Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 392







Post#9776 at 09-19-2012 10:11 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
09-19-2012, 10:11 AM #9776
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Exile 67' View Post
I think his comments are going to piss off the Democrat supporters more than the Republicans and the election is going to be decided by taxpayers who pay federal income tax and unemployed workers who aren't emotionally attached or dedicated to either party.
Youíre right to a degree. But you need to think it through more.

First, yes, he has helped solidified the Dems base and motivated it to get out the vote

Second, as I said, at least half of those in the 47% are Republicans. Yes, there is still the "What's the Matter with Kansas" problem of people like you voting against their own economic interest because they have been brainwashed now for several decades with GOP lies. But this Thurston Howell Romney bit must be weary some of you down. At least to the point of why vote. Letís watch what those polls on voter enthusiasm say over the next couple weeks; the Dems have already met and surpassed what was once a clear GOP advantage here - I think itís going to get worse for the GOP, a lot worse.

Third, and most importantly, the election is going to be decided by Independents and those people by a HUGE majority not only support the "government handouts" (SS, Medicare, Food Stamps, School lunch programs) but they also want to believe that America offers those who have fallen into the safety nets the potential to work their way out. Romney clearly said they can't and he doesn't care one way or the other if they do or if they don't - he has written them off. This is a killer in the Indy suburbs.

Fourth, this will not play well with retirees and to some extent those in the military. That is a killer in Florida and other key swing states where those sub-populations are key voting blocks.

Fifth, when coupled with the conventions outcome and the Libya misstep, this has brought utter chaos and dispiriting mood to the Team Romney and has completely demolished their attempt to control the message. The clock is ticking, in some states early voting has already started. Pretty hard to see how they can mitigate this downward spiral let alone turn it around Ė what possibly could they bring to the table in the next 50-something days that we havenít already heard over and over again?

Itís over.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

ďItís not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed Ö so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Itís much more akin to printing money.Ē - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#9777 at 09-19-2012 10:31 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
09-19-2012, 10:31 AM #9777
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
That's pretty funny. You can see Blount Is. from the bluff up the road from where I grew up.

Several of my friends from the neighborhood went on to join the military. They tend toward Ron Paul & Gary Johnson. None of them is as immature, as you seem to imagine, as to start a physical fight over political opinions.

For someone who talks so much shit, you really have no clue how the world works. That is how your generation will be remembered.
It's not funny at all and I donít' think anyone who has put on a uniform and served their country will see it as funny either.

To believe that those who put on a uniform and serve in combat are not like "us" not true Americans, but mercenaries, and who cares if they die or are maimed, they deserve it, is not a political opinion, it is traitorous.

If you have any doubt about that prove me wrong. Go talk to those friends or go to a bar near Blount and seriously present to some Marines Justin's traitorous screech as your own heartfelt opinion.

Report back when you can see again through those swollen eyes. Oh, and if the fingers aren't working, you can use some speech recognition software although that may be problematic as well. Oh, and when the cops and ambulance team come, Iím sure theyíll agree with the Marines and the other patrons that it is really just a shame what can happen to a person when they fall off their bar stool.

I await your report with anticipation. Just wish I too could be there - of course, only to observe your falling off that tricky bar stool.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

ďItís not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed Ö so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Itís much more akin to printing money.Ē - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#9778 at 09-19-2012 10:32 AM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 10:32 AM #9778
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Youíre right to a degree. But you need to think it through more.

First, yes, he has helped solidified the Dems base and motivated it to get out the vote

Second, as I said, at least half of those in the 47% are Republicans. Yes, there is still the "What's the Matter with Kansas" problem of people like you voting against their own economic interest because they have been brainwashed now for several decades with GOP lies. But this Thurston Howell Romney bit must be weary some of you down. At least to the point of why vote. Letís watch what those polls on voter enthusiasm say over the next couple weeks; the Dems have already met and surpassed what was once a clear GOP advantage here - I think itís going to get worse for the GOP, a lot worse.

Third, and most importantly, the election is going to be decided by Independents and those people by a HUGE majority not only support the "government handouts" (SS, Medicare, Food Stamps, School lunch programs) but they also want to believe that America offers those who have fallen into the safety nets the potential to work their way out. Romney clearly said they can't and he doesn't care one way or the other if they do or if they don't - he has written them off. This is a killer in the Indy suburbs.

Fourth, this will not play well with retirees and to some extent those in the military. That is a killer in Florida and other key swing states where those sub-populations are key voting blocks.

Fifth, when coupled with the conventions outcome and the Libya misstep, this has brought utter chaos and dispiriting mood to the Team Romney and has completely demolished their attempt to control the message. The clock is ticking, in some states early voting has already started. Pretty hard to see how they can mitigate this downward spiral let alone turn it around Ė what possibly could they bring to the table in the next 50-something days that we havenít already heard over and over again?

Itís over.
Nate Silver summed it up pretty well:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...racking-polls/

I do not mean to suggest that campaign controversies like this one never matter to voters. But I do think that reporters in Washington or New York, myself included, are not always the best judges of which are the exceptional cases. Furthermore, these judgments are likely to be influenced by the recent polls, meaning that analyses anticipating future reaction among voters may really be lagging indicators.

I have my own instincts about Mr. Romneyís remarks, which are roughly as follows: even if his outlook is a bit less negative than it seemed a week ago, he is nevertheless the underdog in the race, and not in a position where he can afford to alienate any voters who might allow him to climb to 50 percent of the vote. His coalition may already be drawn too narrowly, and this wonít help him with that.
Romney doesn't have the wiggle room to make too many of these types of mistakes. His biggest mistake (IMHO) is buying into the GOP talking point regarding those that don't pay income taxes. They are not all Obama supporters, and not all Obama supporters are in the "moocher" class. He needs a chunk of those voters he just called "victims". Victims of what? Retirement? The low pay of an enlisted recruit?







Post#9779 at 09-19-2012 10:36 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
09-19-2012, 10:36 AM #9779
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Nate Silver summed it up pretty well:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...racking-polls/



Romney doesn't have the wiggle room to make too many of these types of mistakes. His biggest mistake (IMHO) is buying into the GOP talking point regarding those that don't pay income taxes. They are not all Obama supporters, and not all Obama supporters are in the "moocher" class. He needs a chunk of those voters he just called "victims". Victims of what? Retirement? The low pay of an enlisted recruit?
Well said by both you and Nate
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

ďItís not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed Ö so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Itís much more akin to printing money.Ē - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#9780 at 09-19-2012 10:39 AM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
---
09-19-2012, 10:39 AM #9780
Join Date
Nov 2011
Posts
2,329

Left Arrow Victims of what?

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Romney doesn't have the wiggle room to make too many of these types of mistakes. His biggest mistake (IMHO) is buying into the GOP talking point regarding those that don't pay income taxes. They are not all Obama supporters, and not all Obama supporters are in the "moocher" class. He needs a chunk of those voters he just called "victims". Victims of what? Retirement? The low pay of an enlisted recruit?
Republican politics?







Post#9781 at 09-19-2012 10:45 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-19-2012, 10:45 AM #9781
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Thankfully, you are wildly out of step with most VA residents.
I can't say that VA will go Blue this time, though the demographics of NoVA tend to make me think it will. The GOP is threatening the livelihood of that area, and pretending that they can cut everything while adding more to Defense fools no one ... in or out of the Defense community.

BTW, I live in the very Red middle, but have friends and relatives all over the state. How about you?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#9782 at 09-19-2012 10:49 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
09-19-2012, 10:49 AM #9782
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Read it and weep, Romney supporters:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes...ReleaseID=1799

(Quinnipiac Polling Institute is not a Democrat-friendly pollster).

Quote Originally Posted by QPI

COLORADO: Obama 48 - Romney 47, compared to Romney 50 - 45 August 8
VIRGINIA: Obama 50 - Romney 46, compared to Obama 49 - 45 percent August 8
WISCONSIN: Obama 51 - Romney 45, compared to Obama 49 - 47 percent August 23

President Barack Obama hits the magic 50 percent mark among likely voters in Wisconsin and Virginia and catches Gov. Mitt Romney in a too-close-to call race in Colorado, according to a Quinnipiac University/New York Times/CBS News Swing State poll released today.

Voters in these three critical states see the candidates as about even handling the economy, while President Obama is seen as better able to handle health care, Medicare and an international crisis. Voters in each state say the president cares about their needs and problems while Romney doesn't care. The Obama-Romney matchup in each of these states shows:

Colorado: Obama at 48 percent to Romney's 47 percent, too close to call, but a reverse of Romney's 50 - 45 percent lead August 8;
Virginia: Obama at 50 percent to Romney's 46 percent, compared to Obama's 49 - 45 percent lead August 8
Wisconsin: Obama edges Romney 51 - 45 percent, compared to Obama at 49 - 47 percent August 23 after Romney selected Wisconsin U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan as his running mate.

Voters say Obama would do a better job handling an international crisis, 50 - 43 percent in Colorado, 53 - 42 percent in Virginia and 53 - 41 percent in Wisconsin.

"All the bounces seem to be over as the candidates buckle down for a seven-week down- to-the-wire race to the finish. The races are close, but Gov. Mitt Romney is losing ground to President Barack Obama in Colorado and Wisconsin and still trailing in Virginia," said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. (For a downloadable video of Quinnipiac Polling Institute Assistant Director Tim Malloy discussing the survey, click on http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes...nters/polling- institute/presidential-swing-states-(co-va-and-wi)/release-detail?ReleaseID=1799)

Voters say Obama cares about their needs and problems, while Romney does not:

Colorado: Obama cares 55 - 41 percent while Romney doesn't care 50 - 45 percent;
Virginia: Obama cares 59 - 37 percent while Romney doesn't care 50 - 44 percent;
Wisconsin: Obama cares 60 - 37 percent while Romney doesn't care 51 - 43 percent.

"Voters in all three key states, by roughly double digits, say that the country is worse off now than it was four years ago, reflecting a Romney campaign theme," Brown added. "In Wisconsin and Colorado, voters by the same margin say they and their families are worse off, also. But in Virginia, where the unemployment rate is under 6 percent and among the nation's lowest, voters are split down the middle on whether they are better or worse off during the Obama presidency.

"President Obama has an edge over Gov. Romney on who can best handle a variety of issues - health care, Medicare, national security, and women's reproductive rights.
This is before the infamous leak of Mitt Romney telling big donors that they are the only people who matter in America because they are the only ones with the ability and willingness to make $50K contributions in return for... well, I didn't see the menu... so that they can have a President who thinks that cutting taxes for economic elites will solve everything.

It now looks as if President Obama will win every state that Gore and Kerry both won in 2000 (242 electoral votes), New Hampshire (4), Nevada (6), New Mexico (5 -- cumulative 257), and either Florida (29), Ohio (18), or Virginia (13) clinches. Colorado clinches with either New Hampshire(13 together) or Iowa (17 together).
Last edited by pbrower2a; 09-19-2012 at 02:00 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#9783 at 09-19-2012 11:01 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-19-2012, 11:01 AM #9783
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
That's pretty funny. You can see Blount Is. from the bluff up the road from where I grew up.

Several of my friends from the neighborhood went on to join the military. They tend toward Ron Paul & Gary Johnson. None of them is as immature, as you seem to imagine, as to start a physical fight over political opinions.

For someone who talks so much shit, you really have no clue how the world works. That is how your generation will be remembered.
PW wasn't suggesting that Justin talk politics, rather that he use a little of his mercenary baby-killer lingo. Based on personal expereience, I'm not sure that will go as well.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#9784 at 09-19-2012 11:07 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-19-2012, 11:07 AM #9784
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
... Do you believe they have families who consider themselves honor-bound to avenge their senseless deaths?
This is a source problem in tribal societies in general. The cycle never ends. This is no different, in any substantive way, from the Scots-Irish feuds in Appalachia or everywhere between everyone in the Balkans.

Breakng that loop is a central challenge.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#9785 at 09-19-2012 11:31 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
09-19-2012, 11:31 AM #9785
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You make it sound like you've actually refuted those. You haven't.
Weak. You make claims, pretend they are somehow self-evident or axiomatic, and then insist that the burden is on other people to disprove them. That's not the way it works, buddy.

Let's take the first one - 'they are killing us' where I specified that it was being done in Afghanistan.
So here's an example of someone who you believe is not "us"-



I don't know, he looks kind of like us.
See those funny clothes he's wearing in that picture? Those mark him as a mercenary -- a killer-for-hire. I'm not sure about you, but I'm sure as hell not one of those. Nor are the people I associate with (I try very hard to stick with only decent folks). So that guy is as much "we" with me as the guy in black here is:


I've got sons, too, you see. Oh, and by the way, your guys in those costumes are pointing guns at him. So I can kind of imagine a little bit where he's coming from. But that's neither here nor there... in any case, he's not "us", and the killers-for-hire aren't "us", either.

...the typical guy who dons a uniform and goes overseas to fight for his country...
See, there's another of those wholly-unsupported, and factually untenable claims of yours. Those guys aren't fighting for their country overseas, unless you think that 'their country' wholly consists of the rulers of the empire that seats itself in their country.
And in any case, the more sympathetic person is the one who fights to defend his own country in his own country, from people who are in his country against his will. I realize that's not terribly germane to the unsupported claim you're making, but it seemed worth saying nonetheless.

---

Oh yeah, and you can't let it go without again making your unsupported, untenable claim that those people are "protecting [my] life". You leave claim unsupported, of course, because it is simply flat-out false.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc Ítre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŗ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce Ítre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#9786 at 09-19-2012 11:42 AM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 11:42 AM #9786
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Damn. No shit.
Looks like we're moving backwards, though. More and more every day.
I think that this is "working as intended" wrt T4T. We will stuck in gridlock for the near future. I have seen some pretty dogmatic comments from PoC67, so he is not immune. I have also seen comments from Eric that he is aware that he is perhaps too rigid in his thinking. Obviously you and I both have our own biases as well. Not a whole lot on this forum is troubling, actually. Everyone that regularly posts is intelligent and thoughtful. Once you branch out beyond the (relatively) well-behaved commentary you see here, all hell breaks loose and one could get a pretty nasty taste for the public at large. I think Odin has remarked with dismay at the rhetoric at DU. Huffington post comments are a cesspit as well. I have a Facebook friend that lives out her F'd-up love life in FB for all to see.

I have just about cut out any discussionn of politics with my and my husband's families. It never goes anywhere and leads to people that you love shouting at you. No thanks, I'll keep my opinions to myself. They are just my opinions, I am not an economist, sociologist, military expert, geologist, political pundit, etc. I just have opinions based on what I read, and I read quite a bit.

tldr: This is a nice place to express opinions and get additional information. The squabbling in the world drowns out rational thought.







Post#9787 at 09-19-2012 11:52 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
---
09-19-2012, 11:52 AM #9787
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
5,196

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
I can't say that VA will go Blue this time, though the demographics of NoVA tend to make me think it will. The GOP is threatening the livelihood of that area, and pretending that they can cut everything while adding more to Defense fools no one ... in or out of the Defense community.

BTW, I live in the very Red middle, but have friends and relatives all over the state. How about you?
I don't like to get too specific about my personal info, but I have lived here my entire life, primarily in central VA. I have relatives all over the state, and have spent extensive time in all parts of the state, as well as D.C. There are only a few reasons why Democrats have any chance in VA:

1. The state's population is 20% black, and here as elsewhere, black voters overwhelmingly support the Democrats. Black Virginians are generally very socially conservative, and usually vote in larger numbers for Republicans than black voters do nationally. But not enough to make a major difference. McCain got 4% of the black vote nationally in 2008. In VA he got 8%, which was probably his highest percentage in any state.
2. The Democratic Party has a long history and tradition in the state going all the way back to Thomas Jefferson. Among some of the residual "sons and daughters of Confederate veterans" types, there is some yearning for conservative Democrats and distaste for voting for the party of Lincoln.
3. There is some blue collar support for conservative Democrats, as there is in West Virginia. Both 2 and 3 are very faint at this point, but enough to sway some "Reagan Democrats" to occasionally vote for a (D).
4. There are a lot of people who work in D.C. and live in NOVA. They are often transplants from other parts of the country (or world), and some of them are very left-leaning. However, generally speaking, the more conservative D.C. workers often choose to live in VA, while the more left wing ones often choose to live in MD. The biggest attraction for those choosing VA is low taxes. So it's hardly a left wing bastion like parts of the Northeast. It's a swing area that leans slightly (D), but it has been expanding farther south.
5. In each of the three major metro areas (NOVA, Ricmond, Tidewater) there are a certain number of "upscale" white suburbanites who can be swayed one way or the other, and sometimes get sucked in like lemmings to the "fashionable" attitudes of the left wing cultural elite. Those voters are very shallow and fickle, however, and are usually outnumbered by their conservative neighbors. There are similarly a few areas with significant university presence (like Charlottesville) that sometimes swing (D), but very unreliably, since the "townies" tend to be very conservative.

As for the rest of the picture, the Richmond area is pretty much traditionally Southern and conservative. If you drive through the surrounding areas, you will see Tea Party billboards and Republican yard signs everywhere. The Tidewater region is the same among native residents, but also jam-packed with military personnel and their families. The rest of the state is rural farmland, and the people there are very traditional and culturally conservative. I believe you've said you live in Lynchburg, so you know what I mean. You could be the only one there who holds your views. I'm guessing maybe you're an academic of some sort. VA is also a right-to-work state with a very limited state government (the state constitution was drafted by Thomas Jefferson and enacted prior to the U.S. Constitution), and as such, unions basically have no political power in the state.

Bottom line: VA is an ideologically conservative state, with a moderate temperament. If voters as a whole get a whiff that a Democrat is a genuine left-winger, that candidate is DOA on a statewide level. Mark Warner is the most popular Democrat in the state, and he is an extremely moderate (at least in his surface presentation) Clintonite-type figure without the personal baggage. It will be interesting to see how his vote for Obamacare effects him when he's up for re-election.

Aside from the few genuine left wingers in the state and black voters who will vote for any (D), enough of those I mentioned above were fooled into thinking Obama was a moderate, and fed up with the GOP, to produce the result in 2008. I find it almost impossible to believe that Obama will win the state again. Not entirely impossible, but almost. The one thing the Democrats have going for them is that the VA Republican Party is even more inept than the national GOP, and extremely lacking in talent. Nevertheless, they have had a bigger sweep since 2009 than they ever had in the 90s. McDonnell won with almost 59% of the vote, beating George Allen's previous record from 1993. Generally speaking, when Republicans win in VA, they get huge margins. When Democrats win, they squeeze by with 51%. That's why 2008 was such a huge anomaly. We'll find out how much of an anomaly it was. Anecdotally, I saw many, many Obama bumper stickers in the areas I frequent in 2008. I see almost NONE there now. They have completely disappeared. If Obama does win the state again, I predict it will be by the tiniest of margins.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 09-19-2012 at 12:38 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#9788 at 09-19-2012 12:19 PM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
---
09-19-2012, 12:19 PM #9788
Join Date
Nov 2011
Posts
2,329

Left Arrow Intelligent and Thoughtful Muck

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Everyone that regularly posts is intelligent and thoughtful.
Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Wow. I totally disagree with you on that one.
To me it's more like wading through the muck to find the pearls.
It's a matter of whether one has a somewhat open mind. A lot of posts are intelligent and thoughtful if you are willing to buy into their basic way of seeing things. If not...







Post#9789 at 09-19-2012 12:21 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 12:21 PM #9789
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Wow. I totally disagree with you on that one.
To me it's more like wading through the muck to find the pearls.

Here you are making my point.

This thread itself is dominated by reasons that the candidates suck, or throwing poll numbers back and forth.
Nothing about how either one of them will improve the country in the next four years.
Because, of course, neither of them will.
So people are left with the nastiness of cheering for their favorite team, and smacking around the other one.
This is supposed to be progress?
I agree with you here. If one ascribes to the book at all, they know it sucks for a reason other than anyone running for office today.

Poll numbers are just fun to toss around, they don't mean much. You CAN learn much from the back and forth from people discussing them .







Post#9790 at 09-19-2012 12:28 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 12:28 PM #9790
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by B Butler View Post
It's a matter of whether one has a somewhat open mind. A lot of posts are intelligent and thoughtful if you are willing to buy into their basic way of seeing things. If not...
I do possess an ability to see most sides of an argument and I can argue from different sides. Most posts on this forum that I don't agree with do have a discernable thought process behind them even if I find it faulty. I don't think unintelligent or poorly-spoken people would find it comfortable here.
Last edited by Aramea; 09-19-2012 at 12:54 PM.







Post#9791 at 09-19-2012 12:29 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 12:29 PM #9791
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Uh, if you have to agree with the biases of the poster to find a post intelligent and thoughtful, it isn't.
I should clarify my prior post. The posters are intelligent, but not all of their posts are.







Post#9792 at 09-19-2012 12:41 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
---
09-19-2012, 12:41 PM #9792
Join Date
Jan 2010
Posts
1,995

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
...I have seen some pretty dogmatic comments from PoC67, so he is not immune.
What? Dog-matic? Moi?

No Aramea, you must be mistaken. I am obviously perfect in all of my interactions and thought processes. I always give everyone the utmost consideration i/r/t their beliefs and opinions. And, I'm the most humble of all the posters on this MB!

So, dog-matic? No. Cat-matic? Definitely!

Prince

PS:...and, I'm also ....guilty as charged!(Shhh! Don't tell anyone.)
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#9793 at 09-19-2012 12:45 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-19-2012, 12:45 PM #9793
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
What? Dog-matic? Moi?

No Aramea, you must be mistaken. I am obviously perfect in all of my interactions and thought processes. I always give everyone the utmost consideration i/r/t their beliefs and opinions. And, I'm the most humble of all the posters on this MB!

So, dog-matic? No. Cat-matic? Definitely!

Prince

PS:...and, I'm also ....guilty as charged!(Shhh! Don't tell anyone.)
Cat-matic it is, then! Thanks for the much-needed laugh today.

(your secret is safe with me )







Post#9794 at 09-19-2012 12:57 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-19-2012, 12:57 PM #9794
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Actually, the focus on swing states is misplaced (though I like to indulge in it too!). Since no-one but a moron or a sadly-deceived person or a fool would actually vote for Romney, Obama's re-election seems assured. The real question is his nationwide margin of victory. It must be large enough to carry out the tea party from congress on his coattails, or we get 4 more years of stalemate and inaction.

Yes Prince, I am being very cat-matic! Now the question is, are you and the rest of the american people going to be caught cat-napping?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#9795 at 09-19-2012 01:14 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-19-2012, 01:14 PM #9795
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Whose definition of just and fair society are we using, Eric?

If yours, then I may choose not to participate.
It will be time soon, when the 4T will dispense with trickle-down theories and scapegoating of "those who don't take responsibility" who should not get "the tax money I earned" etc etc., and then you and everyone will realize that we are all in society together and everyone needs to do their part. We are not just individuals; when one person suffers, that could be you or me next time. And help cannot be done with charity alone and only some willing souls participating while others get off scot free from doing their part. That is fair and just.
If determined by a majority/plurality of the U.S. Electorate(you know what I mean), then I suspect you believe that Coolidge and Reagan were un-just and un-fair. Or were they someone else's version of just and fair?
They were unfair and unjust, for sure. And the results of their policies speak for themselves as well. What is unfair and unjust, also does not work, and society and everyone in it suffers. Results of Coolidge = Great Depression. Results of Reagan and his follower GW Bush = Great Recession. The need in America today = to wise up. Fool us once, shame on you politicians. Fool us twice, shame on we the people!
It seems to me that you have your version of just and fair and there's nothing more to be said on the topic.
If so, I would say that getting rid of that type of uncompromising thinking is exactly what might be productive
for us(ie: The USA), moving forward.

Prince

PS: So Eric, how do you like them apples?
Not the delicious kind! Fortunately this is not "my" version, but there's broad consensus on this, and Obama's version is already well-compromised and moderate; although there is also a large and active element of rich folks, religious-right folks and libertarian folks who don't agree. These folks must be defeated justly and fairly in a majority vote of the US electorate, unimpeded by vote tampering by Republican officials and legislators-- and soon, so that the boiling frustration on both sides doesn't get to the point where we feel we must separate as a people in one fashion or another (this being 4T time after all).

Listening to Obama on Letterman last night, I get the impression that anyone who can actually listen to him and still doesn't think he is a "moderate," is so far out into right field that the whole field would sink and fall over if these folks on the right had their way.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#9796 at 09-19-2012 01:19 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
---
09-19-2012, 01:19 PM #9796
Join Date
Jan 2010
Posts
1,995

Quote Originally Posted by Eric
Yes Prince, I am being very cat-matic!
No Eric, I'm the one that's cat-matic.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Actually, the focus on swing states is misplaced (though I like to indulge in it too!). Since no-one but a moron or a sadly-deceived person or a fool would actually vote for Romney, Obama's re-election seems assured. The real question is his nationwide margin of victory. It must be large enough to carry out the tea party from congress on his coattails, or we get 4 more years of stalemate and inaction.
Suprise, suprise.

Quote Originally Posted by Eric
Now the question is, are you and the rest of the american people going to be caught cat-napping?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................... ..!



Prince

PS: Eric="broken-record"!
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#9797 at 09-19-2012 01:23 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-19-2012, 01:23 PM #9797
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
What is it about us that turns a blind eye to the part our side has played in the destruction of the New Deal?
Well, not me of course.

http://philosopherswheel.com/eric.ht...nal Editorials

Let's get rid of the Tea Party first now, and then we can turn our attention to the Democrats and keep their feet to the fire! We need to do it, for sure! Glass-Steagall must be reinstated, welfare deform must be re-formed, etc...
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#9798 at 09-19-2012 01:32 PM by princeofcats67 [at joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,995]
---
09-19-2012, 01:32 PM #9798
Join Date
Jan 2010
Posts
1,995

Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Cat-matic it is, then! Thanks for the much-needed laugh today.

(your secret is safe with me )
Your welcome, Aramea. I'm glad I was able to be part of brightening your day.

A lot of the conflicts on the MB are rather ridiculous, IMO. I once called Brian Rush a "dis-embodied brain"!(I also recall refering to him as a "Borg"). He of course was much more patient with me at the time. Live and learn at our own speeds, I suppose. I've had a couple of somewhat serious dis-agreements on the MB(always political). I'm done with it, I hope(fingers crossed).

I really wish the election was over and done with so maybe people might get back to discussing the Generational Theory more. All in due time, I guess.

Take care,

Prince
I Am A Child of God/Nature/The Universe
I Think Globally and Act Individually(and possibly, voluntarily join-together with Others)
I Pray for World Peace & I Choose Less-Just Say: "NO!, Thank You."







Post#9799 at 09-19-2012 01:35 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-19-2012, 01:35 PM #9799
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
No Eric, I'm the one that's cat-matic.
But I love cats too, so I want to steal your slogan. Now, I know, taxes are theft and all, so I feel it is "just" and "fair" for me to steal your slogan too.


Suprise, suprise.



Prince

PS: Eric="broken-record"!
Yes indeed; listening to the rhetoric imposed upon us by one side, being stuck in a loop for 32 years, means the replies to it are also stuck in a loop; they have to be; some folks just don't get it! So on and on we go; but for how long? Not past this 4T, I would imagine.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................... ..!
Wake up from your nap, Cat!

EDIT: Hey! I think my words above were so clear, inspiring and apt, that I will hit the replay button! They are as cool as Good Time by Owl City and Pray by JB; worth listening to over and over! So Prince, "broken record" is passe, man; stuck on replay is the 21st century version! Wake up and get hip!

It will be time soon, when the 4T will dispense with trickle-down theories and scapegoating of "those who don't take responsibility" who should not get "the tax money I earned" etc etc., and then you and everyone will realize that we are all in society together and everyone needs to do their part. We are not just individuals; when one person suffers, that could be you or me next time. And help cannot be done with charity alone and only some willing souls participating while others get off scot free from doing their part. That is fair and just.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 09-19-2012 at 01:43 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#9800 at 09-19-2012 01:38 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
09-19-2012, 01:38 PM #9800
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
I really wish the election was over and done with so maybe people might get back to discussing the Generational Theory more. All in due time, I guess.
Me too.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
-----------------------------------------