This doesn't say anything. I think the proper Xer response would be something along the lines of "yea, and your momma wears army boots."Originally Posted by Justin '77
- and this changes the topic - I believe to suggestions on how best to frolic in decentralized magic pony land.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
oh, it will not.
what a bunch of lying crap.
for someone who screams about christians being persecuted, you sure seem to take undue pleasure in breaking the commandment about lying.
You mised the most obvious example of hard money: Rai stones. They aren't very mobile, but they work. Here's a personal favorite, though far from the largest out there:Here's a 1928 silver certificate -
- backed by silver and limited by silver held by the US govt. There sure was a hell of a lot more of these issued in 1928 than issued in 1828 to account for a larger economy - and sure, periods of inflation but also periods of severe deflation.
Or, are you one of those guys that believe money can only be chunks of metal you have to lug around? One might suggest that would make you truly a throw-back to ancient times before paper was used as money, but the most recent evidence is that "tally sticks" served in economic transactions long before anybody got the idea to make metal coins. Medival "tally sticks" were mostly made of wood and that's a lot closer to paper than it is to metal. Tally sticks made of bone date back to 20,000 BC; weird to thing that cavemen would be more at ease in a modern economy than yourself.
It makes spending so much fun .. and great exercise to boot.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Well then maybe you can make the Xer to Boomer translation.
Justin says I'm only covering his old ground but then says I'm making a mistake.
He doesn't admit to any mistakes in his "old ground"
Ergo.... WTF???
I've tried to get at what he's saying by suggesting his claim is that the govt will always "flood" the economy with fiat money - implying that it always leads to inflation. I could actually buy into this to a moderate degree because you need a little inflation in a healthy growing economy (its where order books are over prescribed and forces an always reluctant businessman to invest in expanding) and it could lead to an interesting discussion.
However, he slips away from that conclusion so I then suggest its about the govt does literally require revenue in order to spend, but he slips away from that as well with some hint of a difference in definitions followed by a unrelated trip to decentralized pixie dust.
So, all wise and powerful Indy, just what the F is the argument from Justin that I'm trying to refute??? Or is this just an Xer thingee - ornery for the sake of orneriness alone?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
Dammit. You're claiming puppies and bunnies? I mean, the pups make sense, but bunnies? Color me a bit...Well aren't you a little defensive, but I guess such is warranted for a friend. I guess it's my turn to protect my rights to post puppy pictures before Justin does.
Must pounce before the opportunity is missed.
~Chas'88
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch
"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy
"[it] is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
It's a little harder to trace that Micronesia line of contribution back though the Romans, Greeks, Persians.. but who the hell knows for sure. Imagine one of those Rai stones on the Kon Tiki!You mised the most obvious example of hard money: Rai stones. They aren't very mobile, but they work. Here's a personal favorite, though far from the largest out there:
It makes spending so much fun .. and great exercise to boot.
Actually, I do wish Timmy G would mint one of those Rae stones and stamp it at $2 Trillion. Roll it just a few blocks down Constitution and trade it to Big Ben for the equivalent in bonds the FED is holding. That would instanteously bring the Federal debt down $2 Trillion - more than twice the amount of the upcoming "Fiscal Cliff." However, what then would there be left for Congress critters to do over the holidays???
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service
“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke
"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman
If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite
You can bunnies all you want. I was looking for a pouncing picture and that was the one that came to mind. And I think I'll stick to a specific breed of puppies, mostly because I'm biased and like the breed my parents bred.Dammit. You're claiming puppies and bunnies? I mean, the pups make sense, but bunnies? Color me a bit...
But we can all get along...
I will warn you though that once my breed hits puberty the friendship with bunnies thing goes sour.
Running it what triggers this scene. Lost a few cats that way. So just don't run.
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 10-22-2012 at 04:58 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Greyhounds are killers. You cannot trust them with any creatures smaller than themselves except humans and fellow dogs. About any dog can be a cat's best friend (cats are similar enough to dogs that dogs can treat them as if dogs, which is a satisfying relationship) but not a greyhound. Cats run like rabbits.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Thing is, those aren't Greyhounds. Don't worry everybody mixes them up. They're cousins though. Here's the more traditional look of the breed:
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
Dude, everyone knows it is easier to leave drive-by snark than to actually figure out what is going on!
My bad, and thanks for reminding me I should get back to work...
Soon as I'm done, I want to read a recent IMF-published report resurrecting the idea of the Chicago Plan. There might be a lot of interesting middle ground in there as they are attempting to analyze a theoretical post-Central Bank monetary regime that incorporates some of Ron Paul's Fed bashing with some aspects of MMT and real monetary sovereignty.
Irving Fisher (1936) claimed the following advantages for this plan:
(1) Much better control of a major source of business cycle fluctuations, sudden increases and contractions of bank credit and of the supply of bank-created money.
(2) Complete elimination of bank runs.
(3) Dramatic reduction of the (net) public debt.
(4) Dramatic reduction of private debt, as money creation no longer requires simultaneous debt creation.
We study these claims by embedding a comprehensive and carefully calibrated model of the banking system in a DSGE model of the U.S. economy. We find support for all four of Fisher's claims. Furthermore, output gains approach 10 percent, and steady state inflation can drop to zero without posing problems for the conduct of monetary policy
Those words, "temperate and moderate", are words either of political cowardice, or of cunning, or seduction. A thing, moderately good, is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper, is always a virtue; but moderation in principle, is a species of vice.
'82 - Once & always independent
Facepalm kitty! I'm stealing that!!!
Why didn't I think of that??Thanks, Justin!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Interesting, I'll have to find the time to read this.Dude, everyone knows it is easier to leave drive-by snark than to actually figure out what is going on!
My bad, and thanks for reminding me I should get back to work...
Soon as I'm done, I want to read a recent IMF-published report resurrecting the idea of the Chicago Plan. There might be a lot of interesting middle ground in there as they are attempting to analyze a theoretical post-Central Bank monetary regime that incorporates some of Ron Paul's Fed bashing with some aspects of MMT and real monetary sovereignty.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Very true. Subsidized would probably be a much better word for how things actually work.
I've had trouble paying attention to this debate, mostly because this stuff is tangential at this point. The economy what matters. Romney had a very strong response early on, where Obama came out doing nothing but attacking him, and Romney said something like "attacking me is not a plan for the future". He repeated it later. I don't see this changing the trajectory of the race, except to finalize people's decision to vote for Romney. We could see the definitive tilt in his favor after this. Obama has been the same negative, hollow, small candidate we've seen in each debate, mouthing soundbites and attack lines from his rehearsed stump speeches, with nothing to say about his record except taking inappropriate personal credit for Bin Laden, etc., and no plan for the future. Just a bunch of attacks and distortions against Romney. And he's still running against George W. Bush. His closing statement is nothing but a retread of 2008. He's toast.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987
If it was a boxing match, I think it would have been a draw. But undecided voters are evaluating the candidates in a bigger picture than the specifics they were debating, and I think on that score Obama lost. Romney successfully communicated a fresh start, optimism, "hope and change" even...
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987
President Obama got the zingers in. Mitt spoke mostly in platitudes; he had better avoid foreign policy if he wants a winning issue.
"We also have fewer horses and bayonets".
As for Iran -- One of Mitt's companies invested in a Chinese firm that was dealing in equipment to IRAN.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Yeah, Obama showed his true colors of being a petty and arrogant pretentious asshole tonight (for the few who didn't already realize it).
"Yeah, we have these things called aircraft carriers planes can land on and underwater nuclear submarines."
To which I would have been tempted to reply: "Fuck you, you arrogant and pretentious asshole!" - but fortunately I'm not running for political office. Gov. Romney showed grace and fortitude to a guy attempting to go on the attack in the most pretentious ways possible. It was utterly disgusting to see Obama act like Veruca Salt in being a prick tonight.
j.p.
"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth." -- Raymond Carver
"A page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever
Obama was particularly condescending tonight, but I think it worked more in his favor than it hurt him. He didn't overdo it the same way Biden did. Romney was quite passive, which was a smart move since it made Obama look like the more desperate candidate. Still, I think he was a little too passive, and repeated himself a bit too often. I'd give this debate to Obama, but I don't think much of a dent was made. Most people have made their choice at this point.
'79 Xer, INTP
You've never met a Saluki have you? They're the most cat-like dog of all dog breeds--that is until the cat starts running. As for kitty attacking, I've seen a few try and take on a Saluki, the Saluki sighs shakes their leg/body and the cat goes flying and then running--and then the cat is doomed unless I have the Saluki on a leash. Because then it'll go as follows: chase, catch, throw & twist neck... dead kitty without any blood or gore--because Salukis can't be troubled with all that gore. Then they'll go about happily bringing their game to you (unless its a bunny, then they'll gnaw off the ears before giving it to you) and if you don't want it, they'll bury it for later. Got rid of a lot of Garter snakes that way.You all definitely don't want to ever see me get pissed-off; I'm dangerous(le mew)!:
Prince
PS:Mmmm, Dog. Yummy!!
Not that I'd ever do it to you, Tybalt. However I know my dog breed. In fact one could say I was adopted by them.
One of the bitches (and it's not swearing if you're talking about a female dog) adopted me as a surrogate pup when I was young because she felt my parents weren't holding up their end of the deal. Yay Idealist-like Saluki... actually, no she was more of a Nomad, she made sure her actual pups all toed the line. Although she did rule the roost of more lethargic and "couldn't really give a shit set of dogs", from the day she was a young pup... the other Salukis were former mothers who thought of her as substitute puppy and fawned over her and her cute manner of "giving orders". They eventually learned she was serious and returned to not "giving a shit".
~Chas'88
Last edited by Chas'88; 10-22-2012 at 11:35 PM.
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
From Daily Kos:
Republican attempts to reduce voter turnout in minority neighborhoods are so widespread that, at the request of American civil rights groups, international monitors will oversee our elections:
United Nations-affiliated election monitors from Europe and central Asia will be at polling places around the U.S. looking for voter suppression activities by conservative groups, a concern raised by civil rights groups during a meeting this week.[...]
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), a United Nations partner on democratization and human rights projects, will deploy 44 observers from its human rights office around the country on Election Day to monitor an array of activities, including potential disputes at polling places. It's part of a broader observation mission that will send out an additional 80 to 90 members of parliament from nearly 30 countries.
Liberal-leaning civil rights groups met with representatives from the OSCE this week to raise their fears about what they say are systematic efforts to suppress minority voters likely to vote for President Obama.
The election is going to come down to a battle between Democratic voter turnout efforts and Republican voter suppression efforts.
JPT might think it was a draw, but CBS commentators said Obama landed more punches. Their poll said Obama won by a margin equal to the first debate win by Mittens. Obama was strong, but not arrogant. He just made the attacks on Romney that needed to be made. Both were steady and stable. Romney did show he was well studied on foreign policy.
Romney only attacks the shortcomings of the economy; he does a good job on that, but he has absolutely no answers or policies to correct it. Obama correctly pointed out (and has been too slow to do it) that the economy does not do well without government investment. Romney just trots out the do-nothing laissez faire, government can do nothing ideology; that's all he can offer. It may work for those with big money, or for those who worship authority like JPT. It does not work for the people. And the economy would be much worse today had Romney been elected in 2008, pursuing the very policies that got us into the mess.
Here are my facebook quotes on this debate. Unfortunately most of my Conservative friends were silent for some strange reason tonight... so it's mostly Democratic leaning posters, but here they are:
~Chas'88Bob Schiffer is too old to be moderating...can we get Candy back?....Ms. Crawley, if you are nasty...lol
Let round 3 COMMENCE! Vow of silence huh? What happens when someone yells "PENIS" or "THE GAME" really loud? National television ruined, epic troll lol.
POTUS: The 1980's called, and they want their foreign policy back...boom!
Mitt: We just can't kill folks....Mitt: We will kill anyone responsible...wait what?
So now Romney feels like he is being attacked? Wait what?
"giant douche" or a "turd sandwich?" #debate
The 80's called, they want their foreign policy back.
I am glad that Mitt is not in my class...he would get an F for plagiarism..regurgitating my President's and the moderator's answers is not a plan dude!
I was just thinking, didn't he just change his position during the debate.
POTUS: Gov. Romney doesn't have different ideas, because we are doing what we should be doing...boom!
Listening to the debate and pretending I care (mostly pretending that I haven't decided who I'm voting for) and playing zOMG.
There he goes with that 12 million jobs bs again...but government does not create jobs....stop already dude!
So the guy who outsourced to China, is going to hit up Latin America next...wait what?
The way Mittens keeps talking about strengthening our military...this is code for if I become President, we will have more wars...we see the smoke and mirrors dude!
"There you go again ..."
Mittens needs some of Paul Ryan's water right about now...lol
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/foreign-policy
I have never seen a debate where the candidate tells you to look at their website...signs of the Apocalypse....lol
Are you freaking kidding me? The Olympic bs again....really?
Mittens, please tell me more about how you worked for the Olympics.
Okay, now POTUS is giving him a technology/military lesson...boom!
POTUS: We visited the website quite a bit, and it still doesn't work...boom!
"Our military also has less horses and bayonets" Barack Obama 10/22/12 We should fix that...
Republican, Democrat, or Independent...you can't say that POTUS is not whipping Mitt's ass on foreign policy....it is like a woman who has never given birth trying to coach a woman who has!
I love how he commented saying that we have aircraft carriers and submarines and that's why we have less ships. 1.) We've HAD them, they aren't new technology. 2.) THOSE ARE SHIPS
Obama has a point. No one has engaged in a direct naval battle with the united states since 1945 that I'm aware of. We don't need a massive fleet if no one else has ships capable of taking ours on in a direct fight.
They are bigger obviously, also Pearl harbor happened since 1916.
Mitt Romney sure loves his numbered lists.
They're' both saying the same thing and arguing about it... whats the point?
POTUS: When I went to Israel, I didn't take donors....boom!
Romney shut up!
Mitt Romney is not fit to lead this nation. Period. End of sentence.
Romney makes his weird out of the loop statements and obama--the smiling bobble head he is--blows more smoke and seems to be nodding along and saying how he has done the same thing as president.
Mitt stop calling off countries...this is a debate, not a geography class...ha!
Tis a shame that foreign policy bores a lot of people. This is an intense debate!
Romney legitimately scares me when he says he is going to cut all unnecessary programs
POTUS: Gov. Romney, You have been all over the map....I am glad you finally agree with us...boom!
This is kind of what the debates are like...just more appropriate. Except when Obama says "gangbangers".
Someone once said "I think therefore, I am." Now we say "Pre-emptive strikes, therefore we are." - Sonia Sanchez. Not taking a side, just reflecting that either way you look at it, it's a vastly different world now :/
Another moderator gets Mittens...Bob must have taken his Geritol today...lol
"Mr. President, America has not dictated other nations. We have freed other nations from dictators."
Yeah that is going to leave a bruise.
Streaming this debate!
Annnnnnnd despite just getting out of a tough midterm, I put on the debate. Sigh.
Can one moderator say "that's nice, but can one of you actually answer the fucking question?!?"
This is a travesty. Not one question about the EU, Western Hemisphere trade agreements, the UN, climate change....I'm honestly boggled.
If Tagg Romney wanted to punch POTUS after the second debate...well, Secret Service bring your A game tonight...lol
Stop congratulating Obama for killing Bin Laden. The Navy Seals killed Bin Laden.
POTUS: Gov. Romney is familiar with jobs going overseas, because he invested in companies, which sent jobs overseas....boom!
POTUS: Let's check the record...boom!
I thought George Bush Jr was stupid...then I met Mittens and Sara Palin...lol
How's debate moderator Bob Schieffer doing tonight?
Man, who cares about China and Iran? Tonight, I'm only paying attention to two cities and they're both relatively closer: San Francisco and Chicago.
"I think we all love teachers..."
And now its time to hear the ALL pundits talk about a show other then the one we just watched.
To prove how out of touch Mittens is...there isn't any such thing as food stamps anymore...it is an EBT card. Of course, when you trade stock when you fall on hard times, you don't tend to know the little details.....lol
Really want to know what the Romney grandchildren and Obama are talking about.
If you put... in China... after any of Mitt Romney's closing statements, it actually begins to make sense!?
Sure quote politics now, I've been tackling political topics all day, and every moment of my time on FB since 2007 when I joined! That's right you'll go right back to not caring and being oblivious to the world around you. Just wait until after January you won't care anymore.
I think the Romney grandchildren decided after tonight they're voting for Obama.
Just remember, it's hard to make a positive stand on a record of the past four years when you've done... well, not much of anything. except tell navy seals to get osama bin laden.
You need an Etch-A-Sketch to follow this campaign ... (Is it the second Wednesday in November yet?)
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
It wasn't when I posted it. Oh well, this'll do just as well.
And as you know I'm a fan of both, but I have my favorites. Salukis for dogs and Chat Noirs for cats:
~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."
I think Obama made himself look small. Literally almost no one watching cared about the foreign policy substance of the debate. The economy is all that matters, so in this debate style was all that mattered. Romney accomplished what he needed to accomplish in the big picture.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987
All Romney needed to do was appear Presidential, he did that. Winning on points is essentially meaningless. The only decisive outcome may have been an outright Obama loss like the 1st debate that would have absolutely sealed his doom. The internals of the CNN poll is instructive.... it asked if each could be Commander in chief...Obama 63% Romney 60%.
I doubt this debate moves the needle at all as the latest Gallup poll shows that the economy is far and away the major issue of the campaign. Romney has a very slight lead overall in the polling and is gaing in the swing states as evidenced by Gallup, NBC/WSJ and Rasmussen. Romney has alot unspent money and the RNC has 85 million to spend as well as outside groups.
