Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 412







Post#10276 at 09-28-2012 12:59 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
09-28-2012, 12:59 PM #10276
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
Exile won't be submitting posts anymore.
Oh crap, I've been a little slow on the uptake, KIA.

Sorry. Go ahead snark away - you've earned it!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10277 at 09-28-2012 01:11 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
---
09-28-2012, 01:11 PM #10277
Join Date
Sep 2012
Posts
1,789

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Maybe you can start with translating this to us lesser mortals and fleshing it out a little?
Why doesn't he think that the people who vote for government to take money from others and recieve it themselves aren't a bunch of nihilists?







Post#10278 at 09-28-2012 01:16 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
---
09-28-2012, 01:16 PM #10278
Join Date
Jan 2011
Posts
743

Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
Why doesn't he think that the people who vote for government to take money from others and recieve it themselves aren't a bunch of nihilists?

I don't think that is a valid definition for 'nihilism'.







Post#10279 at 09-28-2012 01:19 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
09-28-2012, 01:19 PM #10279
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
Why doesn't he think that the people who vote for government to take money from others and recieve it themselves aren't a bunch of nihilists?
Dude, it doesn't matter who we vote for. I am part of the 53% and one way or another, some of my money is going to go to other people.

We have a small bit of choice, though. Do we want our taxes to go to investment subsidies and government spending for corporate projects owned by people like Romney, who pay a lower effective rate than us?

Or, do we want our taxes to go to things like medicine and education, so there's some slim hope that future generations can get good enough jobs to pay us back some of that Social Security and Medicare we've been shelling out every year?

Or... if you think Obama is a secret Muslim intent on destroying America... let the grownups talk. And vote.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#10280 at 09-28-2012 01:27 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
09-28-2012, 01:27 PM #10280
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I don't care if he's a Muslim or not, but he's as much of a corporate whore as any other politician.
What's the frame of reference? We can sit on the outside, surrounded by the great literature of political theory, untempted by real power, and agree on that conclusion... sure.

Inside the beltway, where everyone is or works for a corporate whore? Then there is some small degree of relative difference, I think.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#10281 at 09-28-2012 01:40 PM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
---
09-28-2012, 01:40 PM #10281
Join Date
Aug 2002
Posts
220

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I don't care if he's a Muslim or not, but he's as much of a corporate whore as any other politician.
i think obama would rather not have to ask large corporate donors for cash. he's spoken out against citizens united. i believe at heart he'd prefer public financing.

romney, on the other hand, loves hanging with the rich folks.

until we get rid of citizens united and reform our political system, you're still going to see corporate influence.

both parties take advantage of it.

but this liberal will still give money to and vote for dems based on dozens of other issues, while at the same time advocate for real change.







Post#10282 at 09-28-2012 01:46 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
---
09-28-2012, 01:46 PM #10282
Join Date
Jan 2011
Location
Back in Jax
Posts
1,962

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
A whore is a whore. I'd say something about putting lipstick on a pig, but pigs are actually pretty cool.
Hey, I'm not a big fan of Obama and I've been picking apart his sell-outs from the start. He's screwed up on the NDAA requests, PATRIOT Act requests, InsurerCare, investor welfare, hell I could go on and on...

But then Romney comes along and starts bitching that Obama hasn't been enough of a corporate whore! Whoa there, I gotta draw the line!

Of course, if you really want to go in the other direction, Jill Stein & Gary Johnson are the only choices. They won't win, but there's a chance that growing 3rd party turnouts might someday get someone's attention and cause... something different to happen. Maybe. Someday.

But right now we can at least weigh in on the question of whether or not Obama has been enough of a corporate whore, or if we should get one with even less shame.
Last edited by JohnMc82; 09-28-2012 at 01:48 PM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#10283 at 09-28-2012 01:53 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
09-28-2012, 01:53 PM #10283
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Gee, everyone is channeling Lloyd Bentsen here.
He was a fine politician. We could use more of his type. Maybe when the Deep South goes rational in its politics such will be the norm for conservatism.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#10284 at 09-28-2012 02:41 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-28-2012, 02:41 PM #10284
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Let me kindly remind you that not all GIs thought well of "that man in the white house" who passed the New Deal, and JPT might be referring to those kinds of GIs.

~Chas'88
The vast majority of them were members of the plutocrat class or were Lost, not GIs.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10285 at 09-28-2012 02:48 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-28-2012, 02:48 PM #10285
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
The Lost that I knew weren't all that impressed with him either. My GI grandparents were graduating high school at the time and they weren't impressed with him either. If anything they seemed to think of him as just another corrupt politician.
Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
The GIs disdained, even despised, anyone they perceived to be looking for a handout, or "on the dole". Social Security and Medicare were different from welfare in their view, whether that was valid or not.
Neither of you are old enoug to speak for either generation ... especially the Lost. My parents graduated from high school in 1932. Beleiive me, they werre happy to see anything tha looked like progress. Now I will say that the view in the North was probabaly a lot better than the view in the South. But then, the South has acted against its own best interest for a long time.

If Roosevelt hadn't used the miltary budget as a tool to sabilize the South, the entire region woudl have dried up and blown away. That's why he won big even there.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10286 at 09-28-2012 03:00 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-28-2012, 03:00 PM #10286
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
I've heard that some polling organizations skew their polls in order to set a narrative, and then bring them into line as the election nears.

National Journal: Polls Show Close Races in Nevada, North Carolina, and Virginia


National Journal had one of the outlier polls I cited as suspicious a few days ago, showing Obama with a 7 point lead nationally. We've been told in the past few weeks that Obama was crushing Romney in the swing states. Now this?

And there is more:

MEDIA IGNORE INDEPENDENTS' SWING TOWARD ROMNEY


Yes, this is a conservative source. However, the article provides numbers from a variety of polls. Long story short: in most polls, Romney leads Obama among independents, sometimes by a significant margin. This is true of national polls and state polls. Obama's leads in recent polls have all been a result of those polls weighting for a very high Democrat turnout, in many cases higher than 2008. What's more, when it comes to actual voter registration, Democrats have declined since 2008, and those voters have registered as independents.

So maybe the skewed polls are coming back to reality now that the election is nearing. The media made its big convention push for Obama, and now they have to revert to something resembling the truth in order to salvage their credibility? I thought it was Rasmussen that had to do that?
\
Hey, how about that betting pool? We all throw in and the winners collect; you can have all the Romney you want.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10287 at 09-28-2012 03:16 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-28-2012, 03:16 PM #10287
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
There were Missionaries who hated FDR as well. One was my great-aunt--I've seen a letter she wrote after the 1940 election--she talked about him just the way lots of Republicans talk about Obama.

I do think immigration reform might be the first outcome of a Democratic victory, because the Republicans will have to grasp that they aren't going to have a future if they keep talking about sending millions back to where they came from. Serious economic work, though, is less likely.

As you have probably noticed, my visits here have become very infrequent. What has happened here is very sad: most of you have only one thing to talk about any more; each other. It's become a very dysfunctional family, in which, as in most dysfunctional families, the least functional people set the tone. Bill Strauss would be very sad to see it and so am I, particularly when I think of the early years, dominated by the joy of making new science. This is also rather similar to the current state of the US Congress.

As for the election--I believe I started this thread, three years or so ago--the House is now very definitely in play. The Democrats are looking stronger in the Senate, but there's no way they're going to come out with 60 votes. That means we wouldn't have any more government shutdown threats--reconciliation can take care of fundamental budget issues--but the remaining Republicans will be more conservative than ever with Lugar and Snowe gone. I don't know if there are some among them who will be willing to foresake the Tea Party and the Koch's superpac out of self-preservation. And meanwhile, I don't think anyone has any idea how to fix the economy now because it's so structurally unsound. Wages are too low to create a boom, and we tried lending everyone money they couldn't pay. What's left?
This is and has been my number 1 issue. We are deciding to be a banana republic, when the knowledge of how to end this is right there for us to use. Now, this death wish is reversable, but that requires aggressive action. I don't see anyone among the Democrats willing to take a stand for aggressive anything. So where are we then?

We have a 4T, and we have an opportunity. We also have well funded opposition with enough of the population behind the money to make change very hard. All we're lacking is leadership. This is where Odin, and a few others, misunderstand the role of the "great man", as they choose to see it. Change doesn't happen on its own until the need for change is undeniable (look at Spain and Greece for example of change denied too long). On the other hand, a great leader can spark the change. Obama looked like that guy 4 years ago. I'm sceptical he can do it now, but I hope I'm wrong.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10288 at 09-28-2012 03:20 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
---
09-28-2012, 03:20 PM #10288
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
'47 cohort still lost in Falwelland
Posts
16,709

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Damn. We're such losers.
Now I'm gonna cry ...
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10289 at 09-28-2012 03:25 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
09-28-2012, 03:25 PM #10289
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
The vast majority of them were members of the plutocrat class or were Lost, not GIs.
I beg to differ. I know for a fact my 1905 & 1909 grandparents fell into that category. One having the reason of coming from a long line of Republicans going back to the party's founding. The other being a low-level executive for the Philadelphia Electric Company. I'd hardly call them plutocrats, though they did trend more towards the Lost in behavior and actions than GI often times, which is something I will concede on.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#10290 at 09-28-2012 03:27 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
09-28-2012, 03:27 PM #10290
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Jesus H. Christ, if I wanted my birthday posted on this forum, don't you think I would post it myself?
That was your birth month. I can't remember your birthday, although I suppose I could look it up. And so could anyone else. It's not really private information -- in contrast to some of the stuff you've shared about me, please note. So what's the big deal anyway?
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#10291 at 09-28-2012 04:06 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
09-28-2012, 04:06 PM #10291
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
It's not a big deal, but you're a self-centered douchebag and you have no business sharing personal info about me in public.
The only reason I shared stuff about you in the past is because you brought up the subject, and there's plenty more that I could have brought up but didn't.
But I can, if you really want to go there again.
Rani, it really isn't worth it. Honestly.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#10292 at 09-28-2012 04:35 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
---
09-28-2012, 04:35 PM #10292
Join Date
Sep 2012
Posts
1,789

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
This is and has been my number 1 issue. We are deciding to be a banana republic, when the knowledge of how to end this is right there for us to use. Now, this death wish is reversable, but that requires aggressive action. I don't see anyone among the Democrats willing to take a stand for aggressive anything. So where are we then?

We have a 4T, and we have an opportunity. We also have well funded opposition with enough of the population behind the money to make change very hard. All we're lacking is leadership. This is where Odin, and a few others, misunderstand the role of the "great man", as they choose to see it. Change doesn't happen on its own until the need for change is undeniable (look at Spain and Greece for example of change denied too long). On the other hand, a great leader can spark the change. Obama looked like that guy 4 years ago. I'm sceptical he can do it now, but I hope I'm wrong.
You keep speaking as if we will all be going to go down the banana republic road with the left. I don't need much as far as change is concerned. I'm not in love with a male or a slave to free birth control. Have you ever been in a rich big types house or a WFQ's house? There's a major difference between the top end liberals and the low end liberals? Whose issue is that to address, Obama's or Romney's? BTW, there's a major difference between my house and Romney's as well but that isn't an issue between me and Romney.
Last edited by Classic-X'er; 09-28-2012 at 05:00 PM.







Post#10293 at 09-28-2012 04:45 PM by Galen [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 1,017]
---
09-28-2012, 04:45 PM #10293
Join Date
Aug 2010
Posts
1,017

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
So being on the losing side runs in the family; how nice for you.
Actually, the view that they held was quite common among other GIs that I knew as well. Those who fought in the war tended to be less vocal about it with a few notable exceptions.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises

Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long







Post#10294 at 09-28-2012 05:22 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:22 PM #10294
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
I'm naturally attracted to personal challenges that involve taking on and/or beating significant odds. My purpose here is and has been to keep the liberal blue reign (liberal crohnies) in check.
A better challenge would be to challenge your own ideas and question the authorities you have accepted. Learn more about how the world actually works, instead of how the conservative ideologues have painted it for you.

Still, it's fine to have other views represented and to keep we blue meanies on our toes. So, you are to be classic now instead of an exile. How does that change of handle describe your purpose here now?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10295 at 09-28-2012 05:24 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:24 PM #10295
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Rani, a cusper? Wasn't she born in the mid-1960s (somewhere between 1965 and 1967, IIRC)? That's pure X territory, albeit early wave.
No, Obama's the cusper 1961; The Rani is 1966. I would end the cusp at 1964, the end of the demographic boom. Mid 60s is core.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 09-28-2012 at 05:26 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10296 at 09-28-2012 05:25 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:25 PM #10296
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
Before we get all giddy, let's keep in mind the limitations of the Presidency and how they affect this President. If anything, the game just moved to the Dome ... especially the House. Revenue bills have to originate there, and the Tea Party may still rule that roost through 2014 ... or even longer.

Remember, NO is much easier than YES, and those guys are happy with NO most of the time..
That's right, and the generic score is about all we have as an indicator, and it's only +1 Democrats at the moment.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10297 at 09-28-2012 05:27 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:27 PM #10297
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Rush View Post
One important question regarding the next four years is how much of the Republican foot-dragging we've seen was political strategic calculation designed to kill Obama's reelection chances. In his second term that won't be an issue, so any political as opposed to ideological obstructionism should disappear.
Count on it to continue as strongly as ever. That is Obama's hope but it's totally in vain. The Republicans will just set a new political goal.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10298 at 09-28-2012 05:28 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:28 PM #10298
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Jesus H. Christ, if I wanted my birthday posted on this forum, don't you think I would post it myself?
Asshole.
Didn't know Jesus had a middle initial. Come on, we all know you're a typical Scorpio
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10299 at 09-28-2012 05:29 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:29 PM #10299
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Gee, everyone is channeling Lloyd Bentsen here.
Always fun to do.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10300 at 09-28-2012 05:37 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
09-28-2012, 05:37 PM #10300
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by the bouncer View Post
i think obama would rather not have to ask large corporate donors for cash. he's spoken out against citizens united. i believe at heart he'd prefer public financing.

romney, on the other hand, loves hanging with the rich folks.

until we get rid of citizens united and reform our political system, you're still going to see corporate influence.

both parties take advantage of it.

but this liberal will still give money to and vote for dems based on dozens of other issues, while at the same time advocate for real change.
Right, and also the Dems are more likely to support reforms; the Republicans we can count on to oppose any and all reforms, as they have.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece
-----------------------------------------