowing much of anything about weapons.

I am confused. What is the difference between a semi-automatic and a AK-47?
An AK-47 is a semi-automatic rifle (civilian owned models).







Post#8390 at 07-20-2012 02:16 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
An AK-47 is a semi-automatic rifle (civilian owned models).
Thanks for your response. I now feel a bit more enlightened about the subject.
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Post#8391 at 07-20-2012 02:27 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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The military version of an AK-47 is a semi-automatic rifle with fully-automatic toggle. This type of rifle is today standard issue in military forces. The U.S. Army has its own version. Military assault rifles are not available to the public under U.S. law (I think); modified versions without the full-auto toggle are.
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Post#8392 at 07-20-2012 02:33 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I am confused. What is the difference between a semi-automatic and a AK-47?
"Semi-automatic" is a type of firing mechanism. An AK-47 (Automat Kalashnikov, model 1947) is a specific make of firearms.

It (as with many, many, many other kinds of rifles) is manufactured in both semi-automatic and fully automatic versions -- they differ in the Kalashnikov in their receiver mechanisms (the part on the back of the barrel that the cartridge-to-be-fired sits in, including the trigger and firing assemblies). In practice, a semi-automatic Kalashnikov, or other rifle, has a two-position safety lever -- one position being safety, the other position allowing firing; a fully-automatic one has a three-position safety lever -- 'safe', 'single-shot' (that is, firing one shot per trigger pull), and 'automatic' (that is, continuous cycling of firing with a single, sustained trigger pull).

The phrase 'AK-47-type', however, is pretty meaningless. An AK-47 isn't a type -- and in fact, that particular make of firearm has multiple, significantly different, types. The fully-automatic type, by the way, is illegal to own pretty much everywhere in the world. The semi-automatic type, on the other hand, is no different from the .308's that are among the most popular hunting rifles in America (in fact, if we're talking about the 7.62mm Kalashnikov, they even fire the exact same bullets; otherwise the Kalashnikov is a rather less powerful round than your granddad's deer gun).

When it comes to politics, sloppy language is intentional. Education and critical listening are the only ways to fight it.

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I see the one-liners beat me to the answer . One comment for Brian - the semi-auto only doesn't feature a 'modified' trigger mechanism. It's a factory build that way. I carried a semiautomatic Kalashnikov (the 1974 model, though) when I went wolf-hunting.
Last edited by Justin '77; 07-20-2012 at 02:36 PM.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#8393 at 07-20-2012 02:44 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
One comment for Brian - the semi-auto only doesn't feature a 'modified' trigger mechanism. It's a factory build that way. I carried a semiautomatic Kalashnikov (the 1974 model, though) when I went wolf-hunting.
Thanks for the information and correction.

Shame on you for wolf-hunting, though.
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Post#8394 at 07-20-2012 03:05 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
Thanks for the information and correction.

Shame on you for wolf-hunting, though.
Wolves kill a couple people (generally kids or old folks) every winter down in Novgorod Oblast. We only hunted the ones that hang out dangerously close to where people live. There's no shortage of wolves out there, in any case; the guys I know have been taking a dozen or more every winter for since the 50s, and it doesn't appear to affect the overall population of the wolves or of their prey.

I wouldn't even think of touching a North American wolf. They've got no choice but to be near people...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#8395 at 07-20-2012 04:17 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
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I see the one-liners beat me to the answer . One comment for Brian - the semi-auto only doesn't feature a 'modified' trigger mechanism. It's a factory build that way. I carried a semiautomatic Kalashnikov (the 1974 model, though) when I went wolf-hunting.
In the states it's very rare to come across actual '47 models now. Most are '74 and up when purchasing surplus and if you are buying new its all about the 10x models (here in the states anyway). Of course technically speaking, due to US weapon importation laws any of the Kalashnikovs for sale in the United States have been rebuilt with the requisite number of US made parts. About the only thing left on them built by the original factory is the receiver, bolt and barrel.

It's a pity. The craftsmanship just isn't quite the same.

For a really magnificent Russian built weapon folks have recently been collecting the Mosin Nagant 91/30.
Last edited by Copperfield; 07-20-2012 at 04:22 PM.







Post#8396 at 07-20-2012 06:17 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
In the states it's very rare to come across actual '47 models now. Most are '74 and up when purchasing surplus and if you are buying new its all about the 10x models (here in the states anyway). Of course technically speaking, due to US weapon importation laws any of the Kalashnikovs for sale in the United States have been rebuilt with the requisite number of US made parts. About the only thing left on them built by the original factory is the receiver, bolt and barrel.

It's a pity. The craftsmanship just isn't quite the same.
Not surprising. The receivers are riveted onto the barrel. I can't imagine that disassembly and reattachment will fail to damage the final product.


For a really magnificent Russian built weapon folks have recently been collecting the Mosin Nagant 91/30.
Supposedly, the 91/30 is a Romanian version. In any case, you could hardly go wrong with Simo Häyhä's gun. American's only like to think they have a gun culture. Those wacky reindeer-herders have us beat hands-down (as a cursory glance at biathlon records could show).
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#8397 at 07-20-2012 07:06 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Supposedly, the 91/30 is a Romanian version. In any case, you could hardly go wrong with Simo Häyhä's gun. American's only like to think they have a gun culture. Those wacky reindeer-herders have us beat hands-down (as a cursory glance at biathlon records could show).
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. Even the paternity of the original M91 is a convoluted mess. If I recall the name "Mosin-Nagant" is only used here in the west and not in Russia (Leon Nagant being a Belgian).

Fortunately back in those days they marked the shit out of their weapons which can let collectors start to trace where the weapon came from (or at least the parts if its a refurb). Some of the early Tsarist Russian manufactured M91's are highly sought after by collectors (which only means you pay $125 instead of the usual $99).







Post#8398 at 07-20-2012 08:38 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Wolves kill a couple people (generally kids or old folks) every winter down in Novgorod Oblast. We only hunted the ones that hang out dangerously close to where people live. There's no shortage of wolves out there, in any case; the guys I know have been taking a dozen or more every winter for since the 50s, and it doesn't appear to affect the overall population of the wolves or of their prey.

I wouldn't even think of touching a North American wolf. They've got no choice but to be near people...
I winced when I read the wolf-hunting bit, then I realized that I'm sure there is no shortage of wolves in Siberia, LOL. Looks like I'm the "Stupid American" who thinks nothing outside the US is relevant, LOL
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Post#8399 at 07-20-2012 08:54 PM by Joral [at Acworth, GA joined Feb 2009 #posts 152]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. Even the paternity of the original M91 is a convoluted mess. If I recall the name "Mosin-Nagant" is only used here in the west and not in Russia (Leon Nagant being a Belgian).

Fortunately back in those days they marked the shit out of their weapons which can let collectors start to trace where the weapon came from (or at least the parts if its a refurb). Some of the early Tsarist Russian manufactured M91's are highly sought after by collectors (which only means you pay $125 instead of the usual $99).
Some of the Finnish Mosins are worth a bit more, and are remarked to be more accurate. I have a 91/30 dated 1939 that was about $95 a few years ago. All of the numbers match except the magazine. Quite different from the U.S. and German WW2 rifle prices. They did build them by the millions though.
"On the day the storm has just begun I will still hope there are better days to come."







Post#8400 at 07-20-2012 09:00 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. Even the paternity of the original M91 is a convoluted mess. If I recall the name "Mosin-Nagant" is only used here in the west and not in Russia (Leon Nagant being a Belgian).
Huh. I always heard Russians just call it a "Nagan" (the 't' is silent, anyway).

Anyway, since the topic provides me the barest excuse, I present the boys-of-a-couple-years-back in front of one of the exhibit posters ("The Man, The Weapon, The Legend") at the army museum in Peterburg:

"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
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