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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 437







Post#10901 at 10-16-2012 12:34 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Second, your random draft of representatives is a sophomoric joke, period.
Classical Athens was a sophomoric joke? Their legislature, the Boule, was filled by lot.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10902 at 10-16-2012 12:58 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Classical Athens was a sophomoric joke? Their legislature, the Boule, was filled by lot.
PW has already made it stunningly clear that anything deviating from the box he was inherently virtuous enough to be born into is no more than wild-eyed lunacy. Literally no other options exist besides the one that assures him a cushy responsibility-free existence skimming off whatever the people around him are able to provide.

It's Prophet tunnel-vision taken to a near caricature extreme. But I, for one, appreciate his being here as an archetype example.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#10903 at 10-16-2012 01:06 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
...you risk having a government of political amateurs that are even more easily bamboozled by lobbyists and "experts" then our politicians are now.
True. Although the occasional (or hell, even widespread) bamboozleing of newbies strikes me as a step up from a guaranteed monoculture of the outright corrupt. And who knows, it's entirely likely under a draft system that every once in a while a group of genuinely worthwhile people will get into power. Just think how much time the lobbyists and experts will have to waste, constantly having to get acquainted with and win over new faces -- and just as constantly losing whatever investments they had put into influencing the previous packs of faces. Making lobbying and influence-peddling more expensive strikes me as a positive feature in and of itself.

Setting aside for the moment my objection to a structure of ruling in general, temporary rule by groups of amateurs strikes me as a hell of lot safer than permanent rule by members of an established professional ruling class. At least, safer from the standpoint of the people, if perhaps not so much from the standpoint of the elites.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc tre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce tre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#10904 at 10-16-2012 01:22 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Just think how much time the lobbyists and experts will have to waste, constantly having to get acquainted with and win over new faces -- and just as constantly losing whatever investments they had put into influencing the previous packs of faces. Making lobbying and influence-peddling more expensive strikes me as a positive feature in and of itself.
That is a very good point.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10905 at 10-16-2012 01:25 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Classical Athens was a sophomoric joke? Their legislature, the Boule, was filled by lot.
What was the total population of Classical Athens. What was the relative population of those considered eligible for representation to either the population of women or to the slave population? What was their level of technology development particularly in regard to shared infomation and communications? What was the extend and nature of their global trade and geopolitics?

The comparison to what we face today is also a sophmoric joke, period.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10906 at 10-16-2012 01:27 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Romney's favorability rating is now higher than Obama's. If Obama is smart, he won't try to "go Biden" tonight. It'll backfire.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10907 at 10-16-2012 01:30 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
PW has already made it stunningly clear that anything deviating from the box he was inherently virtuous enough to be born into is no more than wild-eyed lunacy. Literally no other options exist besides the one that assures him a cushy responsibility-free existence skimming off whatever the people around him are able to provide.

It's Prophet tunnel-vision taken to a near caricature extreme. But I, for one, appreciate his being here as an archetype example.
Yes, "the box" being the actual world we live in rather than some magic pony land that perhaps warlord Somali got the closest to.

As far as the "skimming," I recognize it, appreciate it, and insist upon it for myself and my fellow citizens. You don't, and that's what makes you a hypocrite if not an obnoxious self-centered adolescent.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10908 at 10-16-2012 01:31 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Classical Athens was a sophomoric joke? Their legislature, the Boule, was filled by lot.
... but only by those deemed eligible. I'm not sure either of us woud qualify for the top jobs ... or even the middling ones.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10909 at 10-16-2012 01:32 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Romney's favorability rating is now higher than Obama's. If Obama is smart, he won't try to "go Biden" tonight. It'll backfire.
Getting a little nervous, JPT?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10910 at 10-16-2012 01:39 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Getting a little nervous, JPT?
FWIW, I heard an interview with a 20-something liberal-minded woman who voted Obam in 2008 and is voting Romney this time. The reason: Obama represents her values but he's weak.

That's not trivial, nor easily reversed. I have no idea how many more like her are out there.

This is far from over.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10911 at 10-16-2012 01:47 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
What was the total population of Classical Athens. What was the relative population of those considered eligible for representation to either the population of women or to the slave population? What was their level of technology development particularly in regard to shared infomation and communications? What was the extend and nature of their global trade and geopolitics?

The comparison to what we face today is also a sophmoric joke, period.
You could make the same contrast between the USA of 2012 and the USA of 1789.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#10912 at 10-16-2012 02:22 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
FWIW, I heard an interview with a 20-something liberal-minded woman who voted Obam in 2008 and is voting Romney this time. The reason: Obama represents her values but he's weak.

That's not trivial, nor easily reversed. I have no idea how many more like her are out there.

This is far from over.
No, it's not over.

The dynamics, however, are bigger than this election. 99% of people believe that federal deficits are a bad thing - that obviously includes a lot of Democrats.

I've been torn about an Obama win; at best we muddle through, but the underlying issue doesn't really get resolve.

With a Romney win - it's a twofer. One, he and the GOP get the milstone and 40 years in the desert ala Hoover. Two, both my friends on the Libertarian Right and the Far Left learn that there IS a difference - and finally STFU over that idiocy.

Oh, and maybe we get to understand what the real issue is and work together to actually resolve it. But that is pretty unlikely and it would make it 'threefer' which nobody uses.
Last edited by playwrite; 10-16-2012 at 02:28 PM.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10913 at 10-16-2012 02:27 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
You could make the same contrast between the USA of 2012 and the USA of 1789.
And I would, although with a little detail, I would move it up to college level discourse. Maybe not at the sophmore level but at least at the level where Clarence Thomas operates.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10914 at 10-16-2012 02:53 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
And I would, although with a little detail, I would move it up to college level discourse. Maybe not at the sophmore level but at least at the level where Clarence Thomas operates.
The institutions are the box. They set the boundaries for policy and economy just as much as forts and borders set the bounds of human travel, or transportation infrastructure sets the limits of trade.

But crisis solutions aren't about squeezing a little extra efficiency from existing institutions and infrastructure. They're about changing institutions, but the only party with any motivation to do so is the Republicans. No one even wants to admit it but Bush had his way with institution building while the nation was distracted by panic following 9-11, and he focused his efforts almost exclusively on military and espionage. Much of that espionage is pointed internally, and since people with power tend to dislike giving it up, they will almost certainly use these new institutions to make sure their crisis solution is the one that lasts.

Now, before you go putting words in anyone's mouth and talking about tinfoil hat wearing bigfoot aliens, I should probably explain who "they" are.

Here are the top ten from the appendix, note that their "network control" was about ten times stronger than their wealth would indicate. In other words, economic and political power is concentrated even more densely than wealth is.


BARCLAYS PLC; CAPITAL GROUP COMPANIES INC; FMR CORP
AXA FR; STATE STREET CORPORATION; JPMORGAN CHASE & CO.; LEGAL & GENERAL GROUP PLC; VANGUARD GROUP, INC.; UBS AG CH; MERRILL LYNCH & CO.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#10915 at 10-16-2012 02:55 PM by Lady Vagina [at California joined Jul 2011 #posts 131]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
True. Although the occasional (or hell, even widespread) bamboozleing of newbies strikes me as a step up from a guaranteed monoculture of the outright corrupt. And who knows, it's entirely likely under a draft system that every once in a while a group of genuinely worthwhile people will get into power. Just think how much time the lobbyists and experts will have to waste, constantly having to get acquainted with and win over new faces -- and just as constantly losing whatever investments they had put into influencing the previous packs of faces. Making lobbying and influence-peddling more expensive strikes me as a positive feature in and of itself.

Setting aside for the moment my objection to a structure of ruling in general, temporary rule by groups of amateurs strikes me as a hell of lot safer than permanent rule by members of an established professional ruling class. At least, safer from the standpoint of the people, if perhaps not so much from the standpoint of the elites.
Make lobbying a waste of time? I like it.







Post#10916 at 10-16-2012 10:47 PM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
So, the 2nd 2012 Presidential Debate just ended. What a waste of 90 minutes, IMO. I don't necessarily blame the candidates(although they both are partly to blame), because the questions and the whole entire format was just "off".

Prince

PS: Oh, well. Hopefully the various cable-news "spin-machines" will be more entertaining.
couldn't disagree more. romney was finally called out by the prez for his lies. it was awesome.







Post#10917 at 10-16-2012 10:54 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by the bouncer View Post
couldn't disagree more. romney was finally called out by the prez for his lies. it was awesome.
Thanks for the laugh - I needed that after a rough day.

j.p.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#10918 at 10-16-2012 10:56 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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David Brooks gave the edge to Obama this time. I don't think it was a blowout however.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#10919 at 10-16-2012 11:02 PM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
Thanks for the laugh - I needed that after a rough day.

j.p.
it was a great takedown on the libya thing, wasn't it?

btw, why the tacky sig?







Post#10920 at 10-16-2012 11:08 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by the bouncer View Post
it was a great takedown on the libya thing, wasn't it?

btw, why the tacky sig?
Oh, you mean the whole thing of Obama and his staff blaming the Libyan thing on a youtube video?

The tacky sig - i.e. calling liberals out on their bullshit? Because it's honest. I didn't put words into someone's mouth, it was what someone said - a terrorist being exonerated for being a terrorist because he's an Obama supporter. I like to post it as a signature as a reminder of blatant political hypocrisy. Bill Ayers no "longer" being a terrorist while working with Obama? Yeah, that's like saying Osama Bin Laden said "sorry" about the whole 9/11 thing and repented by supporting a political figure.

j.p.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#10921 at 10-16-2012 11:13 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Post#10922 at 10-16-2012 11:15 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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AHH YES, the president showed up tonight.

I just hope that all of the undecideds who thought they saw superman in Rmoney 2 weeks ago tuned in tonight.

What goes up.


Ground zero baby!!!!







Post#10923 at 10-16-2012 11:36 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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About gas prices, since they were mentioned in this debate.

The last time I remember gas prices being low was 2004/2005 around the time I started to learn how to drive. It was $1.26 on average, $1.19 was the lowest I saw it as a driver. When the 2008 election was coming? It was more like $3.89. And then it suddenly dropped down to $2.20 or so immediately after the election. That should tell you about what the gas companies always try to do.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#10924 at 10-16-2012 11:44 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Just saw a post-debate focus group on Fox full of undecided voters in Nevada, most of whom voted for Obama in 2008. They overwhelmingly were saying they're switching to Romney. The reaction was much stronger than the first debate. It was like, "yep that's it, we're through with this, we're voting for Romney".

Obama was certainly more aggressive, not quite as bad as Biden, but all he did was attack Romney. He once again could not defend his record, and could not explain how the next four years will be any different. Romney let Obama get under his skin and drag him down into the weeds a little bit early on, but as it went on he successfully brought it back, continually, to Obama's record on the economy.

The CNN post debate poll said "Obama won" 46%, "Romney won" 39%. Margin of error +/-4-5. In other words, a tie. Compared to the first debate, which was Romney 67-25.

Long story short, Obama's base was at least satisfied this time, compared to last time when many of them said he lost. But it was only Democrats who liked his performance tonight. Firing up his base a little may help him, but he did not make up ground among undecideds and independents. I'm not prepared to call it over yet, but the long faces on CNN as they try to spin it for Obama say a lot.

Regardless of ideology, regardless of the "culture wars" or anything else, you can't re-elect Obama with the economy the way it is. For people who are not ideologues and partisans, I think that's going to be the overwhelming verdict.

EDIT- Anderson Cooper just said, and I quote: "I need a drink".
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#10925 at 10-16-2012 11:51 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I had to turn it off, for the same reason that I turned off the VP debate.
The fact that people get so worked up about supporting/opposing either of these guys blows my mind.
Here were the most extreme comments on my facebook page of friends:

Gary Johnson entered office with a economic deficit and left with a surplus.

I don't remember gas being $1.86 in over 10 years. Where was Mitt buying his gas? same place he was paying his taxes.

I really wish they would break out into song and make this debate a musical. Then at least the rhetoric would be bearable.

YOU HAVE MORE THAN TWO CHOICES. Just a friendly reminder.

i'll create an economy so strong, that even those female creatures will be hired!

This undecided voter is a Bush blamer? I smell a fix.

I'm not watching the debate because, as my grandmother always says, "a politician is a politician is a politician."

He's seen job growth? What planet is he from?

Didn't Obama promise that no Federal funds would be used for Planned Parenthood? That was yesterday, wait for a new story tomorrow!

Binders full of women. And this already exists. Thanks, Mittens.

If Mitt Romney wins this election, I'm moving to Canada.

everything will change when i am president.

Romney is wrong on manufacturing. US the largest manufacturing country. <- Old Man Tea Party commentor

If I've learned one thing about politics from Facebook it's that the real issue at hand is that everyone in this country is insane.



I agree with the last one, we are insane.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
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