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Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 452







Post#11276 at 10-23-2012 10:11 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post

... as for Hollywood... if I never see a car roll down an embankment and explode, if I never hear another f@rt joke, if I never see an angry war veteran going amok, if I never see another rape scene, and if I never see some superhero rescue a falling damsel by reaching her with a speed higher than the usual terminal velocity of a falling object in a movie I will miss nothing for such. All of those demonstrate a lack of writing skill and a lack of taste of the people involved. But let us remember that the most glorious time for Hollywood movies occurred at the same time that many of the finest writers, directors, cameramen, sound crews, and actors could no longer work in Germany when someone with an eerie resemblance to Charlie Chaplin ruled. You may find it hard to believe, but India is now a bigger film market than the US. The German film industry put out much $#!+ as Hollywood had its best years... and as it turns out, Casablanca is the best piece of cinematic propaganda ever made. Don't laugh about what the German film industry could have become; Metropolis (1927) and M (1931) are on par with Hollywood movies of the time.
Skipping over the politics as we'll never agree (although I had a good laugh at the poetic phrase of "dark satanic mills")...

Don't short change Leni Riefenstahl. She basically created contemporary film-making (Eastman Kodak has to create all newly developed cameras and film just for her). The woman was a brilliant film-maker. And if she had lived in a different era or location she would have been as big as Spielberg. As far as pure propaganda goes - I doubt much will ever compare to Triumph des Willens. While I don't happen to subscribe to the political ideology of the film, I don't have to in order to appreciate the complexity and power of that film. Casablanca is incredible - Triumph des Willens or Olympia it is not though. I actually prefer Patton to be honest though as opposed to Casablanca.

There are still some great films being made in the U.S. - but the majority of them are independent films fighting for distribution deals. Hollywood isn't producing most of them. The best film I've probably seen in the last decade is The Way with Martin Sheen and Emilio Estevez - absolutely soul-inspiring film of great depth (an adult version of The Wizard of Oz in many ways). I highly recommend it if you haven't seen it.

j.p.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#11277 at 10-23-2012 10:19 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
Hey, with all the folks migrating from Hollywood, we might actually get a resurgence of good film-making again and break away from all these horrible remakes and turn your mind off "blow shit up" explosion Michael Bay travesties. Nah, that's probably being too wishful there.

j.p.
LOL the fact that you regard michael bay of all people as the quintessential "hollywood liberal" shows the extent of teabagger delusion. That teabaggers don't grasp the fact that most americans regard Russia and Iran as America's sworn enemies and would be repulsed at the thought of the US Betraying NATO to join their alliance. I say this because despite popular belief most of the current tea party republicans are not the same people who supported the need to escalate during the afghanistan and iraq operations. In fact those who later became the teabaggers spent the bush years spreading conspiracy theories insinuating that the US government was responsible for 9/11 so-called "9/11 truth", when obama was elected these people later became birthers. Its no surprise that the tea party has advocated isolationism, Given that they secretly desire the destruction of nato and israel, they essentially share the same goals as ahmadinejad and putin.







Post#11278 at 10-23-2012 10:23 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
Mr. Playwrite, any comments on the disagreement over the differing opinions i/r/t the
GM-Bankrupcy issue? Was President Obama correct i/r/t his comments last night describing
Gov. Romney's stated position on the issue?

Just curious.

Prince
Simply, there would not be today a GM or Chrysler under Romney's proposed managed bankruptcy. With the impact on suppliers, it is likely that Ford would not have survived as well.

There are all types of bankruptcy processes, but basically the intent of a managed bankruptcy is for an entity to discharge it debt and emerge leaner, less leveraged. If that doesn't succeed, then they slide into liquidation which ends the entity.

What Romney wanted was the auto companies to start the managed bankruptcy and rely completely on the private financial sector to provide the liquidity to do that. However, the financial sector was in meltdown mode not seen since the great bank runs early in the Great Depression. Most people were wondering if they were going to be able to get their money back out of the banks; the FDIC gave the general population the confidence to avoid the bank run. However, there was NOTHING like that available for anyone in the private sector to back something like a managed bankruptcy the size needed for the auto industry.

Only the government itself had that ability. Romney knows that, but he will say any lie necessary to win this election and about 1/2 the population is either too stupid to understand that or just don't give a damn.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11279 at 10-23-2012 10:29 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by Cynic Hero '86 View Post
LOL the fact that you regard michael bay of all people as the quintessential "hollywood liberal" shows the extent of teabagger delusion.
Yeah, I don't classify Michael Bay as the "quintessential hollywood liberal" - I just consider him to be a shitty director. I don't have anything against Hollywood actors/actresses being politically left or right as long as they shut the hell up about it. I don't really care what Alec Baldwin has to say about U.S. foreign policy. I do enjoy his acting though (usually). I really don't care what Kurt Russell (on the opposite end of the spectrum) has to say on politics either - just act and keep your mouth shut about politics. I'm not interested in your opinions outside of acting. The same goes for singers as well.

Oh, by the way, Cynic, you'd probably go further in making a point without using "teabaggers" or using "LOL" in a conversation which makes you look like a dumb ass or a 14 year old (or both).

j.p.
Last edited by JDFP; 10-23-2012 at 10:32 PM.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#11280 at 10-23-2012 10:38 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
The most ironic thing in recent years is the way the left constantly spews hate for rich people, corporations, and Wall Street, but they were the ones fully on board with TARP. As soon as you bring it up and point out that the Democrats and Obama were all for it, while House Republicans opposed it, they start coming up with a million excuses for why it was great.
You idiots give the financial sector the knife to hold at everyone's throats and then complain when we had to buy off your idols so they wouldn't slit our throats.

Hard to choose which of you are the bigger shitheads - the ones with the knifes extracting their due or you idiots that gave them (and now want to return them) their instruments of extortion and death.

Unless you're one of those making a million bucks a year, JPT, you're just one of their easily-manipulated sheeple. They thank you.

"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11281 at 10-23-2012 10:43 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
The one bad thing for me in a Romney victory this year is that I'm going to have to help an awful lot of people pack luggage for their trip to wherever it is they go next. I guess that's not necessarily completely negative, exercise does the body good. I just hate that it'll be so damn time consuming to help these folks pack while waving at them as they leave. I might even be nice in holding the door open for them so it doesn't hit them on the ass on the way out.

Hey, with all the folks migrating from Hollywood, we might actually get a resurgence of good film-making again and break away from all these horrible remakes and turn your mind off "blow shit up" explosion Michael Bay travesties. Nah, that's probably being too wishful there.

j.p.
Packing bags and holding doors, well, at least you're already comfortable assuming the position, sheeple.

The elites thank you for your vote.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11282 at 10-23-2012 10:46 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Packing bags and holding doors, well, at least you're already comfortable assuming the position, sheeple.

The elites thank you for your vote.
Eh, not yet. I'm not voting until Saturday - then I can be "thanked".

j.p.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#11283 at 10-23-2012 10:47 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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I was referring to the fact that if you saw any of michael bays movie you would know there is nothing liberal about them. Tea party republicans don't care about 9/11 of the islamist threats that bush alluded to during his terms. Instead they court the most regressive and delusional elements of the electorate. Traitors who think that russia's political order is something we should import here. While they would likely hate each other, tea party republicans have more in common with such fringe figures like noam chomsky and lew rockwell that they do with president bush. I actually would have supported bush's policies if they had been applied competently. Tea party types were spreading fiction like 9/11 truther nonsense before obama was elected when they then turned to birtherism.
Last edited by Cynic Hero '86; 10-23-2012 at 11:02 PM.







Post#11284 at 10-23-2012 10:53 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
Yeah, I don't classify Michael Bay as the "quintessential hollywood liberal" - I just consider him to be a shitty director. I don't have anything against Hollywood actors/actresses being politically left or right as long as they shut the hell up about it. I don't really care what Alec Baldwin has to say about U.S. foreign policy. I do enjoy his acting though (usually). I really don't care what Kurt Russell (on the opposite end of the spectrum) has to say on politics either - just act and keep your mouth shut about politics. I'm not interested in your opinions outside of acting. The same goes for singers as well.

Oh, by the way, Cynic, you'd probably go further in making a point without using "teabaggers" or using "LOL" in a conversation which makes you look like a dumb ass or a 14 year old (or both).

j.p.
Hey sheeple, do you pick up these really insightful 'insights' when you're packing the bags or holding the door for your masters?
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11285 at 10-23-2012 10:53 PM by Cynic Hero '86 [at Upstate New York joined Jul 2006 #posts 1,285]
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Quite frankly the US should have waged total war against syria and iran a long time ago. Obama might do it at some point during a second term. Romney won't, he would be spending more time persecuting blacks, hispanics, immigrants and the middle class and poor than to rise up to the challenge posed by russia and iran.







Post#11286 at 10-23-2012 10:55 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
Eh, not yet. I'm not voting until Saturday - then I can be "thanked".

j.p.
Just get a good grip on those ankles when you bend over.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

Its not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. Its much more akin to printing money. - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11287 at 10-23-2012 10:59 PM by JDFP [at Knoxville, TN. joined Jul 2010 #posts 1,200]
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Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Hey sheeple, do you pick up these really insightful 'insights' when you're packing the bags or holding the door for your masters?
No; I just say to myself: "Man, I hope Playwrite can think of some really asinine comments to make!" - and more times than not, I'm not disappointed. We love listening to Playwrite's asinine jabs here in magic pony land. Maybe you can tell us some good fart jokes next? All we sheeple here love your witty zingers!

j.p.

"And did you get what you wanted from this life, even so? I did. And what did you want? To call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth.‎" -- Raymond Carver


"A
page of good prose remains invincible." -- John Cheever










Post#11288 at 10-23-2012 11:20 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by B Butler View Post
Well, no. The bad guys in the last crisis were worse than the bad guys in this one. Government of the rich, for the rich, by the rich still won't be gassing and burning Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals. Nor with they return to the values of the crisis before that, with minorities in chains serving as out and out slaves.
It would 'only' be a new form of serfdom, probably founded on personal debt that could never be paid off but would be passed down as a perverse inheritance as if genes for sickle-cell anemia. A fellow like Sheldon Adelson could do very well in America while Jewish small businessmen find themselves ruined as trusts and cartels drive them into irrelevance. The super-rich need no middle class except as brutal enforcers, cowed propagandists (preachers and teachers), servants (such as physicians), and such professionals as accountants and engineers.

America now undergoes a class struggle much unlike any that Marx could have ever foreseen -- between the super-rich on one side (big landowners, tycoons, and executives) and the middle class. In good times the super-rich tolerate a middle class that can buy real estate, make investments, establish businesses, and collect desirable stuff. At times the super-rich want to show them who the real bosses are -- so that they must sell off what they got so that they can first keep up appearances (while going deeply into debt, as for student loans) and then then sell their last treasures during a panic for bare survival, at which time they become proles.

Just look at the core support for Barack Obama -- it is heavily the non-white, non-Anglo, non-Christian part of the middle class. It recognizes how much it has to lose.

This doesn't mean government of the rich, for the rich, by the rich isn't a problem. I'd suggest that government of the rich, for the rich, by the rich has been part of many crises. It's a base problem of humankind. Humans strive for territory, resources and dominance. In most any era, the problem might be seen as some individual or group being too successful in fulfilling these drives. Marx might have seen that problem in terms of class struggles. The Enlightenment philosophers might have seen that problem as a lack of equal rights. Religious people might have seen it as the selfish and greedy drifting too far away from God's will.
Of course. Tycoons, executives, and big landowners can be as brutal thugs as Al Capone or Lepke Buchalter. At their worst they have pretensions to superiority that nobody can laugh at, and when they have complete control of the government they can be stopped only by proletarian revolution or apocalyptic war. Just think of Hungary in World War II -- the most vicious antisemites, leaders of the Arrow Cross and Nazi-like organizations, were almost all aristocrats. Hungarian Jews formed much of the middle class, and by dispossessing the Jews and having them carted off to Nazi murder camps those aristocrats could find plenty of 'abandoned property' to be bought cheaply.

Of course antisemitism is not a cornerstone of the American Hard Right, but the middle class is the target of the rapacious desires of a ruling elite that wants everything. Note well that Barack Obama does unusually well not only among the black middle class, but also among the Latino and Asian parts of the middle class. Such people can read the writing as poor white people can't. Poor white people are being used badly and they don't have a clue.

But the core problem is that humans are too human. For long millennia, greed was cost effective. The individuals and groups who out competed the others in the pursuit of territory, resources, wealth, political power and similar prizes simply had more babies than the downtrodden. It was and remains a darwinistic survival of the most vile.
As the Gordon Gecko character in Wall Street put it, "Greed is good". Gain as the result of service to humanity offends few people. Capitalism was unobjectionable when it pioneered new ways of making life easier and fuller. Even at a low level, one must recognize that nobody would ever work in a smelter or a coal mine except out of the desire for gain except under the threat of death. When greed impoverishes multitudes while enriching a few, capitalist greed becomes objectionable. John D. Rockefeller may have had his faults, but he at least brought America and the world energy of unprecedented cheapness. The current 'vulture capitalist' is almost pure vice.

And such is apt to continue to be unless cultures and values systems build in an imperative that there has to be a check on the powerful, that there must be a significant element of the culture that prevents the few from lording over the many.

Democracy was supposed to do this. It has the potential to do this. Still, while money can buy advertising time and media focus, government can be bought. One might not be able to fool all of the people all of the time, but one can fool over half of the people most of the time.
The great hazard is that the checks and balances of our system that wise people imposed upon our political process to prevent the rise of a despotic executive, of a legislature that legislates away the freedom of the people or judicial process that best resembles a lynching are being short-circuited for the advantage of ambitious, ruthless, rapacious people, and judicial process that best resembles a lynching. For two centuries we had political leaders who, even if they knew how to dodge those checks and balances dared not do so. (If anyone wants to know what a system without checks and balances looks like, then look at the old Soviet Union, whose founders believed that 'socialist revolution' would be enough of a guide to good government. In view of the great bloodletting of the Soviet Union, there needed to be checks and balances upon the Party Boss in practice responsible to nobody).

Irresponsible power is the bane of political freedom. Citizens United established irresponsible power for anyone capable of funding an Orwellian propaganda in the form of political campaigns and then flood the airways with such stuff, especially through front groups aligned with a political party that has adopted the agenda. If the chosen pols of someone with deep-pockets funding can get a majority of congress, then the objective of government goes from serving geographic constituents to serving economic constituents who may be hundreds of miles away. Such is government representation of economic interests instead of the People. It is analogous to taking a children's story and turning it into pornography -- even if the characters of the original story are still identifiable. You do not want to take your children to that.



That's one key values shift that's got to be pushed.

But no, this crises's bad guys aren't fascist. They are a distinctly different flavor of ugly.
The villains are particularly ugly in this stage of American history because they are Americans. It was easy for almost all Americans to unite against the Axis Powers who offended every value that Americans cherished. Even those Americans who loved German and Italian culture found Nazism and Italian Fascism particularly loathsome as perversions of the virtues of old and established countries. As for the Confederacy -- the Confederates were largely gentlemen and had only one political vice.

Really, let's grow past the Republicans = Fascists while Democrats = Communists meme. It's bad and it's wrong. Talk real.
The more apt comparison to the American Hard Right may be with the Falangists of Spain nearly 80 years ago. Which part of America is Catalonia and which part of America is Basque Country? It is clear what part of America is the reactionary, traditionalist part that chafes under any attempt to introduce modernity. The geographic divides are sharp.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11289 at 10-24-2012 12:18 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
The one bad thing for me in a Romney victory this year is that I'm going to have to help an awful lot of people pack luggage for their trip to wherever it is they go next. I guess that's not necessarily completely negative, exercise does the body good. I just hate that it'll be so damn time consuming to help these folks pack while waving at them as they leave. I might even be nice in holding the door open for them so it doesn't hit them on the ass on the way out.

Hey, with all the folks migrating from Hollywood, we might actually get a resurgence of good film-making again and break away from all these horrible remakes and turn your mind off "blow shit up" explosion Michael Bay travesties. Nah, that's probably being too wishful there.

j.p.
No, it's you conservative guys that are enabling all this crap, with your philosophy of laissez faire and anything which can make rich guys more money is just fine and dandy. When some of us blue folks leave, the quality of Hollywood will decline still further. Not to mention the quality of everything else.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11290 at 10-24-2012 12:20 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
The most ironic thing in recent years is the way the left constantly spews hate for rich people, corporations, and Wall Street, but they were the ones fully on board with TARP. As soon as you bring it up and point out that the Democrats and Obama were all for it, while House Republicans opposed it, they start coming up with a million excuses for why it was great.
No we don't. The Left wanted to break up the too big to fail banks. Obama went along with your crowd and appointed them into government in order to appease you guys.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11291 at 10-24-2012 12:25 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
For once, I can't argue with you.
I can't argue with him either.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11292 at 10-24-2012 12:27 AM by Seattleblue [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 562]
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But on the other hand, if the government blesses the printed money before it hands it to the rich, it is not laissez faire and therefore remains holy. People earning their own money is simply theft.

It is not class struggle that is happening. It is a societal evolution beyond the supposed need for strongarm masters controlling us all for our own good.

The social contract has long been an excuse for these busybodies, but it is becoming clear with Obama's continued use of murder and torture that there is no salvation in the current system. Democrats are as pure evil as the Republicans who support these crimes against humanity.

Unless and until these parties renounce the power to murder and torture, they remain anti-human and are not worthy to govern. Obama's kill list argues strongly against the idea that Democrats are any damn good at all. They cut and run from their so-called principles the moment they have power, giving the lie to all the words that came before.

And yet this is the beginning of the devolution of power from the almighty state to lower levels of government, and to individuals.

Sucks to be a statist these days. People are not mollified by a good lion mauling or hanging the way they used to be.
Last edited by Seattleblue; 10-24-2012 at 12:35 AM.







Post#11293 at 10-24-2012 12:42 AM by Classic-X'er [at joined Sep 2012 #posts 1,789]
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Quote Originally Posted by JohnMc82 View Post
Yeah but Obama's reaction looked like "Oh really? I'm surprised. OK."

He didn't have all his fans coming to whine about how unfair and mean it was.

I was a little surprised too, just because a lot of states have had similar programs for a really long time, and MA is usually ahead of the curve on education. I'd have thought something similar existed before Romney's administration, but now I'll just have to admit he did something right instead.

It was a little weird that Romney bragged about how great MA schools were since they ranked at the top long before and long after he got there, but hey, at least he didn't completely screw it up! Couple points for Romney there, even if he doesn't know what the Persian Gulf is.
Is Persian Gulf connected to the Mediterranean Sea?







Post#11294 at 10-24-2012 01:25 AM by Dave 89 [at joined Aug 2007 #posts 440]
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I'm seriously doubting it's even worthwhile for me to vote this year. My candidate has no chance of wining the election. I refuse to be a "lesser" of to evils voter. I have yet to see that much true "change" under Obama. Much of his promises including closing Gitmo have been broken. Watching his interview on CNN about the Drone War really makes me question how truthful he has been about the war in the Middle East. His hesitation and uses of filler words while being asked about Drone's was way higher than anyone telling the truth should have.
"The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now with somebody and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives." - Hunter S Thompson

The Empire is Decadent and Depraved







Post#11295 at 10-24-2012 01:53 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Dave 89 View Post
I'm seriously doubting it's even worthwhile for me to vote this year. My candidate has no chance of wining the election. I refuse to be a "lesser" of to evils voter. I have yet to see that much true "change" under Obama. Much of his promises including closing Gitmo have been broken. Watching his interview on CNN about the Drone War really makes me question how truthful he has been about the war in the Middle East. His hesitation and uses of filler words while being asked about Drone's was way higher than anyone telling the truth should have.
While some of Obama's actions are questionable indeed, many of his "failures" like the non-closing of Gitmo can be ascribed to the deliberate obstruction by his opponents. Should these opponents be rewarded again merely for their obstruction, as they have been so often?

Rmoney is really amazing. Same speech over and over. Growth is down, unemployment has stayed too high, so vote for me, and you'll get 12 million new jobs, a balanced budget, and more growth. If somebody asks him how he is going to accomplish this, he just says nothing. Because that's all he has to offer: nothing. Why are so many Americans buying the snake oil he is selling? If people think Obama gave them buyers' remorse, wait until they see what they get after they open the Romney box, and see that there was never anything there.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11296 at 10-24-2012 02:05 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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10-24-2012, 02:05 AM #11296
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
But on the other hand, if the government blesses the printed money before it hands it to the rich, it is not laissez faire and therefore remains holy. People earning their own money is simply theft.

It is not class struggle that is happening. It is a societal evolution beyond the supposed need for strongarm masters controlling us all for our own good.

The social contract has long been an excuse for these busybodies, but it is becoming clear with Obama's continued use of murder and torture that there is no salvation in the current system. Democrats are as pure evil as the Republicans who support these crimes against humanity.

Unless and until these parties renounce the power to murder and torture, they remain anti-human and are not worthy to govern. Obama's kill list argues strongly against the idea that Democrats are any damn good at all. They cut and run from their so-called principles the moment they have power, giving the lie to all the words that came before.

And yet this is the beginning of the devolution of power from the almighty state to lower levels of government, and to individuals.

Sucks to be a statist these days. People are not mollified by a good lion mauling or hanging the way they used to be.
The state does murder and torture. So we should abolish the state. Which would simply allow murder and torture to happen outside the state. I don't think so.

Devolution of power? Maybe. Trust individuals, but not governments? No, anarchy does not work. A better balance; yeah, that would work.

Obama for all his faults accords much better with what I would like to see happen, according to those questionnaires that are available to help people choose a candidate. I can't argue with an 84-11% margin. For you there's no difference, because they both do evil. For me there's a difference, even though they both do evil. And the class struggle is ongoing; the greedy are our masters, not the politicians. Our nation is far from perfect, and I have almost no confidence in Americans that they would "evolve beyond the need" for strong government or embrace perfection; given their absolutely miserable track record. But since I don't live in a swing state, I can vote Green if I choose, and mollify my conscience.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#11297 at 10-24-2012 05:49 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDFP View Post
Skipping over the politics as we'll never agree (although I had a good laugh at the poetic phrase of "dark satanic mills")...
William Blake.

Don't short change Leni Riefenstahl. She basically created contemporary film-making (Eastman Kodak has to create all newly developed cameras and film just for her). The woman was a brilliant film-maker. And if she had lived in a different era or location she would have been as big as Spielberg. As far as pure propaganda goes - I doubt much will ever compare to Triumph des Willens. While I don't happen to subscribe to the political ideology of the film, I don't have to in order to appreciate the complexity and power of that film. Casablanca is incredible - Triumph des Willens or Olympia it is not though. I actually prefer Patton to be honest though as opposed to Casablanca.
The Nazis were excellent at pageantry as a substitute for political give-and-take. Riefenstahl had some brilliant and innovative camera angles perfectly suited to the personality cult. Such extracts as I have seen of Triumph des Willens , either have a chilling effect or -- if deliberately taken out of context, like a scene of shovel-wielding laborers in a military-like formation as extracted in Why We Fight -- can now seem ludicrous. Maybe as a liberal I prefer subtlety in expression, which explains why I love counterpoint in music and consider Impressionism the second-greatest era of painting. The Nazis preferred the primary colors of Wagnerian bombast and found the subtlety of Impressionism "degenerate". I will take Tolkien any day.

There are still some great films being made in the U.S. - but the majority of them are independent films fighting for distribution deals. Hollywood isn't producing most of them. The best film I've probably seen in the last decade is The Way with Martin Sheen and Emilio Estevez - absolutely soul-inspiring film of great depth (an adult version of The Wizard of Oz in many ways). I highly recommend it if you haven't seen it.
I have never seen it. You are right about independent film-makers making the better material, often on small budgets that have little room for special effects.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11298 at 10-24-2012 06:45 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Seattleblue View Post
But on the other hand, if the government blesses the printed money before it hands it to the rich, it is not laissez faire and therefore remains holy. People earning their own money is simply theft.
The American political system, to the extent that was based on the model of New England, was designed for a nation of yeoman farmers, independent tradesmen, and small merchants. Even in the slave-holding South there were no single aristocrats who dominated everyone else (they of course had absolute power mollified only by occasional lapses into Christian morality on their plantations) who could dominate political life as could a pharaoh.

It is not class struggle that is happening. It is a societal evolution beyond the supposed need for strongarm masters controlling us all for our own good.
Yes, it is a class struggle -- but between a plutocratic elite and a combination of the intelligentsia and small-scale entrepreneurs... and the tycoons have been playing the sentiments of undereducated and nearly-destitute white working people who want the middle class brought down to its level in part by replacing high-level education with rote learning of superstition and pseudoscience. Never mind that once the narcissistic and rapacious elites who dominate the Republican Party will bring feudal inequality once they have degraded the middle class into proles or enforcers.

The social contract has long been an excuse for these busybodies, but it is becoming clear with Obama's continued use of murder and torture that there is no salvation in the current system. Democrats are as pure evil as the Republicans who support these crimes against humanity.
In benign times one can allow the perfect to be the enemy of the somewhat-satisfying. In a Crisis one does not have such a luxury. In such times the prospect of the perfect becomes the ally of the unconscionable. The last Crisis Era was the wrong time to overturn the absurd cruelties of Jim Crow; the economy had to be stabilized first, and Hitler had to be defeated. Some times one must choose between a flawed Bruning and someone far worse.

Unless and until these parties renounce the power to murder and torture, they remain anti-human and are not worthy to govern. Obama's kill list argues strongly against the idea that Democrats are any damn good at all. They cut and run from their so-called principles the moment they have power, giving the lie to all the words that came before.
Osama bin Laden had plenty of opportunity to turn himself in at perhaps the British embassy in Islamabad. He would not have been safe from prosecution for 9/11, but he would have been safe from extradition to the United States which would likely have passed a sentence of death upon him. Those associated with al-Qaeda terrorism need to know that they are not safe. Had the 9/11 attack been carried out instead in China, would we Americans have any complaint about the Chinese intelligence agencies tracking down and Chinese special forces whacking someone like Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants?

And yet this is the beginning of the devolution of power from the almighty state to lower levels of government, and to individuals.
Vote Republican thirteen days from today and you only accelerate the devolution such power from the State to either collusive state or local governments or to the giant corporations and their brutal executives. Maybe we end up with corporations getting the power to execute or assassinate strikers and critics or at the least end up with a pure plutocracy responsible only to the ownership elite. "Work at our terms or starve" is an ultimate expression of tyranny.

Sucks to be a statist these days. People are not mollified by a good lion mauling or hanging the way they used to be.
.

Do you realize that the ancient Romans considered their cruel spectacles -- gladiatorial games or casting Christians to the lions -- the epitome of social virtue?

...We are at the stage at which productivity is so high that economic need is no longer a necessity for organizing the economy. But economic need is a perfect tool for giving despotic power to tycoons, executives, and big landowners. To use the terms of Marxist prophecy (flawed as Marx' vision was), the stage at which severe need can be abolished is communism, a stage of history that no 'socialist' state has ever come close to achieving. America has never gone through anything describable as socialism. Our economic elites have nothing to lose if America goes fascist so that America can revert to economic norms of the Gilded Age -- unless of course those elites get us into an apocalyptic war that might put them at risk either of overthrow or being at or near Ground Zero of an atomic detonation.

Class privilege is even more addictive than heroin or cocaine... and similarly destructive.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11299 at 10-24-2012 06:50 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Classic-X'er View Post
Is Persian Gulf connected to the Mediterranean Sea?
With the prospect of anthropogenic global warming they could conceivably share the same infernal climate. Just think of Seville, Palermo, Athens, and Tel Aviv having the climate of Dhahran, Saudi Arabia (headquarters of Aramco).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11300 at 10-24-2012 08:00 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
While some of Obama's actions are questionable indeed, many of his "failures" like the non-closing of Gitmo can be ascribed to the deliberate obstruction by his opponents. Should these opponents be rewarded again merely for their obstruction, as they have been so often?
At the least their campaign funds are getting rewarded. All that they need do is obey the lobbyists. Nice work for a vain person with no conscience!

Rmoney is really amazing. Same speech over and over. Growth is down, unemployment has stayed too high, so vote for me, and you'll get 12 million new jobs, a balanced budget, and more growth. If somebody asks him how he is going to accomplish this, he just says nothing. Because that's all he has to offer: nothing. Why are so many Americans buying the snake oil he is selling? If people think Obama gave them buyers' remorse, wait until they see what they get after they open the Romney box, and see that there was never anything there.
... because most political discourse is reduced to soundbites just to fit the thirty-second political ad. Many people have roughly that attention span for politics. If a slogan can fit on a T-shirt or a bumper sticker it is just long enough. Solutions for big problems are rarely simple.


A hint: The Federalist Papers does not consist of soundbites.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 10-24-2012 at 08:26 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
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