Originally Posted by playwrite

I realize you're a little slow on the draw, so let me help you out some.

It's not the value of Big Bird to your students (what, you're running a "buy gold" or "small arms" class for your local militia?) that is the issue. The issue is even BIG Bird doesn't have enough feathers let alone dollars to make up for Romney adding $5T to the deficit with his tax cuts for the rich and another $2T for defense spending that even the generals don't want.

If you believe otherwise, you are about as far removed from a conservative deficit hawk as you can be or, you need to wake the F up.

You can tell when deficit hawks are serious when they stop talking about cutting PBS and NPR. Together, those two programs are loose change from the Oval Office sofas. Anyone talking cutting PBS/NPR funding and raising defense isn't serious about the deficit at all. When they add a 20% tax cut cherry on top they are officially delusional.

Originally Posted by Aramea

While super-sensitive people on both sides argue about racism, most people are moving on.

I'll attempt to channel The Rani here:

wow.

did you watch that whole thing before you posted it?

the extremes to which folks will go to avoid being thought of as "politically correct."

In finding all about the huge sack of shit of Romney lies from last night, I came across this great site that seems dedicated to killing off people's magic ponies -

http://veracitystew.com/2012/10/04/v...ebate-of-2012/

For just a few examples from the debate that I have missed -

Veracity Check: Cleaning up after Mitt and the First Presidential Debate of 2012

Claim: President Obama said “Companies get a tax deduction for moving jobs overseas.” To this Romney replied most condescendingly “Look, I’ve been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you are talking about. I maybe need to get a new accountant. The idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case.”

Veracity Check: President Obama was actually describing a tax break for ordinary business expense, including deductions allowed for a company if it closes its plant in the United States and moves it to another country. Lehrer moved on without giving President Obama time to rebut. But essentially, Mitt got away with claiming to be an “authority” on business practices, and was clearly given the benefit of the doubt when he was so horribly wrong.

Claim: During the debate, Romney claimed that “five studies show that if we bring down our top rates and actually go across the board — bring down rates for everyone in America — but also limit deductions and exemptions for people at the high end, and you create an enormous incentive for growth in the economy.”

Veracity check: Sources reviewed Romney’s evidence supplied by the Romney campaign and concluded the “five studies” included Romney campaign advisers and several newspaper editorials. None of the five were independent studies. In fact they concluded that Romney uses the word “studies” generously, for they were not really studies at all.

Claim: According to Romney, ”IPAB board can tell people ultimately what treatments they’re going to receive.”

Veracity Check: According to the non-partisan, non-profit Kaiser Family Foundation: The health care law directs a new national board — with 15 members who are political appointees — to identify Medicare savings. It’s forbidden from submitting “any recommendation to ration health care,” as Section 3403 of the health care law states. It may not raise premiums for Medicare beneficiaries or increase deductibles, coinsurance or co-payments. The IPAB also cannot change who is eligible for Medicare, restrict benefits or make recommendations that would raise revenue.

What it can do is reduce how much the government pays health care providers for services, reduce payments to hospitals with very high rates of re-admissions or recommend innovations that cut wasteful spending. Some argue that because the IPAB can reduce the money a doctor receives, this could lead to an indirect form of rationing.

So the Stew has cleaned up after Mitt – somewhat – and we’re exhausted. The debate is riddled with jaw-dropping “holy shit” moments for those of us who have consistently been reporting on the facts. If you’re wondering why President Obama looked a bit distracted – trust me – we too felt dazed by Mitt’s mendacity. President Obama has our deepest empathy. We have not covered all Mitt’s discrepancies, so feel free to mention any important factoids that we have left out

More at the link but here's the final conclusion -

Consensus is that Mitt Romney won the first debate. That may well be true, if viewers are easily swayed by posturing and aggression. If, however, you were looking for fact and substance, then you might be tempted to give the debate to Obama. Romney seem to triumph simply by being the challenger and standing on the same stage with the incumbent president. Win or lose, however, Mitt does not get a second chance to come into these presidential debates as an underdog; neither does he get a second chance to be an untried opponent. You must admit, though; it takes a certain amount of fortitude to stand and deliver amidst the shitstorm of lies and distortions that spewed forth from the mouth of Willard Mitt Romney.

But made obvious on this forum, there's a lot of so-called values voters who really relish getting into bed with a shitstorm of lies and distortions - any wonder why their typical spew here?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

... except, wisely or not, he chose to be truthful.

He chose to be truthful to who about what? Obama lost congress for being another cheap double talker.

Obama on the campaign trail today -

President Obama told a crowd in Denver on Thursday that he barely recognized the “spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney” at the debate the night before.

“It could not have been Mitt Romney because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the last year promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favor the wealthy,” Obama said. “The fellow on stage last night said he didn’t know anything about that.”

He continued with the riff: “The real Mitt Romney said we don’t need any more teachers in our classrooms … but the fellow on stage last night, he loves teachers, can’t get enough of them. The Mitt Romney we all know invested in companies that were called pioneers of outsourcing jobs to other countries, but the guy onstage last night, he said that he does not even know that there are such laws that encourage outsourcing.”

The speech is part of a broader effort by the campaign to attack Romney for some of his bolder debate claims, like new assurances he’d preserve education spending while cutting the deficit, a pledge to cover people with pre-existing conditions (which the campaign immediately walked back), and a promise not to cut taxes for the rich that is contradicted by independent studies of his proposals.

One of my favorites -

“The man onstage last night does not want to be held accountable for the real Mitt Romney’s decisions and what he has been saying for the last year,” Obama said.

Obama, who came under heavy criticism from supporters for failing to effectively push back against Romney’s attacks in the debate, offered up plenty of spirited comebacks a day later. He mocked Romney in particular for promising trillions of dollars in spending cuts while naming only extremely modest subsidies to PBS as a specific item he’d cut.

But my very very favorite, and as I said what will be the lasting meme from the debate(s) -

“Thank goodness somebody is finally getting tough on Big Bird. It is about time,” Obama said. “We did not know that Big Bird was driving the federal deficit, but that is what we heard last night. How about that? Elmo, too?”

Elmo too?!!!! Romney is so screwed with any parent with kids 6 and under!

I love rope-a-dope. The only think better is coming across the magic pony people who don't have a clue.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Sorry, your magic pony doesn't fly.

Obama is talking about getting rid of the Bush Tax Cuts for only the top 2%. For "small business owners" in the top 2% include hedge fund managers and dudes like Donald Trump who through tax accountants get to claim themselves as "small business" employing very few people while making 10s of millions and in some cases a billion dollars a year. No one is talking about raising your taxes even if you were raking in as much money as your local WalMart or Costco which I very much doubt that you are.

The magic pony you need to take out and shoot is that by giving Donald Trump and hedge fund managers’ small business tax breaks that is going to do something for you, me or the economy. It is beyond stupid to believe that it will. Wake the F up!

Right. Rmoney and the GOPPERS want to give tax breaks to people who report $250,000 or more on their Schedule C as personal income. They claim that if these rich "small business" people have to pay 4% more on this personal income, that they will choose not to hire more people, in order to boost their own personal income to make up for that lost 4%. What a bunch of greedy twits, that they refuse to fork over that extra 4 percent, and then tell people to be more self-reliant and not depend on the government instead of asking them to pay that 4% on their high incomes.

If they fork over that 4%, instead of firing their workers to get it back, it won't hurt them; and by paying it they will be supporting government programs that put money back into the economy, instead of into their fellow rich peoples' money schemes, and thus grow it so even the rich, greedy businessmen themselves will make more money.

Originally Posted by the bouncer

wow.

did you watch that whole thing before you posted it?

the extremes to which folks will go to avoid being thought of as "politically correct."

I thought the muff eating contest part was halarious.

badda-bing, badda-boom

- and unlike the one made of Romney lies, the magic pony people here aren't gonna like it -

President Obama’s top aides didn’t deny on Thursday that Mitt Romney had a strong first debate. But by taunting fact checkers with a vague set of newly centrist claims, they believe the governor has left himself open for a major counteroffensive this week.

Obama senior strategist David Axelrod characterized Romney’s debate strategy as “effective in the short term, vulnerable in the long term.”

“Governor Romney came to give a performance and he gave a good performance and we give him credit for that,” he told reporters in a conference call. “The problem with it was that none of it was rooted in fact.”


He highlighted three areas in particular where the campaign planned to aggressively highlight Romney’s debate claims and press for more specifics: health care for the sick, tax breaks for the rich, and regulations on Wall Street.

Batten down the hatches Team Romney, you have no idea what you have unleashed.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

He chose to be truthful to who about what? Obama lost congress for being another cheap double talker.

Let's just hope Romney now does the same for his fellow Republicans in congress, for doing the same.

Originally Posted by Aramea

You can tell when deficit hawks are serious when they stop talking about cutting PBS and NPR. Together, those two programs are loose change from the Oval Office sofas. Anyone talking cutting PBS/NPR funding and raising defense isn't serious about the deficit at all. When they add a 20% tax cut cherry on top they are officially delusional.

Killing NPR and PBS is payback for slights they've sufferred in the past. I don't know what they are, but they do. PBS Frontline and NPR in general have been dilligent in investigating political chicanery of both parties, but the GOP seems to take it personally.

Choose the slight of your choice.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

He chose to be truthful to who about what? Obama lost congress for being another cheap double talker.

Expand that into something understandable.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Sorry, your magic pony doesn't fly.

Obama is talking about getting rid of the Bush Tax Cuts for only the top 2%. For "small business owners" in the top 2% include hedge fund managers and dudes like Donald Trump who through tax accountants get to claim themselves as "small business" employing very few people while making 10s of millions and in some cases a billion dollars a year. No one is talking about raising your taxes even if you were raking in as much money as your local WalMart or Costco which I very much doubt that you are.

The magic pony you need to take out and shoot is that by giving Donald Trump and hedge fund managers’ small business tax breaks that is going to do something for you, me or the economy. It is beyond stupid to believe that it will. Wake the F up!

I'm not in the top 2% but my capital gains taxes (taxes on small business profit and investment income) will be increasing by 15%. Are you going to stick to the blue magic pony show or are you going to wise the F up!

Originally Posted by playwrite

- and unlike the one made of Romney lies, the magic pony people here aren't gonna like it -



Batten down the hatches Team Romney, you have no idea what you have unleashed.

Yeah Im sure they are quaking in their boots over Axelfrauds spin....

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I'm not in the top 2% but my capital gains taxes (taxes on small business profit and investment income) will be increasing by 15%. Are you going to stick to the blue magic pony show or are you going to wise the F up!

Are you a sub-chapter S corproation, LLC, LLP, or do you operate as a sole proprietor? And what capital gains does a very small (your words) business have? More to the point, if there is a choice, would you prefer more business or lower taxes (they tend to be mutually exclusive right now)?

Originally Posted by The Rani

Ick. Not something I would have posted!

Is it something you've experienced, kicked back and enjoyed?

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I'm not in the top 2% but my capital gains taxes (taxes on small business profit and investment income) will be increasing by 15%. Are you going to stick to the blue magic pony show or are you going to wise the F up!

Capital gains for operating a small business??? There's something fishy about that.

But anyway, I didn't say anything about your taxes going up because you made more money. The issue is will your tax RATE go up. As a businessman, one would think you would know the difference. Maybe you and Weave 'almost attended' the same business school?

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I'm not in the top 2% but my capital gains taxes (taxes on small business profit and investment income) will be increasing by 15%. Are you going to stick to the blue magic pony show or are you going to wise the F up!

Are you paying yourself a dividend or selling the business or something? Most of your personal taxes are from the income you receive from those profits and last I checked it was Republicans who fought to the last minute to let a 2% SECA/FICA expire because they don't care if working people pay taxes as long as the investors get a break.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Are you a sub-chapter S corproation, LLC, LLP, or do you operate as a sole proprietor? And what capital gains does a very small (your words) business have? More to the point, if there is a choice, would you prefer more business or lower taxes (they tend to be mutually exclusive right now)?

Sub-chapter S.... BTW, do you know that you have to have more profits than losses to remain a sub chaptor S. I'd prefer both knowing that the two are mutually exclusive and you not going to experience one without the other.

Deb:

Did you yet receive the PM I sent a few days ago? Thought maybe you were off the board for a few days.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Are you paying yourself a dividend or selling the business or something? Most of your personal taxes are from the income you receive from those profits and last I checked it was Republicans who fought to the last minute to let a 2% SECA/FICA expire because they don't care if working people pay taxes as long as the investors get a break.

I can pay myself more and leave less profit in the business or I can pay myself less and keep more profit in the business. The majority of business aren't owned by liberal DF's who are emotionally/financially attached to liberal programs and their social issues.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not THAT kind of ick.

Cool......

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

Hi Aramea. Welcome to "The Club"!

Prince

PS:Are you having fun yet?

LOL, thanks. I never get it right. Either something is funny or it is not.

Independent is a lonely place, at times, n'est-ce pas?

Originally Posted by The Rani

Ick. Not something I would have posted!

Actually, no I wouldn't think so. My comment was more that you post vids to make your point. I can be quite liberal, but I think that looking for racism under every rock works against the actual goal.

Originally Posted by the bouncer

i caught a live clip of obama from ed schultz's radio show this morning. sounded like he was already counter-punching romney's bullcrap from last night.

that's what all that note-taking was for, perhaps.

feel your opponent out, get a sense of where he's coming from. catch his misstatements.

then move in.

brilliant.

Barack Obama would have been a good prosecutor. He lets the perp think that he is getting away with something by pretending to accept lies at face value with the design of using them against the perp where it counts -- the courtroom.

Mitt Romney is a liar. He swallowed frequently while speaking and he accelerated the cadence of his speech to a robotic delivery when he was telling a whopper.