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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 440







Post#10976 at 10-17-2012 04:25 PM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I don't think that having more faith in The People than in politicians is cynical.
Seen at least a few fb comments by people I went to HS with saying the same thing.
are corporations people, in your opinion?







Post#10977 at 10-17-2012 05:45 PM by the bouncer [at joined Aug 2002 #posts 220]
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by the way, this burns my bacon, so let's get it straight.

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
On a related note:

I will say that I found it refreshing that Sec. Clinton finally took reponsibility for the embassy security issue at Benghazi. I do wonder why it took so long, though. There's obviously some sort of disconnect occuring between her and the Administration. Could be that she was waiting for the President to make a decision and finally just did so on her own. Who knows? Regardless, like I said before to you, I don't agree with her political POV, but I do like her style. She's definitely competent, IMO(unlike most political-animals).


Prince
the site in benghazi was a consulate, not an embassy. romney got it wrong last nite (shocker, i know) -- but a prince ought to know the difference.







Post#10978 at 10-17-2012 05:53 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Obama is not getting the job done. He spends all his time blathering out his ideological dogma in speeches, "I hate rich people, blah, blah, blah", but the economy sucks and he's failed to do anything about it.
Which contradicts his stated praise of economic activity (like energy production) that the super-rich organize and manage.

The economy 'sucks'... well, not as much as it did four years ago... but this time it does not depend upon a speculative boom or wars for profit. Republicans in Congress dedicated to having President Obama for only one term have done everything possible to ensure that the only possible government activity is to sell this country out to special interests and turn back about every liberal reform of America since at least the Great Depression except perhaps for the anti-discrimination measures.

I don't give a damn about Ferris Bueller. You could do better with Candide, though. After I read that I could never be a conservative.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 10-17-2012 at 09:26 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#10979 at 10-17-2012 08:23 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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I would take the Greens more seriously if they focused on building up a base of support in local governments rather than acting as spoilers in national races they have no hope of winning.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#10980 at 10-17-2012 09:35 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Yeah, but only after Sec. Clinton shamed him into doing so, IMO. That's not good enough for me. Maybe it's generally a Boomer/Joneser-thing or something. Anthony Weiner(1964) was a Joneser. IME, they don't much like to be proven incorrect. I pray that Gen-X will be willing to fess-up when appropriate, but it's probably just a symptom of being a DC-denizen. Either way, I'm not hopeful that this type of after-the-fact "responsibility-taking" will change.

Bottom Line for me:
Sec. Clinton>President Obama


Prince
Well, not good enough for you; OK. Seems I've heard this kind of thing from you before. But I think Romney's charge of covering up that it was a terrorist attack and not a demonstration, is silly and pointless. Why would they do that?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10981 at 10-17-2012 09:39 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Eric, I don't really care what you think/say.
I've expressed my opinion, and I know that other people my age share it.
I'm not interested in having an argument about it.
And your attitude is a serious problem in this country. It doesn't matter if you ignore me; it doesn't change the problem. We can't have a decent government if we think that it doesn't matter for whom we vote, or that politicians can't improve the country. Government works; cynicism does not work.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10982 at 10-17-2012 09:40 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Rani, when Eric starts pontificating ad nauseum, just do what I do and....



Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........ ...................


Prince

PS:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep, that's what the people are doing too much. Sleeping. It's long past time for people to wake up and throw the idiots out of office. Again, when will YOU wake up, Prince?

same-o same-o, so same-o!
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-17-2012 at 10:22 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10983 at 10-17-2012 09:44 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Are Unions(or any other special interest group, for that matter)?

Prince
No one claims Unions are people. Romney and other business apologists claim that corporations are people.

Corporations are made up of people, but a corporation is not a person. The people need more rights against the corporations who are abusing the people.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10984 at 10-17-2012 10:21 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10985 at 10-17-2012 10:25 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Oh, was that little cutie a Sheltie?

Prince

PS:
[Note: Good idea in saving the pic; Knowing Eric, you're gonna need it! Ha!]
Nah, the cats are cuter.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10986 at 10-17-2012 10:31 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by the bouncer View Post
are corporations people, in your opinion?
Are people directly involved with/in corporations?







Post#10987 at 10-17-2012 10:42 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Yep, that's what the people are doing too much. Sleeping. It's long past time for people to wake up and throw the idiots out of office. Again, when will YOU wake up, Prince?

same-o same-o, so same-o!
Are you going to bail on Nancy P. anytime soon? Hahahaha. You should wake up and throw that idiot out of office.







Post#10988 at 10-17-2012 11:02 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
Are you going to bail on Nancy P. anytime soon? Hahahaha. You should wake up and throw that idiot out of office.
No, I'm awake; that's why I like Nancy. I was just thinking about that today. She needs obviously to be put back in office as Speaker. She got a lot done for us in 2009, although the other politicians in the Senate did not. What is frustrating is that Americans only put in office a progressive government that can actually accomplish something for one year out of every 16. It is really a question of what kind of a country we are. One year out of 16 is stagnant and decaying. I like where I live near the northern CA coast. Other than that, I'm not feeling too good about our country these days. Americans need to wake up and move on, not stay stuck in reverse gear. Why do you prefer that kind of country, Mr. Classic Xer Exile Kia 67?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10989 at 10-17-2012 11:17 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
It's somewhat complicated(at least as far as my attempting to describe the dynamic). I'll give it a try.

I generally agree with Indy(Johnny-Mac), but I might not go as far as the Asset-Bubble-thingy. Price Stabilization involves the Fed guarding against downward Price Spirals. Traders/Investors/Fund Managers get cheap-$$$ from the Big Banks(who I believe are still borrowing from the Fed at next to nothing). They bid Prices up. Also, the artificially low Bond Rates make riskier Assets(such as Crude) more attractive so, even more capital moves in those riskier directions.

Don't get me wrong here, ML. I may not be a fan of these Fed Policies(to the degree that they're undertaken), but I "get it"(ie: I do understand the fear of the opposite occuring).

So, the way I would describe the environment is that the Price of Crude is at an artificially higher Price Level than it would be given no QE2/QE3/possibility of further QEs, and artificially low Bond Rates(to name some of the variables involved). It's only a SWAG on my part, but I'd put the "fair value" of Crude without that Fed-stuff at about $60-65, currently. Normal Supply/Demand-dynamics would all still be in-play; Just at a lower Price Level.

Does that clear things up a bit?


Sincerely,

Prince

Edit: ML, I left-out QE1 because I was actually a proponent of that Fed undertaking in the Spring of 2009. I had no idea these types of Fed Monetary Policies would continue to this extent i/r/t Size and Duration.
Let's really clear this up.

Just know, the barrier to clearing this up has little to do with intellectual capacity, it's about emotional capacity. Most people, and entire economic schools, are wedded to monetary myths and basically their brains' shutdown when confronted with reality.

First thing you have to do is put aside the myth of "fractional reserve lending" by banks, i.e. bank lending is constraint by how much bank reserves they have and what proportion of those reserves they are allowed to lend out. BANK LENDING IS NOT CONSTRAINED BY THEIR RESERVES. The only thing that constrains bank lending is finding a WILLING and CREDIBLE borrower, period. I've been over this over and over again on this forum. At this point, you either get this or your hopeless.

If bank lending is not constrained by reserves, why would one ever believe that the FED stuffing the banks with reserves is going to increase their lending? And without the lending, how in the world does the added bank reserves get into the economy???

What the QEs do is exchange one govt security (bank reserves, which are keystrokes to the banks accounts on the FED's spreadsheet) for a different govt security (govt bonds with QE 1 and 2 and agency (Fannie/Freddie) mortgage-backed securities with QE3). The govt interest paid on bank reserves is 0.25% today; on the govt bonds taken under QE 1 and 2, the banks were getting 0.2 to 0.75% because the duration of the bonds were 6 months up to 5 years. The banks, under QE 1 and 2, got less interest payments than what they had before. That would be deflationary except that the differential in interest rates wasn't that much, but much more importantly, bank lending, again, isn't constrained by their reserves so why would it matter if they were adding a tiny bit less to their reserves with the lower interest rates paid by the govt???

Now QE3 MIGHT be different because it is about the FED swapping bank reserves to get the banks' longer-term MBS which do have higher interest rates - those that are older might be paying interest of 4-5%; newer MBS more likely 3-4%.That may force the banks into slightly more risky lending. However, do you really believe that "slightly more risky lending" includes lending to speculate in gold, oil, commodities, stocks??? Maybe 5 or 8 years ago, but do you really think that's the case today???

I've got to go, but I'll be back to finish this up. Hopefully, you can see that QEs directly injecting dollars into the economy, let alone causing inflation, is utter bullshit. On the other hand, stocks are up, gold is up, oil is up, etc., etc. Ponder that, now knowing that QE 1 and 2 didn't put any money into the economy and it is only slightly more likely that QE will (you know it just got started, right?), and see if you can get past the horseshit brainwashing of the last 30 some years to figure it out.

In the words of the Terminator - "I'll be back."
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#10990 at 10-17-2012 11:58 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Well, on this questionnaire, for me, Barack Obama with 91% beat out Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson by a few points, while Romney was in last place behind Virgil Goode, with Gary Johnson scoring low but in the middle. I guess it depends on the questions and scoring! It seems that my support of Obamacare put Obama ahead of the other two left candidates, in their estimation.

http://votesmart.org/voteeasy/

This one is better; lots of questions:

http://2012election.procon.org/view....ourceID=004491

I had to write down my answers. On this one you can skip questions (leave them "neutral" or "don't know"), and there is no indicator for how important they are to you.

Stein agreed with me 36/38 95% (again the only two questions I disagreed with her on were about Obamacare; I'm sure she would only agree to a single-payer law, which I prefer also)
Obama 41/49 84%
Johnson 26/44 59%
Goode 13/45 29%
Romney 5/46 11%

So on this one too Obama gets a B, not an F; he got an A on the one above.
Romney, despite his supposed moderation, is almost as bad for me as GW Bush was on all these tests, assuming they can really pin him down as they claim. The Republican candidate is again more right-wing than the right-wing 3rd party candidate, from my point of view.

Here's another nice one. Fun!
http://www.isidewith.com/
http://www.isidewith.com/results/164594783
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-18-2012 at 01:28 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10991 at 10-18-2012 12:03 AM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
No, I'm awake; that's why I like Nancy. I was just thinking about that today. She needs obviously to be put back in office as Speaker. She got a lot done for us in 2009, although the other politicians in the Senate did not. What is frustrating is that Americans only put in office a progressive government that can actually accomplish something for one year out of every 16. It is really a question of what kind of a country we are. One year out of 16 is stagnant and decaying. I like where I live near the northern CA coast. Other than that, I'm not feeling too good about our country these days. Americans need to wake up and move on, not stay stuck in reverse gear. Why do you prefer that kind of country, Mr. Classic Xer Exile Kia 67?
I don't see that kind of country. I see the kind of country that is for the most part independent and forward geared.







Post#10992 at 10-18-2012 12:13 AM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
No one claims Unions are people. Romney and other business apologists claim that corporations are people.

Corporations are made up of people, but a corporation is not a person. The people need more rights against the corporations who are abusing the people.
I automatically associate Unions/corporations with people.







Post#10993 at 10-18-2012 12:30 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
I don't see that kind of country. I see the kind of country that is for the most part independent and forward geared.
"Rugged individualism" is not forward, but going backward two or three centuries.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10994 at 10-18-2012 12:34 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Lastly, I'm really not interested in having this discussion other than to come to some sort of understanding on why the Price of Crude(and thus the Price of RBOB) is where it is currently OUTSIDE of normal Supply/Demand variables.
It has a lot to do with the international traders, who set the price based on their speculation of what supply and demand might be in the future ("futures"); and if they bid the price up high enough, then they can "buy low and sell high" and thus make a profit by selling at the right moment. Reformulated gas is more expensive in CA.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-18-2012 at 12:37 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10995 at 10-18-2012 12:55 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Oh brother! Here we go again! *facepalm*!

Prince

PS: You know what? Sure Eric, that's it. You've got it. It's the "Speculators"! Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Oh, but wait. What about the Big Oil companies? I've got it! It's the "Speculators" AND "Big Oil"!
I feel so much more educated know.
You should. I was being so fact-based. But you have a point mentioning Big Oil. They certainly do extremely well under this trading system. It works well for them, because the price is always so much higher than it needs to be based on real costs. And they get subsidies too from your Republican friends! Another fact is that oil is getting more and more expensive as it gets harder and harder to find and drill for, despite some temporary windfalls like in North Dakota. So costs do come into the equation.

I don't know why you insist on answering facts with snark. Why answer me at all then? I don't get that one. Are you really that dense? Or smug? Or trivial? Somehow I think there is a cooler cat lurking under this behavior. If you post snark, expect a reply. If you don't want discussion, don't post.

It is really destructive for any voter to go on supporting Big Oil and Coal and their Republican representatives and enablers, when the alternatives are available and create more jobs than are lost in the oh-so polluting and climate-destroying coal mines and oil fields. I don't know how anything could be more clear. Do you?

Boy, 10/11% agreement with me. On three tests. With one of their most "moderate" candidates. You really can't sugarcoat it. They are really off the deep end, if you ask me. I know I know, you didn't ask me. I know already.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10996 at 10-18-2012 01:43 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Eric, are you seriously expecting me to believe that you're speaking from a position of experience and understanding in the matter?
Yes certainly, although I'm not an expert. It's a matter of how you define your terms I guess.

You're not even having a discussion with me, Eric. You could just as well could be going "blah, blah, blah" to the universe.
You're the one not engaging.

PS: Cute, aren't they?
Yes
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#10997 at 10-18-2012 03:35 AM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
"Rugged individualism" is not forward, but going backward two or three centuries.
You definately have a leftwing mentality. Were you born with it?







Post#10998 at 10-18-2012 04:28 AM by Galen [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 1,017]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
The sexual abuse from strangers that occured with many of my Gen-X peers during the 1970s isn't discussed(not even on this MB). Of course, it could be just me(not generational in nature).
Actually this sort of thing is dreadfully common among Generation X and it wasn't always from strangers. The majority of Xers of about our vintage had truly fucked up childhoods due to one cause or another. Come to think of it there is only one of my peers that had what most people would consider a good childhood.
If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.
- Ludwig von Mises

Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
- Lazarus Long







Post#10999 at 10-18-2012 10:08 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
LMAO, Obama's body language is priceless!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11000 at 10-18-2012 11:34 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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The irony is funny:

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
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