Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 353







Post#8801 at 09-04-2012 09:23 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
09-04-2012, 09:23 PM #8801
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
What you arer describing is a perpetual motion machine. What you're forgetting is that, someday, someone gets to pay for that "injection."

Or are you going to give us another heaping helping of MMT?
Capitalism is a perpetual motion machine.

Anyone who thinks infinite exponential growth is both possible and desirable is either insane or an economist.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8802 at 09-04-2012 09:42 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
09-04-2012, 09:42 PM #8802
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Oh my, such a scolding!

Here's the quote:
You are taking my comment out of context, using it to imply that I think welfare recipients would rather be on welfare than have a job. And you KNEW you were taking it out of context, don't play dumb.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8803 at 09-04-2012 09:48 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-04-2012, 09:48 PM #8803
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
This is extraordinarily difficult to explain to a Randian true-believer, but I give you props for trying. I, myself, have given up. I did get it through to my step-father, at which time he said "so, we still have to reduce spending because of the deficit". Four sentences don't go by until he says "Obama is bad because unemployment is still over 8 percent". Those are two opposing concepts in today's economy. They cannot tie that knot and I am tired of saying it. Reducing the deficit will increase unemployment, and to-the-moon unemployment is A-OK as long as a Republican is in charge. It is an urgent problem when a Dem is in charge.
I can see how reducing the deficit would reduce funding and eliminate jobs in the process. I can also see how interest payments on the debt will exceed the cost of Obama's Stimulus and bite into funding unless its financially supported with more debt.







Post#8804 at 09-04-2012 10:04 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
---
09-04-2012, 10:04 PM #8804
Join Date
May 2007
Posts
6,368

As this does not appear to be a Regeneracy, I suspect this election will be determined by a familiar pattern-people voting against a candidate, rather than for one.







Post#8805 at 09-04-2012 10:20 PM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-04-2012, 10:20 PM #8805
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
I realize that with your closed mind, this is pretty useless to try to explain; however, what the heck...

By "injection," I believe you mean federal govt spending, and more specifically federal deficit spending which is the spending that exceeds federal revenues.

It terms of taxes, you are not paying for it now, because as noted above, this is spending beyond current taxes.

Will taxes pay for it later then? No because the feds don't use tax money to payoff federal debt. Instead, they roll the entire federal debt over about every three months through the bond market. The feds pay off old bonds, issue new bonds, and bond buyers that just got their old bonds paid off then re-stash their non-interest bearing securities (i.e., money) back into interest-bearing securities (i.e. new T-bills). That's the way it's worked since the country was founded and that's the way it will work into the future.

So, how can we eventually, if ever, pay for the govt "injections" of money into the economy? The answer is that we could pay through higher prices for everything in the economy. That is called demand-pull inflation and it occurs when there is too much demand for the economy to supply. "Injections" (i.e. govt spending) can tip the economy into demand-pull inflation if there already is sufficient demand from private sector spending - the best sign that such a situation exist is that there is full employment.

Is there sufficient demand from private sector spending today? No.

Will there be sufficient private sector spending in the future (i.e. full employment) that would make govt "injections" inflationary? No one knows the future.

What we do know is that the global economy is getting better and better at supply with less and less need to pay people. At a minimum, that means full employment is very unlikely. It also means that there is substantial potential for DE-flationary pressure on the economy; perhaps enough so that govt injections are the only way to keep up demand in order to maintain, let alone grow, the economy.

People who want less federal spending essentially want less income for a vast number of people. And with less income, those people are going to be spending less and reducing the incomes of other people, and so it goes - keeping the economy mired if not putting it into a deflationary spiral.

This is not rocket science. One just needs a mind open enough to learn something, but like I said earlier that is basically a problem with you.
Will it last forever? How long does faith last? At what point do investors, banks and taxpayers completely loose faith?







Post#8806 at 09-04-2012 10:58 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
---
09-04-2012, 10:58 PM #8806
Join Date
Jan 2010
Posts
1,995

Where's Glick when you need him?

*Ahem*

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Calling another poster a troll is not cool.
But,(in response to Rani):

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I am getting sick of your trollish behavior.
<giggle>


Prince

PS:!
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#8807 at 09-05-2012 12:04 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-05-2012, 12:04 AM #8807
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
*Ahem*
Odin's penchant for throwing negative labels at other posters here can be pretty funny.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#8808 at 09-05-2012 12:06 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
09-05-2012, 12:06 AM #8808
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Julian Castro = future president of the US. That guy is going places!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#8809 at 09-05-2012 12:09 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-05-2012, 12:09 AM #8809
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

I'm enjoying the Democratic convention, cause I guess it beats doing what I know I should be doing, but feel too tired or lazy to do.

Michelle Obama is so genuine; I was impressed at how she can come on stage in front of the nation and explain why she still loves her husband despite being president, and why his policies are right, and not make us feel she is trying to impress anybody, but just sharing what she knows and what she feels. Mark Shields called it genius. Gov. Deval Patrick of Massachussetts did a good job of contrasting his record with Romney's as governor, as well as telling Democrats to get a backbone and not let Obama be "bullied" out of office.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#8810 at 09-05-2012 12:29 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 12:29 AM #8810
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
So now you want to take incomes away from working folks???

This is what the dumb-as-dirt folks don't get - one person's spending is another person's income. The funds that the federal govt injects into the economy - by either buying goods and services directly or by paying some one (e.g. welfare, SS, Medicare, military, govt workers) - provides incomes to 100s of millions of people who then in turn spend to provide incomes to 100s of millions of people.
Fortunately, I'm not as dumb as dirt. I identified those connections long before you saw the light and fell in line with Bush Republicans as far as taxation is concerned.


Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
The question is whether the govt is spending too much or too little into the economy and, in combination with the spending by the private sector, causing prices to rise or fall. That depends on the current economic situation.
The question is whether the government is spending to much and getting little or nothing back as far as returns and results.

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Tell me, Sherlock, do you think there's too much or too little demand in the economy right now? Because if you think like most people there’s too little, then why do you want to take further income away from hard working people by reducing the spending done by people on welfare? Seems just a little… well, how can I say this, oh yea…. seems more than just a little STUPID!
Tell me, Sherlock, what's it going to take to stimulate me. I can sprinkle a helluva lot more money and generate a lot more business than female airheads and dirt cheap labor.







Post#8811 at 09-05-2012 12:38 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 12:38 AM #8811
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I'm enjoying the Democratic convention, cause I guess it beats doing what I know I should be doing, but feel too tired or lazy to do.

Michelle Obama is so genuine; I was impressed at how she can come on stage in front of the nation and explain why she still loves her husband despite being president, and why his policies are right, and not make us feel she is trying to impress anybody, but just sharing what she knows and what she feels. Mark Shields called it genius. Gov. Deval Patrick of Massachussetts did a good job of contrasting his record with Romney's as governor, as well as telling Democrats to get a backbone and not let Obama be "bullied" out of office.
I'm not even going to watch the Democratic convention this time because I don't expect to see or hear anything new.







Post#8812 at 09-05-2012 12:46 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-05-2012, 12:46 AM #8812
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I'm not even going to watch the Democratic convention this time because I don't expect to see or hear anything new.
You sure you are not talking about the Republican convention? How many times can anyone sit and listen again to trickle-down economics and all of its tired slogans?

But no, I don't expect to hear anything new at the Democon either. Conventions are rarely allowed these days to permit anything new. They are just political infomercials. But they do allow us to hear the candidates and the other party big shots make their case directly instead of in short sound bites.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#8813 at 09-05-2012 01:52 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 01:52 AM #8813
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
What I believe is that it is too easy to distract and manipulate people like you by playing on your fears of becoming even more incapable of dealing in the real world.

I believe it is much too easy to get you to believe there are bogymen keeping you from obtaining your fantasyland of magic ponies pooping out gold nuggets and freedom fries.

And I know you won't change. BUT, your current ability as a group to stymie progress will.

Tic, tic, tic....
blah, blah, blah, blah. Come on, a clever player like you should be able to come back with something better than this s***.







Post#8814 at 09-05-2012 04:52 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
09-05-2012, 04:52 AM #8814
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

I have been obliged to see some of the Democratic National Convention only as recorded video -- but so far I can say that the Democrats know what words are for -- as structure for action and the change of conscience and consciousness.

If three words describe well what makes the successful meeting of the challenges of a 4T not only possible but meaningful, those words are kindness, caution, and conscience -- and Democratic speakers get them as the Republicans don't.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8815 at 09-05-2012 07:28 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
09-05-2012, 07:28 AM #8815
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

But what I have seen at both conventions only reinforces what I have thought all along:

That the Republicans are the party of Spike TV, while the Democrats are the party of the Lifetime Channel.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#8816 at 09-05-2012 08:27 AM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
---
09-05-2012, 08:27 AM #8816
Join Date
Nov 2011
Posts
2,329

Left Arrow Nothing New

Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I'm not even going to watch the Democratic convention this time because I don't expect to see or hear anything new.
Sounds like a nice safe self-fulfilling prophecy. Thing is, with the way values work, even if something new were said, so many wouldn't be able to hear it.







Post#8817 at 09-05-2012 08:49 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 08:49 AM #8817
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
I have been obliged to see some of the Democratic National Convention only as recorded video -- but so far I can say that the Democrats know what words are for -- as structure for action and the change of conscience and consciousness.

If three words describe well what makes the successful meeting of the challenges of a 4T not only possible but meaningful, those words are kindness, caution, and conscience -- and Democratic speakers get them as the Republicans don't.
I guess, if you're the type who is mezmorized and drawn in by long eloquent speeches and kind words and saintly slogans and other liberal pump'em up and liberal make'em believe stuff then watching Democrats speak to you on TV is where you should be and where you belong for the rest of your life.







Post#8818 at 09-05-2012 09:26 AM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
---
09-05-2012, 09:26 AM #8818
Join Date
Nov 2011
Posts
2,329

Left Arrow Replay

The difference between Romney seeking votes in Massachusetts and Romney seeking votes in the middle of the country was quite impressive, no?







Post#8819 at 09-05-2012 09:43 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 09:43 AM #8819
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by B Butler View Post
Sounds like a nice safe self-fulfilling prophecy. Thing is, with the way values work, even if something new were said, so many wouldn't be able to hear it.
I hear what you're saying. I'm sorry folks, we just don't have the capital, the courage or the clout to radically change AMERICA is something the blue tribe or cult doesn't want to hear coming out of the mouth of their chosen leader who is supposed to be the human with devine powers.







Post#8820 at 09-05-2012 09:54 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
09-05-2012, 09:54 AM #8820
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by B Butler View Post
Perhaps in your dictionary.
In common usage. You have to recognize that "working folks" and "working people" are terms of the labor movement. Despite the presence of "work" as four of its letters, it has nothing to with whether or not one works; many people work who are not "working folks." "Working folks" are the lower class (although not the lowest class -- that's inhabited by the unemployed/unemployable). Members of the upper class usually work -- in fact, almost everyone works. But they are not "working folks."
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#8821 at 09-05-2012 10:00 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
09-05-2012, 10:00 AM #8821
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I hear what you're saying. I'm sorry folks, we just don't have the capital, the courage or the clout to radically change AMERICA is something the blue tribe or cult doesn't want to hear coming out of the mouth of their chosen leader
It's also not the entire truth. We do have the capital. Whether we have the courage to take it from those who are hogging it and put it to use remains to be seen, though.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#8822 at 09-05-2012 10:02 AM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-05-2012, 10:02 AM #8822
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I hear what you're saying. I'm sorry folks, we just don't have the capital, the courage or the clout to radically change AMERICA is something the blue tribe or cult doesn't want to hear coming out of the mouth of their chosen leader who is supposed to be the human with devine powers.
I really don't understand your point here. I haven't heard anything new re: the political arena in quite some time, much less anything RADICAL. How do you perceive the Democrats trying to radically change America via a human with divine powers? All I have heard is "rich people need to pony up for some stimulus if they won't create some jobs". That is hardly new, radical or magic.







Post#8823 at 09-05-2012 10:30 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
09-05-2012, 10:30 AM #8823
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
It's also not the entire truth. We do have the capital. Whether we have the courage to take it from those who are hogging it and put it to use remains to be seen, though.
It's just that they seek not to invest until their dream out of an Ayn Rand novel (a nightmare for the rest of us) is achieved. We all know how that goes -- the elites crack the whip and issue the barest sustenance of life and nothing more as they see fit.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#8824 at 09-05-2012 10:51 AM by Exile 67' [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 722]
---
09-05-2012, 10:51 AM #8824
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
722

Quote Originally Posted by B Butler View Post
The difference between Romney seeking votes in Massachusetts and Romney seeking votes in the middle of the country was quite impressive, no?
Romney's record and list of accomplishments and his achievements pretty much speak for themselves. Romney's a leader and there is little doubt about his abilities and skills as a leader. He doesn't have to seek the votes because the votes are already there. Obama, on the hand, is a pup as far as leadership is concerned and there is plenty of doubt about his abilities and skills as a leader. He's got to seek votes with the debt scale rising as he's delivering his liberal speech of plenty on Fox News channel.







Post#8825 at 09-05-2012 11:10 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
09-05-2012, 11:10 AM #8825
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Thumbs up Castro Democrats?

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Julian Castro = future president of the US. That guy is going places!
I did like his speech a lot. :
-----------------------------------------