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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 433







Post#10801 at 10-11-2012 11:03 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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10-11-2012, 11:03 PM #10801
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Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
LOL


You like Ryan are just not very believeable when you're trying to spin.

I think that Biden showed the puppy the old school tonight.
I'm not "spinning" anything. I'm giving my reaction. The whole thing reminded me of an extended version of Meet the Press, with a couple of Congressmen hashing out government policy. I thought Ryan was a bit weak and came across as a bit nerdy and robotic. He could improve. But far and away, Biden came across very badly. He looked like a an angry old coot.

EDIT - Frank Luntz is doing a focus group on Fox right now, almost all Obama voters from 2008 who are undecided now. Several of the women are condemning Biden for being arrogant and disrespectful.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-11-2012 at 11:07 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10802 at 10-11-2012 11:08 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
I doubt many people are watching the VP debate, and doubt it will have much impact, but Biden is coming across as desperate, overcompensating for Obama's bad debate. The guy always looks like an old, loud-mouthed moron and a phony, but this is worse than usual. Way too angry and aggressive. Not going to help Obama at all. Ryan is winning by simply looking reasonable.
Just aggressive enough. Ryan was ill-prepared. Ryan was good enough to make i look like a real contest.

Tangle with Joe Biden, and lose.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#10803 at 10-11-2012 11:17 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

CNN's breakdown of how much time they spent talking about various subjects crystallizes what I think was wrong with Ryan's performance. He focused too much on the budget, and not enough on the economy. Probably predictable considering his job, but that's what was missing. Romney really made the case against Obama on the economy, Ryan didn't do that as well in my opinion.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-11-2012 at 11:25 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10804 at 10-11-2012 11:22 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

is there a link for that?







Post#10805 at 10-11-2012 11:24 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
is there a link for that?
I just saw it on CNN, announced by Wolf Blitzer. The poll was registered voters by the way, not likely voters.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-11-2012 at 11:26 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10806 at 10-11-2012 11:41 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Meanwhile there's a new poll out (TBT/Herald/Mason-Dixon) showing Romney leading in FL by 7 points.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10807 at 10-12-2012 12:00 AM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
CNN poll says Ryan won the debate 48-44%. I'm thinking Obama should dump Biden and replace him with Chris Matthews, lol.

CNN's breakdown of how much time they spent talking about various subjects crystallizes what I think was wrong with Ryan's performance. He focused too much on the budget, and not enough on the economy. Probably predictable considering his job, but that's what was missing. Romney really made the case against Obama on the economy, Ryan didn't do that as well in my opinion.
I suspect the next two debates will be basically draws which is just fine for Romney he has already measured up as Presidential which is the threshold those who are looking for who want tot make a change. It'll be a long time before we see a beating like the one delivered on Obama last week. If that were to happen again in this election and if it did it would end Obama's chances for re-election.







Post#10808 at 10-12-2012 12:50 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
I suspect the next two debates will be basically draws which is just fine for Romney he has already measured up as Presidential which is the threshold those who are looking for who want tot make a change. It'll be a long time before we see a beating like the one delivered on Obama last week. If that were to happen again in this election and if it did it would end Obama's chances for re-election.
The next debate will be a "town hall" format, and if Obama goes on the attack the way Biden did, it won't look good. The last one is foreign policy, which will not give Obama a chance to defend his record on the economy. There's also a growing scandal over the handling of the attack in Libya. The one on Tuesday will be important. If Romney just gets a draw, he'll be in good shape. If he wins it clearly again, he could really pull away. What he needs to do is stick to holding Obama accountable for the economy.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10809 at 10-12-2012 07:43 AM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
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A reasonably balanced review .


The vice-presidential debate: An impressive draw | The Economist
http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2012/10/vice-presidential-debate

…"Democrat and Republican partisans are likely to believe that their man won. Democrats, in particular, will have been cheered up by Mr Biden's performance, which was combative and gaffe-free. Those conservative Republicans who see Mr Ryan as a potential future leader will have been delighted to see him stride with such confidence off his usual turf of budgetary policy."...







Post#10810 at 10-12-2012 08:38 AM by Gianthogweed [at joined Apr 2012 #posts 590]
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This debate was a lot more entertaining than the last one, but amounted to pretty much a draw. If I had to pick a winner, I'd say Ryan won the debate. Biden was clearly the aggressor, but Ryan held his own quite well. Biden came across as very condescending. This attitude probably helped strengthen his support among people who were already in support of Obama/Biden, but likely lost him a lot of support among swing voters.
Last edited by Gianthogweed; 10-12-2012 at 08:55 AM.
'79 Xer, INTP







Post#10811 at 10-12-2012 09:08 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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10-12-2012, 09:08 AM #10811
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Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10812 at 10-12-2012 09:23 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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..........

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10813 at 10-12-2012 09:30 AM by Gianthogweed [at joined Apr 2012 #posts 590]
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Like I said, Biden's performance fired up the base and strengthened support among Democrats. If you already lean left, it probably looks to you like he won. But you can't deny that he came across as very condescending. This tactic doesn't work too well among swing voters, and certainly doesn't work at convincing those who lean conservative. Romney did a better job as the aggressor in the last debate. He kept Obama on the defensive, but did it without looking condescending. It probably doesn't make much of difference anyway, since swing voters usually don't watch VP debates.
'79 Xer, INTP







Post#10814 at 10-12-2012 09:40 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Gianthogweed View Post
Like I said, Biden's performance fired up the base and strengthened support among Democrats. If you already lean left, it probably looks to you like he won. But you can't deny that he came across as very condescending. This tactic doesn't work too well among swing voters, and certainly doesn't work at convincing those who lean conservative. Romney did a better job as the aggressor in the last debate. He kept Obama on the defensive, but did it without looking condescending. It probably doesn't make much of difference anyway, since swing voters usually don't watch VP debates.
Beating the shit out a petulant little liar isn't being "rude" and "condescending".
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10815 at 10-12-2012 09:47 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Odin - if all you've got is "he's a liar", you're on pretty shaky ground. They're all liars.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#10816 at 10-12-2012 10:02 AM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.
That's what Dems said in 2000 when Al Gore was sighing, smirking and rolling his eyes on split screen. It may play well with left wing partisans but it doesn't among the swing voters.

Ryan remained calm during Biden's buffoonish behavior. What are people discussing at the watercooler today? Biden's antics....







Post#10817 at 10-12-2012 10:29 AM by B Butler [at joined Nov 2011 #posts 2,329]
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Left Arrow Buffoons

Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
That's what Dems said in 2000 when Al Gore was sighing, smirking and rolling his eyes on split screen. It may play well with left wing partisans but it doesn't among the swing voters.

Ryan remained calm during Biden's buffoonish behavior. What are people discussing at the watercooler today? Biden's antics....
You are touching on a common theme I've been seeing on this thread at least since the conventions. People want to be convinced of what they already believe in. Republicans are trumpeting about every poll that leans Republican while calling other polls biased, while the Democrats are no different except in polarity. Democrats see their candidates performance in the polls more positively than the Republicans, while the Republicans see it the other way.

The discussion seems to me little different from the main stream media coverage, shunning issues, delving into polls, the latest sound bytes and emotion.

Which is why I've had so little enthusiasm for joining the exercise.







Post#10818 at 10-12-2012 11:28 AM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Oh for fuck's sake, people, Biden clearly won the debate, both on style and on facts. Ryan spouted lie after lie and was nervous through the whole debate.
i agree.

ryan's budget plan doesn't add up, and the social security privatization thing is going to hurt him.

biden was on top of his game.







Post#10819 at 10-12-2012 11:33 AM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Beating the shit out a petulant little liar isn't being "rude" and "condescending".
exactly.

someone gets assertive with these sociopathic little creeps and the fans of the sociopathic little creeps run off and complain.

loved how ryan admitted he tried to get stimulus money for his district. can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e?







Post#10820 at 10-12-2012 11:50 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Quote Originally Posted by wtrg8 View Post
The polls have completely disregarded Gary Johnson and Virgil Goode. Virginia is in play for Obama. But according to 538, the polls are swinging wildly towards Romney.
VA is certainly in play, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see Romney win it by 5 points.
I live in Virgil Country, but he's not even on the radar here. The same is true of Johnson ... and Stein, for that matter. Is Virginia likely to go to Romney now? No more so than before. The bulk of Obama's support is in NoVA, populated primarily by high information voters. I don't see a lot of shift in either direction there. The low information voters are already tilted heavily toward Romney, so there isn't a lot of gain to be had. I think VA is still in the Obama column, frankly.

Pick another state.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10821 at 10-12-2012 11:52 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
I'm calling it now. Someone can gloat if it proves to be wrong, but I'm calling it now:

Ryan as an Xer will make the War Baby Biden look like an old Silent who's out of touch and past his expiration date.

~Chas'88
OK, that didn't happen, so now what do you think?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10822 at 10-12-2012 11:54 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
If they don't watch it, they're both going to make themselves look bad.
Agreed.

~Chas'88
Both of you understand that this is the role o f Veep, don't you?
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10823 at 10-12-2012 11:57 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
I doubt many people are watching the VP debate, and doubt it will have much impact, but Biden is coming across as desperate, overcompensating for Obama's bad debate. The guy always looks like an old, loud-mouthed moron and a phony, but this is worse than usual. Way too angry and aggressive. Not going to help Obama at all. Ryan is winning by simply looking reasonable.
... but that doesn't apply in the Romney case, because, well, HE'S A REPUBLICAN!!!!!!!!!!
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10824 at 10-12-2012 12:01 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Odin - if all you've got is "he's a liar", you're on pretty shaky ground. They're all liars.
Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are worse-than-average liars in American politics.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#10825 at 10-12-2012 12:10 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
OK, that didn't happen, so now what do you think?
Honestly, I didn't like the substance of what Ryan had to say, and I didn't like the attitude that Biden copped at moments. I liked the spirited debate, but they both lost out on points for me.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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