Originally Posted by Aramea

Here is one of the few times where I am in agreement with you, JPT. The US has done a good job of dialing down the casualties in wars. Zero is much better, but let's give credit, where due.

I will part ways with you on one thing - aborted fetuses are not state-sanctioned deaths, they are the direct choice of the mother (sometimes with the father) to terminate a pregnancy.

If you assume that 90 percent of abortions are first trimester, that means 45 million aborted embryos and 5 million aborted fetuses. I personally do not consider an embryo to be a "baby". When I miscarried at 8 weeks back in 1993, there was no funeral or anything for the cells I was carrying which stopped dividing.

Amazing what a crisis can do to bring people together.

Originally Posted by Deb C

"Silence in the face of injustice is complicity with the oppressor." Nelson Mandela

First, you need an oppressor that rates as one. The GOP puts on a happy face, and says all the right things. When criticized, they act the part of the wounded hero ... brought low while trying to do the right thing.

As long as that works, the more strenuous the opposition, the more likley it will backfire. Look at the results this year. We have a politician who has said polar opposite things in close proximity to each other, yet he gets away with it - challenged or not. The only reason he'll lose is the shifting demographics. Let them shift awhile. When the balance point moves enough, the dynamic will reverse. When that happens, the pendulum moves to the left, unitl it hits the next demographic wall ... in 40 years or so.

I appreciate you frustration, and I've been where you are. I've just come to the conclusion that there is a range of movement we can accomplish. When we push outside it, the outside pushes back.

Originally Posted by Aramea

Here is one of the few times where I am in agreement with you, JPT. The US has done a good job of dialing down the casualties in wars. Zero is much better, but let's give credit, where due.

I will part ways with you on one thing - aborted fetuses are not state-sanctioned deaths, they are the direct choice of the mother (sometimes with the father) to terminate a pregnancy.

I agree, and the data on abortions is closer to 800,000 a year ... roughly 1 in 5 pregnancies. That's far too many, but let's be accurate.

Unfortunately, there is no direct way to determine how many are the result of medical issues, like tubal pregnancies or the grossly conpromised health of the fetus, and how many for other reasons ... not that it is anyones' business other than the one's directly involved.

Originally Posted by Aramea

Here is one of the few times where I am in agreement with you, JPT. The US has done a good job of dialing down the casualties in wars. Zero is much better, but let's give credit, where due.

I will part ways with you on one thing - aborted fetuses are not state-sanctioned deaths, they are the direct choice of the mother (sometimes with the father) to terminate a pregnancy.

Well said. Two thumbs up.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

I couldn't make the case against WW2, it is too strong. I think we actually did everything we could to stay out of it while trying to avoid even indirectly helping the aggressors. I will go even further and make the extremely bold claim that the atomic bomb probably saved millions of lives. The conventional firebombing campaign we had over Tokyo and the purges by Japanese forces on the mainland were adding up very quickly, and the choice to go nuclear was probably the fastest way to stop the bleeding on all sides. Estimates of an amphibious invasion expected five million Japanese citizens & soldiers to die, as well as another million American soldiers.

The Civil War? That was pretty awful all around. It was the most horrific loss of American life and it never should have happened. Slavery shouldn't have happened either, but the Union still had legalized slavery even after the Emancipation Proclamation. So I don't buy the simplification that it was all about slavery, and I don't think the large-scale slaughter that occurred was some kind of destined atonement for our nation's original sins. It was more like we screwed up, and those screw-ups just kept compounding until it climaxed in the biggest national screw-up of all.



Here's the thing: America isn't always right and it isn't always wrong either. Internally, as a people, we can disagree on what is right and wrong and try to work it out.

Personally, I don't even see abortion as relevant, except as a campaign issue. In 30 years - from Reagan to Bush to Bush again - I've never seen the Republicans make a real attempt at changing Roe v. Wade. They talk about it a lot around election season, but for all the presidencies and Congressional majorities and Supreme Court nominations there hasn't been one single coordinated effort to change the status quo.

The government also doesn't force anyone to have an abortion. So if you don't like abortion... don't have one! Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry another guy! But if the issues directly don't apply to you, why stand against anothers' right to be different or to have a different belief system?

Isn't that kind of like someone who has never held a gun deciding whether or not you have a right to own one?

Rights are never about making decisions for other people because you think their choices are wrong. We can only truly be accountable and responsible for ourselves, and that is a theme that reverberates in many religious and secular philosophical traditions.

Another awesome 2-thumbs up post.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

First, you need an oppressor that rates as one. The GOP puts on a happy face, and says all the right things. When criticized, they act the part of the wounded hero ... brought low while trying to do the right thing.

As long as that works, the more strenuous the opposition, the more likley it will backfire. Look at the results this year. We have a politician who has said polar opposite things in close proximity to each other, yet he gets away with it - challenged or not.

And they get away with it because right wing thank tanks have invested in understand how the human brain processes infomation for over 30 years.
George Lakeoff has done a lot of work in exposing how this works.
And the hero meme is a great example of how this works. See, our brains process infomation based on patterns. An heroic story has a basic plot to be followed. First a condition needing a hero as to exist. IOW, someone or something needs to be rescued. The hero rides in on a white horse, or more likely a black open topped lemo. and offers relief to the oppressed.
And it always gets presented that way. "Tax relief", "regulation relief" --words matter. Our brains hear a word like relief and the natural tendency is to wish to relieve the oppressed. Thus if taxes are presented not as a mutual cost in which we relieve ourselves of problems in those things like protection-in many forms such as military defense, unemployment insurance, social security and environmental ect.-in which the cost is too great for the individual to bear alone bur rather as an imposition by a distant and powerful force that is seemingly unaccountable even in election season, then the need for the hero to relieve the horrid burden is seen as good.

And that's a big part of the reason why many working people continue to vote against their economic interests. The right has a decades old advantege in knowing how to use words to sell a theme that our brains are wired by evolution to receive.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Amazing what a crisis can do to bring people together.

It is going to be interesting to see how this new bro-mance works out particularly with the now-jilted Mittens.

If Mittens wins, he'll likely kiss and make up with the "big man."

If Mittens losses, however, the "big man" will be in the middle of the GOP-eating-its-own orgy that will soon ensue. In the end, the "big man" will come out on top. With a Romney lost, this will make him the 2016 candidate, as long as the t-baggers don't kill him in the primary or he dies from one too many Big Macs. Jeb Bush might have a shot at Crissy but he suffers from being in the gun sights of the baggers as well; Jeb is also getting a little plump around the middle.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

Killing is killing. Either you're against all killing, or you're not.

Oh oh, I still eat fish on occasion.

Just google the words -

Chris Christie traitor

And see right wing nut world going bonkers!





There's a word for this, but I promised Odin I wouldn't use it any more. So, I'll just say -

- the baggers are extremely mentally-challenged.

I can only hope this goes viral - not the photo, but the wingnut reaction; it could be deadly just 6 days from the election.

Originally Posted by The Rani

On the other hand, it ain't over til it's over:
Tempers flare in NJ city where thousands stranded

And I'm sure you and Justin get orgasmic over such reports.

Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough

I have to disagree. The amount of actual violence committed by the United States government these days is extremely small compared to what it has committed in the past, and more importantly, it is extremely small compared to the amount of coercion it commits against its own citizens, backed up with the threat of violence.

If people behave badly, including not paying taxes and hurting others with bad business practices, the government is correct in coercing them.

Furthermore, the highest estimates of total casualties from the Iraq War are about 150,000. The highest estimates of total casualties from the Viet Nam War are about 5 million. The estimate for WWII is about 60 million.

Iraq is more like 500,000. That we didn't learn from the unnecessary killing in the Vietnam War, and turn away from it for good, is the tragedy. And the USA didn't kill most of those 60 million people in WWII.

In the last 40 years, 50 million unborn babies have been killed in the United States, an average of about 1.3 million per year. Ten times more babies are aborted in the U.S. every year than the total number of people killed in Iraq over the course of almost ten years.

Permitted, but not committed. The old argument about coat-hangers in back allies has some merit. But I think the abortion pill is a good enough basis to take the issue out of politics, if people choose to do that. Unfortunately, they would rather have the issue.

I'd like to hear some of the people railing away about Iraq and Afghanistan make the case against U.S. involvement in WWII. After all, the only attack against us was by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. Why did we use that as an excuse to go and slaughter millions of people in Europe?

Because Hitler's aggression in Europe oppressed and threatened our allies. Where would we have been if Britain had fallen to Hitler? The civilian bombings were cruel and unnecessary though, I agree. And I wonder if a demo could not have scared Japan into surrender.

How about the Civil War? Somebody want to make the case against the Union?

I can. I think the war could have been avoided, and Dixie could have been let go. The rest of the nation would be better off today without the South, which could not have sustained slavery in any event. However, I understand the argument that slavery was an abomination, and that the whole system had to be attacked and changed. The South is still bad though; it will be a long time before it grows out of its ways, if it ever does. It is holding the nation back now, as it did then. What we do about that, may be the next choice we have to make.

If not, someone has to explain why the recent, extremely limited violence committed by the U.S. government is so morally reprehensible in comparison to the massive violence it has committed in the past, and also the massive violence it defines as a constitutional right under Roe v. Wade.

I'm not arguing in favor of war. I'm just arguing against selective outrage.

The recent wars and killings are evidence that we still have a lot to learn. In many ways, things have gotten worse. The Iraq War was a blatant violation of international law, as was Vietnam. The recent wars were smaller than the biggest ones of the past, but were less justified. America has become an empire, able and willing to attack whomever it wants, for no reason. It's violence has become an ingrained habit, and a massive industry. That's what needs to be scaled back, but we have an ideology that insists that America today must be 10 times more powerful than any other kid on the block, and that our mere safety requires that massive superiority and also the option of attacking or locking up anyone regardless of the law. Our military-industrial empire and its wars have cost us dearly in debt, taxes, and declining social capital. We have so far refused to let go of this ideology.

But since the peace movement became powerful and influential in the late 1960s, we have had one party that has pursued a policy of mostly peace and international approaches to problems, while the other party pursues a policy of mostly war and unilateral actions. We have a choice next week about which way we go.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not really. Just a reality check.
When in doubt, don't wait around for government to save you ... whether Dem or Repub.

Seriously, there was plenty of warning for the able-bodied to get out or at least get supplies. Christie literally said "don't be stupid". I do feel for anyone trapped without food and water, but it isn't like this was a surprise. That article talks about 25,000 stranded citizens in Hoboken.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not really. Just a reality check.
When in doubt, don't wait around for government to save you ... whether Dem or Repub.

ah, and what would be your guess of how many deaths there would have been without govt weather satellites alone?

If you don't have a clue, try looking up the 1970 Bhola cyclone that struck Bangladesh and India's West Bengal on November 12, 1970 - a population center on par with the NY/NJ area hit by Sandy. Between 500,000 and 1 million killed outright; more from disease outbreaks that came later. No govt satellites tracking the storm and providing any warnings.

I guess this is where I should post some photos of drowned orphans or something.

You anti-govt people are clowns.

Originally Posted by playwrite

ah, and what would be your guess of how many deaths there would have been without govt weather satellites alone?

If you don't have a clue, try looking up the 1970 Bhola cyclone that struck Bangladesh and India's West Bengal on November 12, 1970 - a population center on par with the NY/NJ area hit by Sandy. Between 500,000 and 1 million killed outright; more from disease outbreaks that came later. No govt satellites tracking the storm and providing any warnings.

I guess this is where I should post some photos of drowned orphans or something.

You anti-govt people are clowns.

Good point. The early warning systems are getting pretty good at predicting the magnitude of these storms so people can get the hell out of the way. I am baffled at the ones that stay behind and piss and moan because the have no food and water.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Remember when we were discussing whether or not people have learned a lesson and I said "no, they haven't?"

I do, I do.

Originally Posted by playwrite

And I'm sure you and Justin get orgasmic over such reports.

Granted, you use my name to argue against a made-up position you fabricated yourself, but still, I wonder about this...

Really, the shame is all those people who get angry for not being taken care of, instead of taking responsibility for helping themselves and their neighbors out. They screwed themselves over, screwed the people around them over, then think they somehow are being wronged for not having things fixed for them?

Originally Posted by Aramea

Seriously, there was plenty of warning for the able-bodied to get out or at least get supplies. Christie literally said "don't be stupid". I do feel for anyone trapped without food and water, but it isn't like this was a surprise. That article talks about 25,000 stranded citizens in Hoboken.

There is a subset of the population who will do exactly the opposite of anything recommended by "teh governement", because it is "teh problem". Then, when their own foolishness gets them in trouble, well they were right, the governement is "teh problem", just like they thought.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Remember when we were discussing whether or not people have learned a lesson and I said "no, they haven't?"

Yes, but why? What makes learning such basic things impossible for so many? Maybe they just can't trust the messenger, because the messenger has been demagogued to death. That makes the demagoguers the moral villians of the piece, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Granted, you use my name to argue against a made-up position you fabricated yourself, but still, I wonder about this...

Really, the shame is all those people who get angry for not being taken care of, instead of taking responsibility for helping themselves and their neighbors out. They screwed themselves over, screwed the people around them over, then think they somehow are being wronged for not having things fixed for them?

True and sad. Even Forrest Gump knew that, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Originally Posted by The Rani

25,000 is a lot of "stupid" people.
I don't blame Obama/Christie for it, but I don't give them credit for saving the "smart" ones who evacuated either.
The (non-partisan) weather forecast deserves credit for that.

No, but they do get credit for validating the report, and trying their best to convince people to leave. Short of marshall law, there is no way to force the issue.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Granted, you use my name to argue against a made-up position you fabricated yourself, but still, I wonder about this...

Really, the shame is all those people who get angry for not being taken care of, instead of taking responsibility for helping themselves and their neighbors out. They screwed themselves over, screwed the people around them over, then think they somehow are being wronged for not having things fixed for them?

Ahhh The United States, where my problems can become someone elses problems at the first sign of trouble.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Heh. Here we go:


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-guard-arrives

They guy has two daughters, and he decides to ride out the storm ... and the government was derelict in its duty?

What's worse... Two whole days without power? The inconvenience! The horror!

I suspect that there is a good chance that his various portable devices finally ran out of juice and drove him out of his home.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Yes, but why? What makes learning such basic things impossible for so many? Maybe they just can't trust the messenger, because the messenger has been demagogued to death. That makes the demagoguers the moral villians of the piece, don't you think?

I wonder if a part of it is how the media, at times, makes mountains out of mole hills? I mean, sometimes in our part of the woods, they go on and on about a weather event, scaring the heck out of people, then it turns out to be nothing like what they predicted. Weather reporting has gotten so that most people don't believe them any longer.