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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 443







Post#11051 at 10-19-2012 08:37 AM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Same here, Aramea, but it's the opposite for me. My state will go blue no matter what I do. *sigh*

Prince

PS: Victim of Circumstances!
Great song, Prince !!! It is nice to hear something different once in awhile ...

As Eric says in a later post, it gives me an opportunity to explore 3rd parties. I almost voted Bob Barr in 2008, but he mounted a truly disappointing campaign. The Libertarian Party had some interesting ideas in the mid-00's if you didn't like the neo-con agenda. I will never understand why people automatically associate the LP with conservatives. They have appeal to liberals, too.







Post#11052 at 10-19-2012 08:45 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Great song, Prince !!! It is nice to hear something different once in awhile ...

As Eric says in a later post, it gives me an opportunity to explore 3rd parties. I almost voted Bob Barr in 2008, but he mounted a truly disappointing campaign. The Libertarian Party had some interesting ideas in the mid-00's if you didn't like the neo-con agenda. I will never understand why people automatically associate the LP with conservatives. They have appeal to liberals, too.
IMO The Libertarian party are actually Right-Libertarians, who are, to quote Sci-Fi author Kim Stanley Robinson, Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11053 at 10-19-2012 09:03 AM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
IMO The Libertarian party are actually Right-Libertarians, who are, to quote Sci-Fi author Kim Stanley Robinson, Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.

It has been awhile since I really had a good look at them. Perhaps they have changed, but I don't remember them advocating near anarchy. I just remember finally deciding that their desire for a gold standard was wishful thinking.







Post#11054 at 10-19-2012 10:29 AM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
It's not like this is something I made up out of the blue. This is a good primer from an econ professor at Harvard.



Of course, this is one reason why financial markets are increasingly overshadowing more traditional supply/demand assumptions.

While global growth in supply and production is fairly stable in the long run, commodities are prone to price shocks and overshooting the equilibrium in the short run. Since finance dominates the calculation, small changes to monetary policy can have large effects on the nominal price of commodities.

Further, I don't think it's a stretch to say that higher commodity prices is bad news for a nation that imports so many commodities like oil that are essential to all aspects of our productivity.

Macro-economics often seems counter-intuitive to people who like simple a is good b is bad relationships. Sometimes debt is good, up is down, etc.. etc.. In this case, low interest rates are supposed to stimulate economic activity, but they're hindering it in the absence of fiscal policy supporting wages.
You know, we may not be that far apart.

First, I think we both see monetary policy being a very poor substitute for fiscal policy.

I generally see present monetary policy as a "nothing burger" of financial asset swaps that never get into the actual economy; you see it as harmful because it lowers interest rates and that causes commodity prices to rise. I think this difference is I see no transmission mechanism whereas you see the empirical data showing correlation. What you see is market behavior in reaction to FED moves; I see it as shifts in portfolio preference at best and hysteria at worse. What that boils down to is duration and magnitude of market behavioral responses.

So I believe that yes, the FED actions can and do trigger gyrations in commodity market prices particularly when it acts as an amplifier of organic trends in supply/demand (e.g. China) or other hysteria (e.g. Middle East unrest); I think we're pretty close on that. However, where we differ is I believe it eventually returns to fundamentals including generalized inflation (which is necessary in a healthy growing economy) and doesn’t inflict much damage at the margin where it is responsible for the price change. Example – do people really believe that the price of sanctions on Iran will only be bared by the Iranians??? And if not, what does that have to do with Ben Bernanke?

My key point is the FED is willing to take this risk (you see it as a risk of higher, more permanent damage; I, and I believe the FED, see it as a risk of lower, transitory harm) in order to keep debt servicing as a percent of income as cheap as it possibility can in order to help bring down the still unprecedented levels of household debt.

With what the FED is doing, I see the bigger risk than commodity bubbles is the possibility of starting another household debt binge that is unsustainable with current wage growth. The farther we get from the lesson of the 2008, the more that risk grows. I think it is unlikely unless we get another era of stupidity of the government letting the financial sector run amok again. You know, like if we had some dude from the financial sector elected President, but what's the chances of that??? Oh wait. Oh shit!

All in all, I would much prefer Ron Paul's (!) suggestion that the FED burn its $1.7 trillion and growing in bond holdings that counts as part of the national debt. Paul sees this as bankruptcy, but once it happens and we get over that stupidity (much like we got over the S&P's downgrade of US debt), maybe we'll also firgure out we need to burn those Social Security Trust bonds and all other such govt trusts where the govt owes itself and counts as part of the US debt. Gee, we just cut the federal debt $5-6 trillion. Maybe then we could put aside all this monetary policy (and, more importantly, t-bagger federal debt stupidity) and start talking about some fiscal policy that would actually get the economy growing robustly. Nay, that would be too easy.

http://www.angrybearblog.com/2012/10...all-their.html

Should Central Banks Burn All Their Government Bonds?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


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If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11055 at 10-19-2012 10:57 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
Some people want to keep liberals from knowing that.

If you're mainly concerned about drug legalization, civil liberties and non-interventionism abroad, you could switch from (D) to (L). If you're a big believer in the welfare state, the Libertarian Party is your worst enemy.

The "political compass" that's been on the internet for a long time is not a good concept, because it separates right/left and libertarian/authoritarian into economic issues and social issues. A better description would be right/left based on specific issue positions, and libertarian/authoritarian based on whether or not you want to impose those positions on others through government. The Democratic Party is for people who love government, worship government, and believe in government. As such, the Libertarians are much closer to the Republicans, even though the Republicans have their share of people who are very comfortable with government power, particularly when it comes to foreign policy.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11056 at 10-19-2012 11:42 AM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Romney is clearly moving ahead in VA. Public polls are one thing, but the way you really know what's happening is by watching the actions of the candidates. Obama had been regularly coming to VA to campaign. In the past couple of weeks he's disappeared, and Romney and Ryan have been here constantly. Obama's campaign appears to have conceded the state.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11057 at 10-19-2012 12:17 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
Romney is clearly moving ahead in VA. Public polls are one thing, but the way you really know what's happening is by watching the actions of the candidates. Obama had been regularly coming to VA to campaign. In the past couple of weeks he's disappeared, and Romney and Ryan have been here constantly. Obama's campaign appears to have conceded the state.
Except that Obama's speaking in Fairfax, Virginia today.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#11058 at 10-19-2012 12:20 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
If you're mainly concerned about drug legalization, civil liberties and non-interventionism abroad, you could switch from (D) to (L). If you're a big believer in the welfare state, the Libertarian Party is your worst enemy.
It's not just the "welfare state" (which in my mind, also includes Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance). It's regulation of business. If you think that the environment is important, you won't like the libertarian platform.

Basically, libertarians support small government in all dimensions -- economic, social, and military.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#11059 at 10-19-2012 12:33 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Except that Obama's speaking in Fairfax, Virginia today.
There are reports that the Obama campaign is more or less abandoning FL, NC, VA and CO. Like this one: Firewall in Ruins?

The three most recent state polls in VA indicate an expanding Romney lead.

Here's the RCP Electoral College map with no toss-ups:

No Toss Up States

With toss-ups, the electoral count is Romney +5. Without them, it's Obama +24, but that number was +50 a few days ago. Romney has a few paths to victory now, but the clearest and most obvious is OH, once again as it has been in past elections. If Romney's national lead continues to grow, and if the assumptions about turnout in most polls are wrong in the Republicans' favor, he will blast though OH easily and gain several other states was well.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-19-2012 at 01:05 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11060 at 10-19-2012 01:24 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
There are reports that the Obama campaign is more or less abandoning FL, NC, VA and CO. Like this one: Firewall in Ruins?

The three most recent state polls in VA indicate an expanding Romney lead.

Here's the RCP Electoral College map with no toss-ups:

No Toss Up States

With toss-ups, the electoral count is Romney +5. Without them, it's Obama +24, but that number was +50 a few days ago. Romney has a few paths to victory now, but the clearest and most obvious is OH, once again as it has been in past elections. If Romney's national lead continues to grow, and if the assumptions about turnout in most polls are wrong in the Republicans' favor, he will blast though OH easily and gain several other states was well.
Well, we'll see what the outlier Gallup poll says today, but so far the Romney national lead is down today, thanks to 2 other polls.

EDIT: Romney's lead is reduced to +6 today in Gallup, so the RCP national Romney lead is now down to 01%. Oops, IBD just came in; flash, Obama is now leading +01%.

Rasmussen put VA in the Romney column today, in the no toss-up map, as it did earlier with NC. That's why it went down from +50 to +24. Rasmussen favors Republicans. Even so, their national poll is tied today. I think "likely voter" polls account for the difference in turnout; plus Obama has a better ground game. When Michigan shifts back into the leaning Obama column, he will regain the lead in the map with toss-ups. Soon Wisconsin will shift back too, and so will PA. Edit: NH shifted to +1 Obama, so the no toss-up Obama lead is down to +16.

Who will be right, me or JPTee? I pray for me, and we will see!

Huffington Post seems to have good coverage of the election, including House races
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...id=maing-grid7

Forecast:

I think if Obama and Romney are tied nationally, then Obama will win by as much as +2 in Ohio, Iowa and Colorado and thus win the election. He will win the other swing states by +3 to +5, lose Florida by 1 or 2 points and NC by 4 or 5. The Senate will remain marginally Democratic and the House will stay Republican with a loss of 10 seats or so. The next four years will have the same stalemate and brinksmanship by Republican extremists, and the economy will continue a slow, modest recovery, at least in the next 3 years. The Republicans would be somewhat favored to win the White House in 2016, but the stalemate in congress would continue all the way to at least 2019.

If Obama can get a 5 point win nationally, he will win FL by 1 or 2 and NC will be a toss-up. Then the Democrats have a chance to sweep the Senate toss-up races and take back the House by a narrow margin. A few Democratic programs would then be able to pass through the stalemate, the economy would recover faster, and something of a regeneracy would be on our hands. There would be some chance then of Democratic wins in future elections from then on, though I think Ryan is favored over Hillary.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-19-2012 at 04:31 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11061 at 10-19-2012 01:30 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
You know, we may not be that far apart.

First, I think we both see monetary policy being a very poor substitute for fiscal policy....
All in all, I would much prefer Ron Paul's (!) suggestion that the FED burn its $1.7 trillion and growing in bond holdings that counts as part of the national debt. Paul sees this as bankruptcy, but once it happens and we get over that stupidity (much like we got over the S&P's downgrade of US debt), maybe we'll also firgure out we need to burn those Social Security Trust bonds and all other such govt trusts where the govt owes itself and counts as part of the US debt. Gee, we just cut the federal debt $5-6 trillion. Maybe then we could put aside all this monetary policy (and, more importantly, t-bagger federal debt stupidity) and start talking about some fiscal policy that would actually get the economy growing robustly. Nay, that would be too easy.
That post all sounded pretty good to me.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11062 at 10-19-2012 02:21 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Local journalists in IA and WI think the race is now tied in their states, with Romney surging. Meanwhile, Romney has been drawing huge crowds in OH, up to 10,000 each in multiple events.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-19-2012 at 02:24 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11063 at 10-19-2012 04:55 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
It's not just the "welfare state" (which in my mind, also includes Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance). It's regulation of business. If you think that the environment is important, you won't like the libertarian platform.

Basically, libertarians support small government in all dimensions -- economic, social, and military.
There are definitely problems with the LP. Unfortunately, it is vulnerable to disaffected Tea Partiers that defect as well as liberal pacifists. I can't imagine the two playing nicely in one party. They have common ground, but the TP social agenda doesn't work for liberals (the reverse is also true). For instance, the LP platform used to be neutral on abortion, but I don't know what they think about it now.







Post#11064 at 10-19-2012 05:10 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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The polls and predictions are getting so thick at this point that you need hip boots to wade through them. What is clear is that this election is closer than 2004, and Romney is doing better than Kerry did.

Obama vs. Romney Compared to Bush vs. Kerry

The convention and debate schedule was slightly different (the DNC was earlier in 2004 than the RNC this year, and the debates started and ended earlier, while the incumbent conventions were held at the same time in both years), but Romney's numbers have been consistently higher than Kerry's throughout the last month and a half, and where the 2004 debates only narrowed Bush's lead to a couple of points, this year's debates have pushed Romney into the lead.

There are also these facts:

1. No incumbent president has ever been re-elected with a smaller margin the second time around.
2. The economy is terrible.
3. The right track/wrong track views of the public are 55-39.6 in favor of "wrong track".

RCP is now giving VA, CO and NH to Romney. That leaves OH, as usual. We'll see what the actual result is. From this point on it's all going to be media hysteria and propaganda.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11065 at 10-19-2012 05:22 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
The polls and predictions are getting so thick at this point that you need hip boots to wade through them. What is clear is that this election is closer than 2004, and Romney is doing better than Kerry did.

Obama vs. Romney Compared to Bush vs. Kerry

The convention and debate schedule was slightly different (the DNC was earlier in 2004 than the RNC this year, and the debates started and ended earlier, while the incumbent conventions were held at the same time in both years), but Romney's numbers have been consistently higher than Kerry's throughout the last month and a half, and where the 2004 debates only narrowed Bush's lead to a couple of points, this year's debates have pushed Romney into the lead.

There are also these facts:

1. No incumbent president has ever been re-elected with a smaller margin the second time around.
2. The economy is terrible.
3. The right track/wrong track views of the public are 55-39.6 in favor of "wrong track".

RCP is now giving VA, CO and NH to Romney. That leaves OH, as usual. We'll see what the actual result is. From this point on it's all going to be media hysteria and propaganda.
Chuck Todd and Nate Silver have Obama with very slight leads in CO and VA and show larger leads for Romney in FL and NC.







Post#11066 at 10-19-2012 05:24 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
You do know that you can look these things up, right?

LOL, yea I'm busted for being a lazy shyte . Thanks for the video.







Post#11067 at 10-19-2012 06:33 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
It's not just the "welfare state" (which in my mind, also includes Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance). It's regulation of business. If you think that the environment is important, you won't like the libertarian platform.

Basically, libertarians support small government in all dimensions -- economic, social, and military.
I don't include/associate Social Security, Medicare and umemployment insurance with the Welfare State.







Post#11068 at 10-19-2012 07:00 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
I don't include/associate Social Security, Medicare and umemployment insurance with the Welfare State.
Then you could probably eliminate the whole "Welfare State" and not put a 10% dent in the deficit.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#11069 at 10-19-2012 07:43 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
The polls and predictions are getting so thick at this point that you need hip boots to wade through them. What is clear is that this election is closer than 2004, and Romney is doing better than Kerry did.

Obama vs. Romney Compared to Bush vs. Kerry

The convention and debate schedule was slightly different (the DNC was earlier in 2004 than the RNC this year, and the debates started and ended earlier, while the incumbent conventions were held at the same time in both years), but Romney's numbers have been consistently higher than Kerry's throughout the last month and a half, and where the 2004 debates only narrowed Bush's lead to a couple of points, this year's debates have pushed Romney into the lead.

There are also these facts:

1. No incumbent president has ever been re-elected with a smaller margin the second time around.
2. The economy is terrible.
3. The right track/wrong track views of the public are 55-39.6 in favor of "wrong track".

RCP is now giving VA, CO and NH to Romney. That leaves OH, as usual. We'll see what the actual result is. From this point on it's all going to be media hysteria and propaganda.

1. This is clearly a 4T. The rules change dramatically in a 4T from a 3T. The Bush/Kerry election was clearly 3T; the Obama/McCain election was 4T because of the economic meltdown that began in 2007 because of economic crimes of the last preceding year. The eighteen months of the 2007-2009 economic meltdown are eerily parallel to the first eighteen months of the 1929-1932 meltdown that lasted twice as long. The difference is that in 1930 the President didn't do what eventually put an end to the last Great Meltdown.... FDR, like Obama, backed the banks.

2. FDR was re-elected in a landslide after four years of poor economic results but unambiguous growth of the economy. Because of the cultural polarization of America that has existed since at least 2000 I cannot expect a similar result.

3. Barack Obama is an above-average President. He has a huge number of legislative achievements even if it was only in the first half of his first term. Congress is extremely unpopular due to its severe under-performance. He has avoided serious scandals. He got the US out of Iraq and has a clear plan for an exit from Afghanistan. He masterfully handled the demise of Moammar Qaddafi and got Osama bin Laden whacked. If you ask are we better off now than we were four years ago, then consider all the talk of a new Great Depression. The American economy is growing out of the 'Lesser Depression' without a speculative boom and without huge public projects.

You are right about the propaganda, though -- it comes from the Hard Right -- FoX Newspeak Channel, the Republican Party, the National Chamber of Commerce, and GOP front groups. That stuff is Orwellian. The line between flooding the media and totalitarian command is razor-thin. Employers are telling employees to make sure to vote for right-wing pols if they want to keep their jobs.

There is now a country in which much like that now goes on... and oligarchs dominate the economy. Economic inequality is even more severe than in the United States.

It straddles eleven time zones.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11070 at 10-19-2012 07:46 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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http://nsfwcorp.co/wbp3h1


Putin On The Mitts >> Romney Using The Same Campaign Tactics That “Number One Foe” Uses

One of the biggest shocks for me since getting tossed out of Russia four years ago was coming back to an America that’s taking on Russia’s worst traits: oligarchy, inequality, a two-tier justice system depending on your wealth.

Now that Romney and his financial backers are openly pressuring company employees to vote for Romney, add "Putin-style elections" to the list of Russian traits America is acquiring.

Last year, I first broke this story with Mike Elk for The Nation about how the Koch brothers were ramming political propaganda down their workers’ throats, advising them which candidates to vote for — all right-wing freemarketeers, nearly all Republican — warning their employees that if their slate of candidates weren’t elected, their jobs could be lost due to economic catastrophe.

The Kochs and other employers can do this thanks to Citizens United, which has done more to speed up the Putin-ization of America than Putin himself could have dreamed of in his darkest fantasies. From the time of the New Deal labor laws until the Citizens United decision in 2010, employers were barred from pressuring their employees on how to vote in elections, for the obvious simple reason that employers have an enormous amount of leverage over employees.

As Marquette University law professor Paul Secunda told me last year:

"Before Citizens United, federal election law allowed a company like Koch Industries to talk to officers and shareholders about whom to vote for, but not to talk with employees about whom to vote for. Now, companies like Koch Industries are free to send out newsletters persuading their employees how to vote. They can even intimidate their employees into voting for their candidates. It’s a very troubling situation."

This past week, Mike Elk reported that the Kochs are once again pressuring their employees on how to vote—for Mitt Romney, in case you’re wondering. Here’s what Elk wrote:

"In a voter information packet obtained by In These Times, the Koch Industries corporate leadership informed tens of thousands of employees at its subsidiary, Georgia Pacific, that their livelihood could depend on the 2012 election and that the company supports Mitt Romney for president. The guide was similar to one the company distributed before the 2010 midterm elections, which Mark Ames and I reported on in The Nation last year.

The packet arrived in the mailboxes of all 45,000 Georgia Pacific employees earlier this month."

Elk quotes a letter from Koch Industries COO warning company employees:

"If we elect candidates who want to spend hundreds of billions in borrowed money on costly new subsidies for a few favored cronies, put unprecedented regulatory burdens on businesses, prevent or delay important new construction projects, and excessively hinder free trade, then many of our more than 50,000 U.S. employees and contractors may suffer the consequences, including higher gasoline prices, runaway inflation, and other ills."

And then on Wednesday, Elk posted the audio of a conference call Mitt Romney gave to the National Federation of Independent Business telling employers to put pressure on their employees to vote Romney:

"I hope you make it very clear to your employees what you believe is in the best interest of your enterprise and therefore their job and their future in the upcoming elections. And whether you agree with me or you agree with President Obama, or whatever your political view, I hope, I hope you pass those along to your employees."

The employers’ association that Romney spoke to, the National Federation of Independent Business, didn’t even bother hiding the audio that Elk reposted—because now, thanks to Citizens United, it’s no longer illegal to apply that pressure on employees, as Romney himself cheerfully noted in his conference call:

"Nothing illegal about you talking to your employees about what you believe is best for the business, because I think that will figure into their election decision, their voting decision and of course doing that with your family and your kids as well."

It may not be illegal, but then again, in a tinpot oligarchy or pseudo-democracy, a lot of anti-democratic things are "legal."

And the Kochs are hardly alone among pro-Romney plutocrats pressuring their employees. Gawker outed billionaire Peter Seigel, CEO of Westgate Resorts, for threatening to fire his 7,000 employees if Obama wins. The New Republic exposed how the largest private coal company in America, Murray Energy, strong-armed its employees to not only vote Republican, but to donate money as well—Murray Energy’s CEO even kept lists of employees who didn’t attend Republican fundraisers and rallies, and attacked them by name.

The irony of course is that this is exactly how Putin and the Kremlin "win" their elections—and it’s the sort of election fraud that sparked huge demonstrations last December. What Romney's CEO billionaire backers are doing—with Romney's encouragement—is exactly the sort of antidemocratic fraud that American-backed NGOs and election monitors, like the beleaguered Golos, denounce when Putin's cronies use the same authoritarian pressure tactics.

Last December, in the lead-up to Russia’s rigged parliamentary elections, the US-funded Golos developed an interactive map of election violations and fraud. It was perhaps the first time since Putin took power that a US-backed NGO connected with frustrated Russians (anything US-backed had been in the doghouse and discredited since the disastrous Yeltsin days).

The sort of electoral fraud and violations that Golos collected on its "Map of Violations" sound like standard stuff for the Romney campaign, as reported in the New York Times:

"4,500 reports alleging illegal campaign tactics, including stories of employers threatening workers with pay cuts and local officials ordering business leaders to pressure subordinates."

In the 2007 Russian parliamentary elections, which allowed Putin to move from President to Prime Minister for awhile (he’s now President again, good for him!)—Golos reported similar violations, as reported in the Moscow Times back then:

"Golos, a nongovernmental organization funded by U.S. and EU donors, among others, said it suspected that employers and bosses were forcing employees to receive the ballots to ensure that they actually vote, in order to gain a higher turnout. Such pressure would violate election law."

Note that, unlike in America, in Russia it is at least technically illegal for employers to pressure employees on how to vote. So in that sense, we’ve already regressed further from democracy than Putin’s Russia. America’s elections, by the standards of the same elections monitors we fund over in Russia, are looking increasingly as rigged and undemocratic as Russia’s.

Golos was shut down briefly by Russian courts for doing its job — which largely consisted of collecting and exposing incidents in which bosses applied pressure on their workers to vote for Putin's Party in the Duma elections. This year, the Kremlin moved to cut off western funding for Golos, after they exposed similar antidemocratic tactics in the vote that reinstalled Putin as Russia's president.

In other words, for authoritarian oligarchy to survive, it needs to be able to work with CEOs to pressure their employees—what Romney is doing today, thanks to Citizens United.

And yet, even Romney’s top Russia policy advisor to his campaign, Leon Aron, in denouncing Putin’s sham elections, singled out "forcing state employees to vote" among the list of sins.

So Mitt Romney has adopted the same anti-democratic electioneering tactics of the same villain that Romney has promised to start a new Cold War with once he becomes president, having already designated Russia as "our Number One geopolitical foe."

In the comedy version of this story, Putin and Romney finally meet in a showdown, wherein Putin tells Romney, "You and I, we’re alike Mr. President—is that why you hate me so?"

In the real-life version, we get none of the irony and comedy, and all of the corruption authoritarianism, and oligarchy.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11071 at 10-19-2012 08:18 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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10-19-2012, 08:18 PM #11071
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Then you could probably eliminate the whole "Welfare State" and not put a 10% dent in the deficit.
I run into or overheard a significant number of people, many of them seniors on SS and Medicare, who think most of their tax dollars go to "lazy welfare queens". I tell them most of it goes to the military, their Medicare coverage, and their SS check. They then accuse me of being a liar or they change the subject.

Denial and willful ignorance is a sad thing.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11072 at 10-19-2012 08:23 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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10-19-2012, 08:23 PM #11072
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JPT, if the Republicans are ahead, why are they trying to disenfranchise minority voters in swing states? That implies that they are behind and are using dirty tricks to steal the election.

Oh, and I've just seen a story saying that Mitten's son Tagg Romney has large investments in a company that makes Ohio's electronic touch-screen voting machines. Conflict of interest, anyone???
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11073 at 10-19-2012 08:47 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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10-19-2012, 08:47 PM #11073
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
JPT, if the Republicans are ahead, why are they trying to disenfranchise minority voters in swing states? That implies that they are behind and are using dirty tricks to steal the election.

Oh, and I've just seen a story saying that Mitten's son Tagg Romney has large investments in a company that makes Ohio's electronic touch-screen voting machines. Conflict of interest, anyone???
Add to that -- corporations using their employees as political pawns, pressuring them to vote, attend political rallies, and make campaign contributions to the politicians of the corporation's choice.

Just think of what American politics would be like if getting a desirable job, holding a job, or advancing within it depended to no small extent upon political activity. Think of what could be done.

"All applications for the job of Payroll Clerk shall include a signed check for the amount of $100 with no payee identified. Any application not containing such a check appropriately signed and for the appropriate amount shall disqualify the applicant who will not be given a second chance to offer the required supplement to his application The check will be forwarded at the discretion of the Company irrespective of whether the candidate is offered or accepts any position. It will be forwarded to the campaign fund of a political leader who has a patriotic attitude toward the American economy".

That is how bad things could get.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11074 at 10-19-2012 08:50 PM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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10-19-2012, 08:50 PM #11074
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
JPT, if the Republicans are ahead, why are they trying to disenfranchise minority voters in swing states? That implies that they are behind and are using dirty tricks to steal the election.

Oh, and I've just seen a story saying that Mitten's son Tagg Romney has large investments in a company that makes Ohio's electronic touch-screen voting machines. Conflict of interest, anyone???
Why can't minorities (poor folks in general) get valid ID's?







Post#11075 at 10-19-2012 08:51 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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10-19-2012, 08:51 PM #11075
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OK, the hyper-partisans at Democratic Underground have officially pissed me off. Our side was, rightfully, going after Sarah Palin's 2010 political ad with gun sights as inciting violence, then this DU thread pops up with equally violent rhetoric (like "shoot to kill" and "kick this asshole off a cliff", and I call out the OP for the hypocrisy. Then come the excuses.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
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