Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: 2012 Elections - Page 463







Post#11551 at 10-28-2012 11:13 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
10-28-2012, 11:13 AM #11551
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Oh yes.
Anyone who thinks that "we be 4T" means that an age of post racial rationalism is upon us is likely to be very disappointed over the next 10 to 15 years.
At the end of the 3T we had scorpions in our national soul. Those scorpions have only become more venomous and more likely to sting.

A 4T no more solves our problems than weather alone grows our crops that we must first sow. A 4T forces even Great Powers to address their flaws, weaknesses, and depravities. We will be compelled to change some of our ways if we are to come out of it better than we came in. If we get worse, then this 4T can be an unmitigated disaster at the end of which we are at the mercy of foreign occupiers or some revolutionary clique.

We Americans ended the last Crisis as the richest of all countries, the country that could dominate the country as the default market and producer for just about everything. We even had an educational system that the rest of the world envied. World War II had left much of the rest of the world with shattered industries and had forced millions of people from consumption-based economies back to survival-based agriculture. Many countries had to rebuild their shattered manufacturing and housing stock when the only sure thing was their agriculture. We Americans needed 'only' return civilian business back from war production to peacetime production.

Other countries caught up with us. If a small country like Denmark or Belgium, then that left us in much the same condition. If it was a bigger country like Japan or West Germany, at least we could compete on sheer volume. Production of consumer goods with improving technology that includes doing as well lesser material use is a good thing -- portable transistor radios instead of large table-top radios. In the age of early capitalism, Marx could call religion the opiate of the masses. Now what passes as an opiate is consumerism.

What we can't get away with is resource depletion, and the most obvious resource to deplete is energy. All fossil fuels imply the degradation of the environment for their extraction whether petroleum, coal, or natural gas, let alone the debasement of the air that we breathe. Maybe we could get away with the hedonistic car-based culture of American Graffiti when oil flowed more reliably from oil fields in Texas and Oklahoma than did water in those parts. That is over. The muscle cars and hot rods are now museum pieces. The cars that we now have are bland and functional... and the next 1T is not going to have people turning old Honda Accord vehicles into hot rods by replacing the small engines with giant V-8s as they did with relic vehicles of the 1920s and 1930s around 1960.

We are going to have to realize that countries like China, Russia, and India that used to be minor economic powers are going to approach us in consumption of consumer goods -- and energy. The American economy will no longer be the boss, and we Americans will have to adapt. Just as the last 3T offered attractive solutions that could only fail -- like the corrupt economic boom that failed catastrophically -- so will this 4T. We are going to be offered sacrifices devoid of any reward for most people but great rewards for a select few. We are going to find the temptation of economic power -- control of captive markets, raw materials, and cheap labor -- and if we do that we could endure much the same hardships -- ultimately self-inflicted -- that the Italians, Germans, and Japanese endured in the mid-1940s. We may find millenarian cults offering eternal bliss in return for unrelieved suffering in this world.

We need to change some of our ways. Our economic elites have become as amoral as hustlers on the street because they have become base in their desires. For those who wield power over us who can be their victims one must expect better than the lusts for sex, bureaucratic power, material gain and comfort, and insulation from the harsh realities that they inflict upon the rest of us. The neocon pols and 'thinkers' enable the worst in such people who can only exploit us. Such behavior comes to an end one way or another -- through more social justice now or through the annihilation of such elites in war or revolution. The long-term solution begins in early education that inculcates civic values in children of all origins, including class. A 4T requires shared hardships and sacrifices if it is to go well.

One sure way for America to fail is for us Americans to allow America to become a militaristic plutocracy -- and we well know which side of the political spectrum that is on.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11552 at 10-28-2012 12:22 PM by JustPassingThrough [at joined Dec 2006 #posts 5,196]
---
10-28-2012, 12:22 PM #11552
Join Date
Dec 2006
Posts
5,196

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
I was really commenting on imagining a world where a poll can be used to determine if someone felt a certain way(had a certain belief system) but they were unconscious to it. I want to see this great test. The creator of it is from Stanford. And AP created the Poll Questions and is reporting the results. That's really weird to me. Stanford and The AP. Weird.

Prince
It's Orwellian, is what it is.
"I see you got your fist out, say your peace and get out. Yeah I get the gist of it, but it's alright." - Jerry Garcia, 1987







Post#11553 at 10-28-2012 03:20 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
10-28-2012, 03:20 PM #11553
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by princeofcats67 View Post
I was really commenting on imagining a world where a poll can be used to determine if someone felt a certain way(had a certain belief system) but they were unconscious to it. I want to see this great test. The creator of it is from Stanford. And AP created the Poll Questions and is reporting the results. That's really weird to me. Stanford and The AP. Weird.

Prince
People could be very prejudiced toward most black people, especially in certain aspects of life, as in "Would you like your daughter to marry one?" and have no qualms about voting for Barack Obama, who is poses no such "threat".
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11554 at 10-28-2012 05:13 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 05:13 PM #11554
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
http://news.investors.com/100312-627...ny.aspx?p=full


-As I've covered before, Congresscritter Frank was the chair of the House's Finance Committee, responsibel for the financial debacle:

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

...even the NYT figured that out as early as 1999:

[COLOR=#ff0000][COLOR=#000000]

...I hope Playdude can put two and two together now.
We seem to be dealing with two problems here. First, you're continuing to add 2 plus 2 and coming up with bullshit. Second, your apparent memory deficiency

On this thread alone, we have debunked the Barney, Freddie/Fannie, CRA bullshit -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...015#post443015

which of course refers readers to one of your more well-known Glick Schticks -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...889#post377889

Glickism #1 - Fannie, Freddie and the CRA did it!
but the funny kicker that makes obvious your residency in Magic Pony land -

Since the real estate meltdown was global with much worst consequences in places like Spain and Ireland, how was it that Fannie/Freddie or the CRA caused those meltdowns? Last I checked, those things had nothing to do with foreign real estate markets. It must have been magic ponies? But let's see if JPT or Glick can explain that mechanism; it should be fun.

Moving along past that tragedy to another reason why people should pity you -

Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
I just debunked his "Marine BS",

Your 'debunking' of other posters' military service has become a Zombie lie; it is therefore risen to the level of a ”Glick Schtick.” Its been a while, but we have a new Glick Schtick now recorded and taken down here -

http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...072#post449072

Glickism #4 -"Glick's Internet claim of military service is valid, your claim is not"
- providing easy and quick reference and debunking should your zombie appear again.

Thanks for making us feel better about ourselves just from us not being you.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11555 at 10-28-2012 05:37 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 05:37 PM #11555
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I see you are totally ignorant about how the 1% messes with people's heads. They have honed this stuff into a science over the last 90 years since Edward Bernays.
That's funny, telling me I'm ignorant of what the 1% are capable. You forget where I live.

The real difference is they don't F with my head, and I don't excuse those whose with heads that allow the 1% to F with.

I fool you once, shame on me; I fool you over and over and over again, shame on you. Period.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11556 at 10-28-2012 05:40 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 05:40 PM #11556
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
...The fact that the system you live under is designed to breed monsters...
This makes clear your preference for living in magic pony land - you're a clown.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11557 at 10-28-2012 05:51 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 05:51 PM #11557
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Mole hills and moutains

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Obama didn't and doesn't deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. He has, as some here have pointed out, expanded the Bush tactics.
Just exactly where has Obama started two wars; one at least justified with outright lies???. Where has Obama put a couple hundred thousand boots on the ground and killed 10s if not 100s of thousands of people???


This is really magic pony land stuf, Debsf.

Like I said, the big silver lining to a Romney presidency would be to teach you all the reflection of "a lesser evil." That would be "greater evil" and apparently, even with the 8 years of Bush, my friends on the far Left still don't have a clue or have very short memories.

Yeessh!
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11558 at 10-28-2012 05:58 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 05:58 PM #11558
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
There's nothing that oppresses women more than not being able to have sex without consequences
Why not? It's none of your damn business anyway.

Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
and kill their own children.
And what woman has? If you know of one, let the authorities know.

If you are talking about a woman's fetus, that her problem and not your belief system. You have no right to force your belief system onto someone else. That's called slavery and about 500,000 people killed each other 150 years ago to get rid of it.

If this really bothers you, go suck an egg.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11559 at 10-28-2012 06:02 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 06:02 PM #11559
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I have never suggested electing Romney. What I have consistently tried to do, is hold up the dirty rotten broken political system where both sides of the aisle are beholding to corporate power. In most instances, our side only wants to point out the major flaws of the other. This blinds us to how our side is also a large part of our democracy being dismantled. This blindness is fueling our demise.

The need for political change is very real. And change cannot happen until we, as Americans, decide to expect more from our country and those who are supposed to represent us. Instead, Obama has been given every excuse in the book for his participation in the problems that deeply affect our society. That is called enabling.

Change has always started with the people, not corporate owned politicians.
Yea, like that's real helpful right now.

A guy named Ralph Nader believe that in 2000 and as a result we got George Bush who didn't pay any attention to al Qaeda, invaded Iraq, started the drone program and the torture program.

Yea, let's all do the time warp again.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11560 at 10-28-2012 06:40 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 06:40 PM #11560
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Yea, like that's real helpful right now.

A guy named Ralph Nader believe that in 2000 and as a result we got George Bush who didn't pay any attention to al Qaeda, invaded Iraq, started the drone program and the torture program.

Yea, let's all do the time warp again.

The Nader losing the election for Gore is a myth. Now *that's* living in the land of rainbow ponies.

We have short memories, don't we? Think about the lost chads and supreme court. Then recall how Gore didn't even win his own state. It's easier to blame someone who actually has the citizen's interest in mind than own the fact that Gore lost the election because he was a Bush lite. Remember how he agreed with Bush in most of the debating?

Amazing how when we Democrats lose, there usually has to be a scapegoat. I wonder who we will blame if Obama loses?
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11561 at 10-28-2012 06:51 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 06:51 PM #11561
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
Just exactly where has Obama started two wars; one at least justified with outright lies???. Where has Obama put a couple hundred thousand boots on the ground and killed 10s if not 100s of thousands of people???


This is really magic pony land stuf, Debsf.
Here's some facts for you.

Despite winning office based on an anti-war “change” platform, President Barack Obama’s militarization of foreign policy has dwarfed the imperialism of George W. Bush and his neocon cabal, with no end in sight to the escalation of America’s national security state, as Obama embraces and expands upon the Bush credo of “preventive war”.

Obama was supposed to usher in an era of “smart power”, promising to keep America out of “stupid” wars, only to engage in wars of “necessity” as opposed to those of “choice.” Yet his administration will spend approximately$895 billion on defense in 2011, 40% more than the Bush administration spent at its peak in 2008.

The U.S. now spends nearly as much on military might as the rest of the world combined, according to the Stockholm International Peace Institute - and 6 times more than the country with the second highest budget, China. It’s only fair to wonder if all line items buried within the behemoth security outlay meet Obama’s standard of necessity - and not something more sinister.

The U.S. currently has, at least, 1,000 bases around the world, many of which are Cold War legacy sites – as if pulling out of Germany will tempt Russia to spread its sphere of influence. A sentiment succintly captured by Andrew Bacevich in his book Washington Rules:

This global military presence is ostensibly essential to the defense of American freedom even in places where the actual threat to American freedom is oblique or imaginary.

During his first two years in office Obama had authorized nearly four times as many drone strikes as Bush did during his entire two terms. This, despite the fact the former constitutional law professor is likely cognizant the drone attacks violate international law. Not to mention the fact he’s been unable to identify viable alternatives to the interrogation rooms and military tribunals at Guantanamo.

http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...bal-militarism
Last edited by Deb C; 10-28-2012 at 07:08 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11562 at 10-28-2012 07:15 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 07:15 PM #11562
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Barack Obama’s war on terror is nastier and less ethical than George W Bush’s


[QUOTE]Arguably, the Obama administration has shown less conscience than that of George W Bush. To be sure, Bush created the concept of the War on Terror and the institutional machinery to make it happen: the Patriot Act, mass detention at Guantanamo etc. But we now know that the administration had plenty of internal debates about how ethical all this was, driven by the libertarian/constitutionalist streak buried deep within the Republican soul.

But while Bush tortured foreign soldiers, Obama has killed American citizens. He has expanded the scope of the war by launching strikes into sovereign territories to massacre communities that pose a largely existential threat to the US. When the Prez signed the National Defense Authorization Act, he extended he right to indefinitely detain to US citizens. One whistleblower at the NSA recently asserted that Obama is, “Worse than Bush. I have to say that. I actually voted for Obama. It’s all rhetoric for me now. As Americans we were hoodwinked.

George W Bush promised to destroy global Islamo-fascism but, in practical terms, he became stuck in Iraq. His struggle to build a democracy there – although foolhardy and falsely justified – almost looks moral compared to the next stage in the War on Terror that Obama has taken American to. He is fighting terror with terror, even against US citizens. But as long as he is “comfortable” about that decision, what have his subjects to fear?[/QUOTE]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...eorge-w-bushs/
Last edited by Deb C; 10-28-2012 at 07:30 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11563 at 10-28-2012 09:19 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
10-28-2012, 09:19 PM #11563
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

This is second hand, so take it with a grain of salt. Here goes....

My boyfriend is from Battle Creek, Michigan, and he still has family there. His sister reported seeing a car bumper sticker that said "Don't re-nig. Vote Romney".

Afterward. I decided to see if I could google the slogan and see what came up. My boyfriend's sister's tale seems much less incredible.




P.P.S. My boyfriend is black.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#11564 at 10-28-2012 09:30 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 09:30 PM #11564
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post

Like I said, the big silver lining to a Romney presidency would be to teach you all the reflection of "a lesser evil." That would be "greater evil" and apparently, even with the 8 years of Bush, my friends on the far Left still don't have a clue or have very short memories.
I still ponder how anyone can see me as far Left. While I profess to be a progressive, I'm not an Anarchist. Perhaps the Left has gone so far to the right that we progressives now look radical. Maybe people who consider themselves centrists, are actually way to the right of our parent's and their parent's Democratic party.

Perhaps the frog in boiling water analogy applies: If you drop a frog into boiling water he jumps right out. If you put a frog in cool water, then gradually heat the water to boiling, he won’t jump out ... That is what has happened to the Democratic party.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11565 at 10-28-2012 10:28 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
10-28-2012, 10:28 PM #11565
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
This is second hand, so take it with a grain of salt. Here goes....

My boyfriend is from Battle Creek, Michigan, and he still has family there. His sister reported seeing a car bumper sticker that said "Don't re-nig. Vote Romney".

Afterward. I decided to see if I could google the slogan and see what came up. My boyfriend's sister's tale seems much less incredible.




P.P.S. My boyfriend is black.
Oh, Yuck, that sticker almost makes me feel ill!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11566 at 10-28-2012 10:29 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 10:29 PM #11566
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
The Nader losing the election for Gore is a myth. Now *that's* living in the land of rainbow ponies.

We have short memories, don't we? Think about the lost chads and supreme court. Then recall how Gore didn't even win his own state. It's easier to blame someone who actually has the citizen's interest in mind than own the fact that Gore lost the election because he was a Bush lite. Remember how he agreed with Bush in most of the debating?

Amazing how when we Democrats lose, there usually has to be a scapegoat. I wonder who we will blame if Obama loses?
Where are your facts for such a brazen statement?

Bush beat Gore (based on the SCOTUS outcome) by less than 500 votes; Nader got nearly 100,000 votes.

Are you trying to say that less than 0.1% of those 100,000 votes would not have voted for Gore if Nader had not been on the ballot???

Where do you come up with this stuff???
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11567 at 10-28-2012 10:32 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 10:32 PM #11567
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post

Where do you come up with this stuff???
Magic pony land, of course.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11568 at 10-28-2012 10:36 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 10:36 PM #11568
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Here's some facts for you.

Despite winning office based on an anti-war “change” platform, President Barack Obama’s militarization of foreign policy has dwarfed the imperialism of George W. Bush and his neocon cabal, with no end in sight to the escalation of America’s national security state, as Obama embraces and expands upon the Bush credo of “preventive war”.

Obama was supposed to usher in an era of “smart power”, promising to keep America out of “stupid” wars, only to engage in wars of “necessity” as opposed to those of “choice.” Yet his administration will spend approximately$895 billion on defense in 2011, 40% more than the Bush administration spent at its peak in 2008.

The U.S. now spends nearly as much on military might as the rest of the world combined, according to the Stockholm International Peace Institute - and 6 times more than the country with the second highest budget, China. It’s only fair to wonder if all line items buried within the behemoth security outlay meet Obama’s standard of necessity - and not something more sinister.

The U.S. currently has, at least, 1,000 bases around the world, many of which are Cold War legacy sites – as if pulling out of Germany will tempt Russia to spread its sphere of influence. A sentiment succintly captured by Andrew Bacevich in his book Washington Rules:

This global military presence is ostensibly essential to the defense of American freedom even in places where the actual threat to American freedom is oblique or imaginary.

During his first two years in office Obama had authorized nearly four times as many drone strikes as Bush did during his entire two terms. This, despite the fact the former constitutional law professor is likely cognizant the drone attacks violate international law. Not to mention the fact he’s been unable to identify viable alternatives to the interrogation rooms and military tribunals at Guantanamo.

http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...bal-militarism
You keep wanting to compare mole hills to mountains. I'm not trying to dismiss your mole hills, I'm just trying to give you some perspective on how devastating actual wars are; which should be obvious to anyone more interested in reality than just spewing something, anything, against the president.

You have legitimate complaints, but you greatly discredit them with nonsense of not only comparing actual wars to number of military bases but comparing Obama to Bush. There not on the same planet, let alone the same ball park. Again, the one silver lining to a Romney win would be one big slap upside the head with a 2x4 of people who actually believe otherwise.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11569 at 10-28-2012 10:42 PM by playwrite [at NYC joined Jul 2005 #posts 10,443]
---
10-28-2012, 10:42 PM #11569
Join Date
Jul 2005
Location
NYC
Posts
10,443

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
I still ponder how anyone can see me as far Left. While I profess to be a progressive, I'm not an Anarchist. Perhaps the Left has gone so far to the right that we progressives now look radical. Maybe people who consider themselves centrists, are actually way to the right of our parent's and their parent's Democratic party.

Perhaps the frog in boiling water analogy applies: If you drop a frog into boiling water he jumps right out. If you put a frog in cool water, then gradually heat the water to boiling, he won’t jump out ... That is what has happened to the Democratic party.
The Democratic Party took us into WW1, WW2, the Korean War and the Viet Nam war - all of which make the Afghan war and the Invasion of Iraq relatively pretty piddling things. What previous Democrats have done make Obama look like a peace freak in comparison.
"The Devil enters the prompter's box and the play is ready to start" - R. Service

“It’s not tax money. The banks have accounts with the Fed … so, to lend to a bank, we simply use the computer to mark up the size of the account that they have with the Fed. It’s much more akin to printing money.” - B.Bernanke


"Keep your filthy hands off my guns while I decide what you can & can't do with your uterus" - Sarah Silverman

If you meet a magic pony on the road, kill it. - Playwrite







Post#11570 at 10-28-2012 10:49 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
10-28-2012, 10:49 PM #11570
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

The question still remains, why didn't Gore win his home state? I mean Clinton had no problem winning both his native Arkansas and Gore's Tennessee, but Gore couldn't? I mean only three presidents have won without winning their "home" state: Nixon (a technicality since his home state became NY after he moved there from CA), James K. Polk & Woodrow Wilson. Out of the fifty-some presidents, only three have won the election and lost their home states--I'd say that it's pretty good odds if you lose your home state, you lose the election.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#11571 at 10-28-2012 10:57 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 10:57 PM #11571
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post

You have legitimate complaints, but you greatly discredit them with nonsense of not only comparing actual wars to number of military bases but comparing Obama to Bush. There not on the same planet, let alone the same ball park. Again, the one silver lining to a Romney win would be one big slap upside the head with a 2x4 of people who actually believe otherwise.
This is not just about military bases, it's about killing innocent people and permanent war.

I repeat:

During his first two years in office Obama had authorized nearly four times as many drone strikes as Bush did during his entiretwo terms. This, despite the fact the former constitutional law professor is likely cognizant the drone attacks violate international law. Not to mention the fact he’s been unable to identify viable alternatives to the interrogation rooms and military tribunals at Guantanamo.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11572 at 10-28-2012 10:58 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
10-28-2012, 10:58 PM #11572
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Mourdock

Indiana.

Quote Originally Posted by the atlantic.com



Mitt Romney and Richard Mourdock are doubtless both hoping we're nearing the end of the news cycle in which the Indiana U.S. Senate candidate's remarks that pregnancies from rape are "something that God intended to happen" exploded into the national conversation. But if Democrats have any say in the matter, that won't be the case, as the president and his campaign have highlighted the remarks repeatedly in an attempt to create a wedge issue for women voters 11 days before an election that could be decided by the size of the gender gap...


...The Romney campaign has tried to distance itself from the Indiana conservative without alienating its own base, which has left it in the awkward position of disavowing Mourdock's views without in any way stepping away from him. "Gov. Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock, and Mr. Mourdock's comments do not reflect Gov. Romney's views," Romney spokesperson Andrea Saul said. "We disagree on the policy regarding exceptions for rape and incest
But what matters above all else is who gets on the Supreme Court.







Post#11573 at 10-28-2012 11:00 PM by Deb C [at joined Aug 2004 #posts 6,099]
---
10-28-2012, 11:00 PM #11573
Join Date
Aug 2004
Posts
6,099

Debunking the myth about Ralph Nader

Gore supported NAFTA, and pushed WTO/China legislation. Under Clinton, Gore environmentalists got the con job and the derailment of Kyoto. The working poor got welfare reform. Labor got free trade. And Iraqi kids got deadly sanctions. (Thousands of babies and children died from Clinton's sanctions.) Those are just a few reasons he lost.

From a CounterPunch article:


Here are just a few of the actual facts:

* A Progressive Review study of poll results throughout the campaign found no correlation between Bush’s percentage change and that of Nader except in July and August when the change was minimal.

* For example, in September of 2000, Gore’s average poll result went up 7.5 points over August, Nader’s only declined by one point. Similarly, in November, Gore’s average poll tally declined 5.7 points but Nader’s only went up 0.8 points.

* In Florida, it was also true. In nine successive surveys in which Nader pulled only two or three points, Gore’s total varied by seven points. As late as two weeks before the election, Gore was ahead by as much as seven to ten points.

* As Michael Eisencher reported in Z Magazine, 20% of all Democratic voters, 12% of all self-identified liberal voters, 39% of all women voters, 44% of all seniors, one-third of all voters earning under $20,000 per year and 42% of those earning $20-30,000 annually, and 31% of all voting union members cast their ballots for Bush.

* According to exit polling, those who voted for Nader were disproportionately under 30, independent, first time voters, formerly Perot voters, and of no organized religion. Sixty-two percent of Nader’s voters were Republicans, independents, third-party voters and nonvoters. In other words, many of his voters did not naturally belong o the Democratic party.

* The public had a cynical view of both major candidates with 41% believing that both would say anything to win votes. Barely half considered either major candidate honest and trustworthy. And an astounding 51% had reservations about their own vote.

* Perhaps the most important, but seldom mentioned, factor in the outcome was the impact of the Clinton scandals. 68% of voters thought Clinton would go down in history more for his scandals than for his leadership. 44% said that the scandals were somewhat to very important and 57% thought the country to be on the wrong moral track.

* In short, the individual who did the most harm to Gore (aside from himself) was Bill Clinton. If Gore had distanced himself from the Clinton moral miasma he would probably be president today.

* Kevin Zeese points out that had Nader not run, Bush would have won by more in Florida. CNN’s exit poll showed Bush at 49% and Gore at 47%, with two percent not voting in a hypothetical Nader-less Florida race.

* Gore lost his home state of Tennessee, Bill Clinton’s Arkansas and traditionally Democratic West Virginia; with any one of these, Gore would have won.

* Nine million Democrats voted for Bush, and less than half of the three million Nader voters were Democrats.
Zeese also notes, "The Democrats lost the 2002 congressional elections, the California and New York governorships, and many state legislatures throughout the country."

Surely Nader is not to blame for those defeats.
Last edited by Deb C; 10-28-2012 at 11:04 PM.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a







Post#11574 at 10-29-2012 01:00 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
10-29-2012, 01:00 AM #11574
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Looks like Romney is so desperate that his campaign workers are resorting to using Photoshop to make the crowds look larger, and they did a horrible, obvious job, too.



The overlapping lamps? A wall that looks like something out of an M C Escher print? Supports that go nowhere -- and worse, fade into thin air, suggesting again an M C Escher print? Passages distributed unevenly? Catwalks that don't quite meet or, worse, go nowhere?

Heck, the Romney campaign could at least have learned some airbrushing skills well suited to habitual liars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vo...lai_Yezhov.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Vanishes_2.jpg

(Not that the world was any worse off due to the disappearance of such a murderer).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#11575 at 10-29-2012 01:51 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
---
10-29-2012, 01:51 AM #11575
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
San Jose CA
Posts
22,504

Quote Originally Posted by Deb C View Post
Barack Obama’s war on terror is nastier and less ethical than George W Bush’s


[QUOTE]Arguably, the Obama administration has shown less conscience than that of George W Bush. To be sure, Bush created the concept of the War on Terror and the institutional machinery to make it happen: the Patriot Act, mass detention at Guantanamo etc. But we now know that the administration had plenty of internal debates about how ethical all this was, driven by the libertarian/constitutionalist streak buried deep within the Republican soul.

But while Bush tortured foreign soldiers, Obama has killed American citizens. He has expanded the scope of the war by launching strikes into sovereign territories to massacre communities that pose a largely existential threat to the US. When the Prez signed the National Defense Authorization Act, he extended he right to indefinitely detain to US citizens. One whistleblower at the NSA recently asserted that Obama is, “Worse than Bush. I have to say that. I actually voted for Obama. It’s all rhetoric for me now. As Americans we were hoodwinked.

[SIZE=2]George W Bush promised to destroy global Islamo-fascism but, in practical terms, he became stuck in Iraq. His struggle to build a democracy there – although foolhardy and falsely justified – almost looks moral compared to the next stage in the War on Terror that Obama has taken American to. He is fighting terror with terror, even against US citizens. But as long as he is “comfortable” about that decision, what have his subjects to fear?

No, Bush started a war that didn't need to be started at all. The death toll from Bush's wars were much much higher, and those killed had posed no threat whatsoever to the United States. Bush established torture and abuse, and justified it with policies and the false notion that 9-11 began a new era of foreign policy of aggression by the USA.

Those killed in Pakistan with drone attacks, were part of a group that threatened the United States. I don't approve of drone strikes, or air attacks generally. But at least under Obama, they were aimed at the right target.

If we don't want our presidents ordering drone attacks with impunity, or supporting detentions without trial, then it is up to us to speak out. If we don't, they are our fault, not Obama's. He is doing it because he knows he has our support in order to "keep the American people safe." If he didn't have that support, he wouldn't do it. I gave you the address to write him. Are you writing him? Does it do any good to argue with him here?

If we don't want someone in office who will take us back to the warmongering that got us into the mess Obama is dealing with, and trying to get us out of, (both economically and in foreign affairs), then it is best to oppose that someone (Romney) now. If you can't support Obama, then support Stein or someone else. But I for one am not going to attack Obama now, and I support him in some ways at least. His victory is essential; we absolutely can NEVER afford another Republican administration, ever again. Any Republican elected to any office, is a tragedy. For what they have done, and for the complete and utter nonsense they stand for, they deserve to be sent home for good. They are not even the party they used to be, and they will never be so again.

We were not "hoodwincked." He said from the beginning he was going to end the war in Iraq, and fight the right enemy in Afghanistan. It was no surprise that he has gone after the terrorists with more determination than Bush did. If you're going to fight a war, you have to fight it strongly. Bush never really cared about keeping the American people safe at all. He started the wars he wanted to start, to benefit himself and his buddies. He fought the wrong war. There wouldn't be an Afghan-NATO war at all now if Bush hadn't diverted his obedient military into the wrong war for so long. He never even put troops on the ground to fight the enemy that attacked us. He let their leader get away; Obama caught him. I don't know if he should have been killed or not, but I am glad they got him. It was a very well-executed move, and it helped keep us safe.

The wrong candidate actually said something right in the debate (though I'm sure he doesn't believe it), when he said we can't kill our way out of this threat. I ask Obama to step up the efforts to help the people in that region to improve their lives and gain more of their rights. Not by killing, but by aid and education.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 10-29-2012 at 01:58 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece
-----------------------------------------