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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 445







Post#11101 at 10-20-2012 11:02 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Awesome vid, Copper. I'd never seen it before. Thanks.


Prince

PS: "Slavery! Fuck Yeah!" Too funny!
You're kidding... You have never seen Team America: World Police? Rent or stream immediately.







Post#11102 at 10-20-2012 11:03 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Rani View Post
I note that you said this:

"IMO The Libertarian party are actually Right-Libertarians, who are, to quote Sci-Fi author Kim Stanley Robinson, Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves."

But if you're now taking that one back, fine.
I don't necessarily agree with Odin's take on the party structure itself (which is actually a bunch of rag-tag idealists from what I've seen), or all the people who support it (who include myself from time to time).

But I do think the group he's talking about exists, and I think it is very influential on the media side of the libertarian news cycle.
Last edited by JohnMc82; 10-20-2012 at 11:11 AM.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#11103 at 10-20-2012 11:10 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
Really? Why? Cause we're so good at creating bad TV and cronic health conditions? Sparta at least knew exactly what it stood for. What do you suppose America (fuck yeah!) stands for these days?
Can't believe I have to explain this to an Xer, but...

"It doesn't matter, we could kick their ass." All they really stood for was being the best on the battlefield, and we're so much better than they could ever be.

In the meantime, we might not have much we agree on as a country. The shared part of our culture might be shallow and materialistic. We are definitely united in a pursuit of the good life, and all those secular pleasures that money can buy.

Buy beyond that, there is a lot of depth. Our beliefs and philosophies and inspirations might not be united, but we should trust that we all (or most) have them in one form or another. That is the true strength and identity of America: it is a lot more dynamic and has the potential to be more powerful than any one-dimensional cause or purpose can ever be.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#11104 at 10-20-2012 11:35 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Can't believe I have to explain this to an Xer, but...

"It doesn't matter, we could kick their ass." All they really stood for was being the best on the battlefield, and we're so much better than they could ever be.

In the meantime, we might not have much we agree on as a country. The shared part of our culture might be shallow and materialistic. We are definitely united in a pursuit of the good life, and all those secular pleasures that money can buy.

Buy beyond that, there is a lot of depth. Our beliefs and philosophies and inspirations might not be united, but we should trust that we all (or most) have them in one form or another. That is the true strength and identity of America: it is a lot more dynamic and has the potential to be more powerful than any one-dimensional cause or purpose can ever be.
And yet those Spartans would still stand there on the opposite side of the battlefield. They didn't care if they were going to get their ass kicked or not. Their culture and values were to fight the good fight no matter what. This is not exactly a value that America shares today. America as a culture today, values picking on the weak. To be fair, this sort of culture has defined the final days of every empire throughout history. So again, what do we stand for? Do you really believe America is better just cause we say so? Better in what? Start to define "better" by what it really is instead of what we are told it is. I think once you do, you will find more questions than answers. Real patriotism doesn't require flags, slogans, bullet points and pom-poms.







Post#11105 at 10-20-2012 11:59 AM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
And yet those Spartans would still stand there on the opposite side of the battlefield. They didn't care if they were going to get their ass kicked or not. Their culture and values were to fight the good fight no matter what.
Fight the good fight? Out of some sense of idealism? Or because their entire society was organized around winning at all costs?

This is not exactly a value that America shares today. America as a culture today, values picking on the weak. To be fair, this sort of culture has defined the final days of every empire throughout history. So again, what do we stand for? Do you really believe America is better just cause we say so? Better in what? Start to define "better" by what it really is instead of what we are told it is. I think once you do, you will find more questions than answers. Real patriotism doesn't require flags, slogans, bullet points and pom-poms.
Relative to Sparta, we're better off materially and militaristically. We're probably also a lot less indoctrinated and blindly patriotic, so let's be careful of romanticizing failed civilizations. I never said America is the best at anything (and I probably wouldn't, except maybe for picking on weaker states). I also don't think we're headed in the right direction, and our choice might ultimately be limited to speeding up or delaying the decline.

I definitely don't think we're going to fix the fundamental issues by saving a few percents from the little bit of social safety net and human capital investment we have left.
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#11106 at 10-20-2012 01:43 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Fight the good fight? Out of some sense of idealism? Or because their entire society was organized around winning at all costs?
That was their culture, yes. While we may not hold the same values, they sure did. Having different values and morals then them does not make us better though. You still haven't really defined what better means yet. The broad statements of "patriotism" and nationalism like "America is the best country in the world" or "America is number 1" or "God favors America" are almost always left intentionally vague. This is because these statements are mostly based on delusional, poorly-reasoned thought and yes, even indoctrination and blind patriotism. Believing America is "the best country in the world" is fine for those with minds that respond well to bumper stickers, but for me (I have a terrible disability called thinking) I need to hear a little more substance in the argument. Best? Better? Why? Is it even that important to you to be better?

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Relative to Sparta, we're better off materially and militaristically.
And these things make us better how? Because we have more stuff? Because we use these things to enslave? Because we use them to push around the weak?

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
We're probably also a lot less indoctrinated and blindly patriotic, so let's be careful of romanticizing failed civilizations.
I don't know. Which is worse? Romanticizing failed civilizations or romanticizing a failing civilization?

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
I never said America is the best at anything (and I probably wouldn't, except maybe for picking on weaker states). I also don't think we're headed in the right direction, and our choice might ultimately be limited to speeding up or delaying the decline.
No but you did claim we were better (again without really defining) which requires many of the same assumptions and vague logic. At most we have your contention that having more stuff and having a higher level of military technology (not necessarily fighting-skill) makes us better than a civilization that existed 2500 years ago. You will need to forgive me, but these things don't strike me as better in the cultural or values sense (or even as a great mark of our civilization). In 2500 years what do you think people will be saying about our long-dead state?

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
I definitely don't think we're going to fix the fundamental issues by saving a few percents from the little bit of social safety net and human capital investment we have left.
I don't really disagree with you but I also wouldn't agree if you were arguing the reverse. We also won't fix the fundamental issues by spending a few more percent. That's because the fundamental issues have little to do with a few silly pennies in either direction.







Post#11107 at 10-20-2012 02:07 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
IMO The Libertarian party are actually Right-Libertarians, who are, to quote Sci-Fi author Kim Stanley Robinson, Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
What slaves?







Post#11108 at 10-20-2012 02:12 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
JPT, if the Republicans are ahead, why are they trying to disenfranchise minority voters in swing states? That implies that they are behind and are using dirty tricks to steal the election.

Oh, and I've just seen a story saying that Mitten's son Tagg Romney has large investments in a company that makes Ohio's electronic touch-screen voting machines. Conflict of interest, anyone???
Minority voters like double voters, non-citizens, convicts and the dead. Prime party constituencies.







Post#11109 at 10-20-2012 02:15 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
But you just said you don't consider Social Security to be welfare!? Disability is a small part of it, and most of the people who end up collecting that small part are well in to their careers before they are eligible (ie, the 40 year old construction worker who has a ton of bricks fall on him one day)

You take out that 5% of the 5% and great, you've saved a hundred million each year so some people in a crappy situation end up in an even crappier one. I mean, you're not rushing to trade places with any of them for a little government cheese, are you?
Social Security is something you pay into, but the payback is fuzzy. I would not call it welfare, but it's a little hinky.







Post#11110 at 10-20-2012 02:17 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Dude, I can't tell you. I don't know enough about Odin. I'll tell you what though, I'd hate to be in a situation where I was eligible for any kind of help from the U.S. government. You've gotta be in a pretty crappy place for anything at all to really kick in.

The vast, vast majority of transfer payments are actually Social Security re-payments: benefits to retirees, survivors, dependents, and disabled people who had previously paid in to the system.

Something like food stamps or temporary assistance to needy families is a small, small budget outlay compared to Social Security, the military, and veteran's benefits. Medicare is huge, too, but again, it is mostly going to older people who paid in their entire lives. The main reason it is so out of control is because other market and regulatory factors have combined to make American medical care ridiculously expensive yet slightly less effective than average. Some of that, in turn, comes from our food and agriculture policy... which is influenced by etc., etc., etc...


There's a lot of issues woven together, tangled up in a big mess, and we certainly aren't going to get very far by throwing our society's most vulnerable to the wolves. This is not Sparta and if you wish it was we have the Navy SEALs for you to try out for.

Disability recipients have increased a lot under Obama. has he really diavbled that many people?

America did not throw its most vulnerable to the wolves before the New Deal, so that is a strawman.







Post#11111 at 10-20-2012 02:19 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
That's none of your business and totally irrelevant to what Indie and I were talking about.
It is relevant to whose is footing the bill for the gravy train.







Post#11112 at 10-20-2012 02:21 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I get only a small bit of SSI now and will be off of it shortly because I'll be working more hours starting in November, supervising the afternoon shift. You make it sound like getting government money is so awesome and everybody wants to do it, which says more about you than anything else.
Go back to the number of people suddenly on disability. You think getting something for nothing is not attractive? Then stop the SSI right now. Prove it.







Post#11113 at 10-20-2012 02:22 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
Social Security is something you pay into, but the payback is fuzzy. I would not call it welfare, but it's a little hinky.
No it's not. It's insurance. If you don't understand insurance, then you should go bare on your house and car. Don't have a fire or hit a tree though.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#11114 at 10-20-2012 02:22 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Even better, you can train part time and play Spartan for one weekend out of the year! No real commitment! It does look really cool, though. The first time I read about that was probably the first time I was interested in any sort of race.

But warriors have kids. They have widows. The lucky & skilled ones have pensions to be paid for. Fighting in the economic jungle or the terrorist infested mountains, sometimes American warriors get unlucky and need a little help before they can get back to the cause. There's a lot of metaphors and things to think about there, but the point is we're better than Sparta, and we're a lot stronger than they ever were.
Actaully, i think the real Spartans took care of each other.







Post#11115 at 10-20-2012 02:23 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
Disability recipients have increased a lot under Obama. has he really diavbled that many people?

America did not throw its most vulnerable to the wolves before the New Deal, so that is a strawman.
No, mostly they didin't survive or simply died young. What a wonderful model of modernity.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#11116 at 10-20-2012 02:23 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
From Odin's posts, I know he's working and doing what he can to support himself. He has a damn job.

The truth of the matter is that most of your (and my) state and federal dollars don't go toward Odin or anyone in his situation, which is temporary. So he needs a hand up. In the long run, he'll be paying in like the rest of us, because the vast majority of people do--even if you speyshul people don't like to acknowledge it.

It is so tiresome to listen to people bitch about taxes when they're lower now than anything my GI parents paid and paid willingly. What a bunch of entitled wimps. Like you suffer so much. You ::sniff:: work so hard. What a bore.
But he gets soemthing like one hundred dollars a month whether he has a job or not for his problem.







Post#11117 at 10-20-2012 02:25 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Yes, Odin. That's it exactly. I'm an Anarchist that wants police protection from my slaves. I can't believe how blind I was to that fact. Thanks for enlightening me. I feel so much smarter now.


Prince
Still trying to figure out what slaves. He'll probably come up with some marxist crap about wage slaves. Iow, having to support yourself is slavery.







Post#11118 at 10-20-2012 02:27 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I've read that something like 80% of Aspies are unemployed. And folks like KIA, Glick, and Wallace dare accuse ME of being a lazy slacker? I HAVE a fucking job! I pay sales taxes and FICA.
When are you going to give back all that disability money?







Post#11119 at 10-20-2012 02:28 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
And yet those Spartans would still stand there on the opposite side of the battlefield. They didn't care if they were going to get their ass kicked or not. Their culture and values were to fight the good fight no matter what. This is not exactly a value that America shares today. America as a culture today, values picking on the weak. To be fair, this sort of culture has defined the final days of every empire throughout history. So again, what do we stand for? Do you really believe America is better just cause we say so? Better in what? Start to define "better" by what it really is instead of what we are told it is. I think once you do, you will find more questions than answers. Real patriotism doesn't require flags, slogans, bullet points and pom-poms.
How does America value picking on the weak?







Post#11120 at 10-20-2012 02:31 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
No it's not. It's insurance. If you don't understand insurance, then you should go bare on your house and car. Don't have a fire or hit a tree though.
It is mostly insurance against old age, which is sort of a given.


The disability part is the part that givews out first.

Most people over insure their house for fire. Is the fire really going to burn the ground?







Post#11121 at 10-20-2012 02:34 PM by Wallace 88 [at joined Dec 2010 #posts 1,232]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
No, mostly they didin't survive or simply died young. What a wonderful model of modernity.
You are giving the welfare state credit for developements that had nothing to do with the welfare, like penicillin blood transfusions and cancer treatments. Maybe lower smoking?







Post#11122 at 10-20-2012 04:25 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
How does America value picking on the weak?
Watch TV lately?

or read the news?

or watch youtube?

Want some more?

Of course it's hard to see how people would ever learn to value picking on the weak in this country.







Post#11123 at 10-20-2012 05:26 PM by JohnMc82 [at Back in Jax joined Jan 2011 #posts 1,962]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
When are you going to give back all that disability money?
Probably several times over the next forty years... depending on how much the Republicans manage to stifle wages moving forward.

Did you mark a celebration day for when you pay us back for all the investment we put in your schooling? Send us some cigars!
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.

'82 - Once & always independent







Post#11124 at 10-20-2012 07:40 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Wallace 88 View Post
It is mostly insurance against old age, which is sort of a given.


The disability part is the part that gives out first.

Most people over insure their house for fire. Is the fire really going to burn the ground?
Most people insure their houses as required by the mortgage holder get some coverage for contents. They don't have a choice; the insurance exists to protect the lender.

Once a frame house catches on fire, it usually burns completely enough that it is totaled. The dirty little secret is that the fire brigade almost always gets to the fire too late to save the building. The fire department is there to rescue people in the building... and protect neighboring buildings from the fire. The fire department is there to prevent the fire from spreading, and will most likely be back to investigate the cause in the event that someone makes a fraudulent claim or someone dies or is severely injured in the fire.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11125 at 10-20-2012 07:45 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Probably several times over the next forty years... depending on how much the Republicans manage to stifle wages moving forward.
This is a prime example of a central left wing, statistic-based article of faith that is completely false. They pound it over and over again: wages are stagnant. They don't tell you that total compensation has risen steadily, and the reason take-home pay has not risen comes down to one overriding factor: health care costs. Specifically, the cost of health insurance. So they fixed that when they launched a massive health care takeover in the middle of a depression, right? Wrong. They ignored costs. All they cared about was making sure everyone had insurance, whether they wanted it or not.

They didn't just not fix it, they made it worse. Once Obamacare goes into effect, it will be even more expensive for employers to pay for health insurance than it was before.

They're smarter than everybody else, and morally superior. But somehow they're stupid enough not to know the truth about it. They actually blame all of it on Scrooge McDuck (R) trying to "stifle wages", while rubbing his hands together and cackling with glee. It's delusional.
Last edited by JustPassingThrough; 10-20-2012 at 07:52 PM.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987
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