Originally Posted by herbal tee

LOL


You like Ryan are just not very believeable when you're trying to spin.

I think that Biden showed the puppy the old school tonight.

I'm not "spinning" anything. I'm giving my reaction. The whole thing reminded me of an extended version of Meet the Press, with a couple of Congressmen hashing out government policy. I thought Ryan was a bit weak and came across as a bit nerdy and robotic. He could improve. But far and away, Biden came across very badly. He looked like a an angry old coot.

EDIT - Frank Luntz is doing a focus group on Fox right now, almost all Obama voters from 2008 who are undecided now. Several of the women are condemning Biden for being arrogant and disrespectful.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

I doubt many people are watching the VP debate, and doubt it will have much impact, but Biden is coming across as desperate, overcompensating for Obama's bad debate. The guy always looks like an old, loud-mouthed moron and a phony, but this is worse than usual. Way too angry and aggressive. Not going to help Obama at all. Ryan is winning by simply looking reasonable.

Just aggressive enough. Ryan was ill-prepared. Ryan was good enough to make i look like a real contest.

Tangle with Joe Biden, and lose.

CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

CNN's breakdown of how much time they spent talking about various subjects crystallizes what I think was wrong with Ryan's performance. He focused too much on the budget, and not enough on the economy. Probably predictable considering his job, but that's what was missing. Romney really made the case against Obama on the economy, Ryan didn't do that as well in my opinion.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

is there a link for that?

Originally Posted by Weave

is there a link for that?

I just saw it on CNN, announced by Wolf Blitzer. The poll was registered voters by the way, not likely voters.

Meanwhile there's a new poll out (TBT/Herald/Mason-Dixon) showing Romney leading in FL by 7 points.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

CNN's breakdown of how much time they spent talking about various subjects crystallizes what I think was wrong with Ryan's performance. He focused too much on the budget, and not enough on the economy. Probably predictable considering his job, but that's what was missing. Romney really made the case against Obama on the economy, Ryan didn't do that as well in my opinion.

I suspect the next two debates will be basically draws which is just fine for Romney he has already measured up as Presidential which is the threshold those who are looking for who want tot make a change. It'll be a long time before we see a beating like the one delivered on Obama last week. If that were to happen again in this election and if it did it would end Obama's chances for re-election.

Originally Posted by Weave

I suspect the next two debates will be basically draws which is just fine for Romney he has already measured up as Presidential which is the threshold those who are looking for who want tot make a change. It'll be a long time before we see a beating like the one delivered on Obama last week. If that were to happen again in this election and if it did it would end Obama's chances for re-election.

The next debate will be a "town hall" format, and if Obama goes on the attack the way Biden did, it won't look good. The last one is foreign policy, which will not give Obama a chance to defend his record on the economy. There's also a growing scandal over the handling of the attack in Libya. The one on Tuesday will be important. If Romney just gets a draw, he'll be in good shape. If he wins it clearly again, he could really pull away. What he needs to do is stick to holding Obama accountable for the economy.

A reasonably balanced review .

The vice-presidential debate: An impressive draw | The Economist
http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2012/10/vice-presidential-debate

…"Democrat and Republican partisans are likely to believe that their man won. Democrats, in particular, will have been cheered up by Mr Biden's performance, which was combative and gaffe-free. Those conservative Republicans who see Mr Ryan as a potential future leader will have been delighted to see him stride with such confidence off his usual turf of budgetary policy."...

This debate was a lot more entertaining than the last one, but amounted to pretty much a draw. If I had to pick a winner, I'd say Ryan won the debate. Biden was clearly the aggressor, but Ryan held his own quite well. Biden came across as very condescending. This attitude probably helped strengthen his support among people who were already in support of Obama/Biden, but likely lost him a lot of support among swing voters.

Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.

..........

Like I said, Biden's performance fired up the base and strengthened support among Democrats. If you already lean left, it probably looks to you like he won. But you can't deny that he came across as very condescending. This tactic doesn't work too well among swing voters, and certainly doesn't work at convincing those who lean conservative. Romney did a better job as the aggressor in the last debate. He kept Obama on the defensive, but did it without looking condescending. It probably doesn't make much of difference anyway, since swing voters usually don't watch VP debates.

Originally Posted by Gianthogweed

Like I said, Biden's performance fired up the base and strengthened support among Democrats. If you already lean left, it probably looks to you like he won. But you can't deny that he came across as very condescending. This tactic doesn't work too well among swing voters, and certainly doesn't work at convincing those who lean conservative. Romney did a better job as the aggressor in the last debate. He kept Obama on the defensive, but did it without looking condescending. It probably doesn't make much of difference anyway, since swing voters usually don't watch VP debates.

Beating the shit out a petulant little liar isn't being "rude" and "condescending".

Odin - if all you've got is "he's a liar", you're on pretty shaky ground. They're all liars.

Originally Posted by Odin

Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.

That's what Dems said in 2000 when Al Gore was sighing, smirking and rolling his eyes on split screen. It may play well with left wing partisans but it doesn't among the swing voters.

Ryan remained calm during Biden's buffoonish behavior. What are people discussing at the watercooler today? Biden's antics....

Originally Posted by Weave

That's what Dems said in 2000 when Al Gore was sighing, smirking and rolling his eyes on split screen. It may play well with left wing partisans but it doesn't among the swing voters.

Ryan remained calm during Biden's buffoonish behavior. What are people discussing at the watercooler today? Biden's antics....

You are touching on a common theme I've been seeing on this thread at least since the conventions. People want to be convinced of what they already believe in. Republicans are trumpeting about every poll that leans Republican while calling other polls biased, while the Democrats are no different except in polarity. Democrats see their candidates performance in the polls more positively than the Republicans, while the Republicans see it the other way.

The discussion seems to me little different from the main stream media coverage, shunning issues, delving into polls, the latest sound bytes and emotion.

Which is why I've had so little enthusiasm for joining the exercise.

Originally Posted by Odin

Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.

i agree.

ryan's budget plan doesn't add up, and the social security privatization thing is going to hurt him.

biden was on top of his game.

Originally Posted by Odin

Beating the shit out a petulant little liar isn't being "rude" and "condescending".

exactly.

someone gets assertive with these sociopathic little creeps and the fans of the sociopathic little creeps run off and complain.

loved how ryan admitted he tried to get stimulus money for his district. can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e?

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Originally Posted by wtrg8

The polls have completely disregarded Gary Johnson and Virgil Goode. Virginia is in play for Obama. But according to 538, the polls are swinging wildly towards Romney.

VA is certainly in play, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see Romney win it by 5 points.

I live in Virgil Country, but he's not even on the radar here. The same is true of Johnson ... and Stein, for that matter. Is Virginia likely to go to Romney now? No more so than before. The bulk of Obama's support is in NoVA, populated primarily by high information voters. I don't see a lot of shift in either direction there. The low information voters are already tilted heavily toward Romney, so there isn't a lot of gain to be had. I think VA is still in the Obama column, frankly.

Pick another state.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I'm calling it now. Someone can gloat if it proves to be wrong, but I'm calling it now:

Ryan as an Xer will make the War Baby Biden look like an old Silent who's out of touch and past his expiration date.

~Chas'88

OK, that didn't happen, so now what do you think?

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Originally Posted by The Rani

If they don't watch it, they're both going to make themselves look bad.

Agreed.

~Chas'88

Both of you understand that this is the role o f Veep, don't you?

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

I doubt many people are watching the VP debate, and doubt it will have much impact, but Biden is coming across as desperate, overcompensating for Obama's bad debate. The guy always looks like an old, loud-mouthed moron and a phony, but this is worse than usual. Way too angry and aggressive. Not going to help Obama at all. Ryan is winning by simply looking reasonable.

... but that doesn't apply in the Romney case, because, well, HE'S A REPUBLICAN!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Odin - if all you've got is "he's a liar", you're on pretty shaky ground. They're all liars.

Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are worse-than-average liars in American politics.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

OK, that didn't happen, so now what do you think?

Honestly, I didn't like the substance of what Ryan had to say, and I didn't like the attitude that Biden copped at moments. I liked the spirited debate, but they both lost out on points for me.

~Chas'88