Originally Posted by Justin '77

You're young still, but you strike me as bright. I'm completely certain you'll figure it out in short order.

Oh no illusions here, I figured it out a long time ago and I'm still working on plans B) and C). I figure this election buys me a little time, because I'd be rushed to make C) happen ASAP if we got a religious nutter behind the chief puppet's desk.

I wasn't "disappointed" in Obama because he is pretty much what I expected. Still, he's probably the best mainstream candidate (maybe "least evil" is better) to run for office since I've been allowed to vote, and he's the only mainstream candidate I've voted for.

Of course, he's also still the chump who legitimized the Bush revolution among the "left wing" of this country, but that is "less evil" than having McCain or Romney take it to the next level before the blue team ratchet locks it in place.

And my god man, I'm only five years younger than you! The older we get, the less that even means!

Originally Posted by The Rani

I'd argue that it's "more evil."
But of course, you have a right to your own opinion, and vote.

Hypothetical scenario: Let's say McCain won before they brought Obama (or an equally suited counterpart) out, and McCain decided to go ahead with Iran or some other crazy neo-con scheme like gutting SS & Medicare.

4 or 8 years later, you'd have the same thing: another Democrat who smooths the roughest edges of that radical policy to legitimize the new status quo. Except it would be a much worse status quo.

It's like, we're in a rocket car hurtling toward a cliff wall. We can fire the thrusters manually or switch to coast on auto-pilot for a little extra stabilization, but we're kinda heading in the wrong direction either way.

Yeah, the Libertarians say hurry up and turn right, the Greens say hurry up and turn left: I'd like it if either got their way right now, but it isn't going to happen because the car wasn't built to have precision steering. And the people who are actually inside the cockpit are busy arguing about who gets to sell off the parts after they win the speed record, but they haven't put any thought in to who can actually bring us home safely.

Plan C) by the way, is hitting the eject button and hoping there are some parachutes left.

Originally Posted by playwrite

We're out of Iraq

We're on schedule to pull out of Afghanistan

Drone strikes are way down and coming down more.

If by "out" you mean having several thousand military "advisors", not to mention 10,000 mercenaries and countless bureaucrats on the ground in Iraq, then yes we are "out." One should expect that after 10 years of setting fire to low technology countries that we would eventually run out of people worth killing. This is a very routine example of how an empire subdues the indigenous population that happens to live on land that it wants.

But don't worry, empires traditionally reserve the right to occasionally punish vassals when they step too far out of line or when they feel recently acquired resources are threatened. In the event of an outbreak of critical thinking on the part of our new vassals we can all expect that our freedom will be defended from the threat posed any of those swarthy camel-riders.

Originally Posted by playwrite

We have not taken military action against Iran.

Really? You think all those Iranian scientists blew themselves up?

Originally Posted by playwrite

We have not sanctioned Israel taking action, including possibly nuclear, against Iran.

Oh goodness. Not only have we sanctioned action, we have been actively helping out. Of course it's too little too late at this point. Iran likely had a working prototype near the end of September. Israel and the United States effectively can't attack Iran overtly thanks to an already inflamed populace in the region. Really the plan switched from denial to containment the minute the Arab Spring started.

Originally Posted by playwrite

If you don't think these are big deals or that they would be completely different if the GOP held the White House, then you are either not paying attention or again, you're just another resident of magic pony land.

Yes, yes. I mean, how could anyone paying attention not see the radical differences in middle eastern policy between your team and the other team?

Poll averages and results in swing states:

http://philosopherswheel.com/pollaverages.html

Originally Posted by '58 Flat

But in the case of farm states like North Dakota it is because these Senators are way into farm subsidies!

A few farm states that vote Republican nationally have Democratic Senators, but usually not. South Dakota has one; Missouri's Democratic Senator survived in 2012 thanks to a major gaffe by her extremist opponent; that happened in Indiana too. Nebraska's DINO was replaced by a Republican.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Yes, we have real issues with strategic vision. It's pretty warped at the moment, but that is an entirely different issue than how we pursue that vision. Tactics are derived from startegic planning and the needs of the moment. If you want to fix our relationships in the world, go for it. We have plenty that needs fixing. But while you're doing it, could we try not to die?

From Roots Action:

"A recent study by Stanford and NYU found that drones traumatize innocent populations, who have no way of knowing how to protect themselves from drone strikes. Further, only 2% of victims of these strikes are high-level targets. The drones kill civilian men, women, and children, are being used to target rescuers, schools and funerals, and create significant anti-U.S. hostility -- exactly as the Pakistani and Afghan governments have said they do"

Is it worth it? Are all of these innocent lives really worth it? Should a president target an area knowing that there are innocent civilians in the area? He has a kill list that doesn't require a trail or consideration of murdering innocent human beings. This, from an American president. And he is creating more hatred toward our country.

Originally Posted by the bouncer

the government is of, by, and for the people.

good lord. don't they teach civics in school anymore?

The relevant question for Classic Xer is what they were teaching in school during the 70s and 80s. Since he was an Xer, if he had to learn civics in an open classroom or some such nonsense, maybe not much.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I'm not a proponent of these either, but this is a similar problem to the Barbary pirates issue Thomas Jefferson had to resolve. Sworn enemies that hide in lawless lands will do whatever they can to harm us, assuming we are the target of their wrath. Allowing safe havens for them, makes the job of defending against them nearly impossible. This is one of the prime attributes of asymetrical warfare. Now, you could argue that we should turn the other cheek, but they are unlikely to see this a courage. In fact. they will consider that stupidity, and take full advantage.

In case you missed it, prior to using these tactics, and that's what they are, we had 9/11 and the Madrid train bombing, not to mention the resort boming in Bali and countless smaller attacks. A lot of people died who had nothing whatsoever to do with whatever issue the terrorists were trying to resolve (or foment). Are those deaths less horriific? Should we play nice and wait for more?

Good points; however even Mitt the Twit had a good point when he said "we can't kill our way out of this." We also need to do more positive things like help the people there economically and educate them about democracy and tolerance. Drone attacks and all air attacks have the major downside that they encourage more hatred and violence against America. Unless we can take out specific targets with no collateral damage, drone attacks are often counter-productive.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think playdude types out insults with one hand while rebuilding houses hit by the hurricane with the other hand.

Holy crap, that made me jump when I just read it. It's like you've been following me around.

It would be nice to think I had another female stalker (a guy can't have too many of those unless they carry sharp pointy things), but I have a feeling you got a pretty good folder on me by now (in the "experimental file cabinet, of course).

And hey, I'm not saying this is you, but the stalker thingee reminded me of this very talented young lady -

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

The relevant question for Classic Xer is what they were teaching in school during the 70s and 80s. Since he was an Xer, if he had to learn civics in an open classroom or some such nonsense, maybe not much.

Sex, drugs, rock'n'roll.. It was mostly independent-study though, and I think the teachers were just there to make sure no one got in to too much trouble.

Originally Posted by Deb C

We need to seriously understand the meaning of BLOWBACK.

Do you not understand that the attacks by terrorists in New York where blow back from our sanctions killing one half million children with our Iraq sanctions? Bin Laden told us that. I am actually surprised that an intelligent man like yourself would believe the propaganda of the Bush administration. But we would rather believe that, as Bush told us, that they hated our freedom. That is pure unadulterated BS.

While the blowback is true, and also includes our support for Israel, it is also true that a lot of Taliban and Al Qaeda types do hate our freedom, and all "infidels." I've heard them say it.

The USA and Obama's somewhat-supportive approach to the Arab Spring is good. Many young people in that region are realizing for themselves that they want freedom and economic opportunity, and Al Qaeda is becoming irrelevant to them. We need to help that process in positive ways.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I agree, 300 pt drops aren't too exciting as far as jobs and the economy are concerned. But yeah, pot is now legal in a few states, gay marriage is now on its way to becoming a common thingy, women will have birth control included in their healthcare policies at no additional cost, climate change is now the big thing that America needs to address and the deadbeats have access to free healthcare.

Except for your term "deadbeats," those are all great things. If you don't like sheeple, does that mean you support these things now? Or are you still a sheeple, and don't support them?

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I think playdude types with one hand while he's masterbating with the other hand.

I dunno, maybe you'd best leave the psychoanalysis to The Rani.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Why make an issue? We have governement "of the people", so the money comes from taxes and the governement handles the project management. Do you want to differentiate further than that? If so, why? We currently have a government "by the people", I would actually complain that modern conservatives have lost sight of those tasks, let them languish and now we are behind on everything. That's the fault of "we the people", too.

The issue is that we currently have government "by the people" in place. Government "of the people" has little to no value in todays America but you continue to sell it as if it does, as if it is and as if it eventually will. Hint: Americans came here to get away from or escape government "of the people" with the exception of the slaves. The only difference is the majority of them coming over today aren't white but their reason is probably the same. The issue I see on the left is the left wants a government that does everything, can do anything and provide for everyone which is in my opinion impossible and unaffordable. The issue I see with the Democrats is they continue to smile, cater, pander, wiggle yes's and signals that it can make that happen. I have absolutely no respect for the Democrats as people and as a party.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

God it is such a relief that the elections are over and Romney won't be president any time soon.

'Cuz now I can get back to bashing Obama... lol

It's a shame how effectively they've reduced the choices to near-clones of each other, but even picking a slightly lesser evil does result in a marginal decrease of total evil.

Yeah, Obama does not have to face re-election, and we don't have to support him against some Republican Twit anymore. Free at last!

Originally Posted by Justin '77

You're young still, but you strike me as bright. I'm completely certain you'll figure it out in short order.

It strikes me as though he already has.

Indeed, that parachutes post is way too complicated for me to follow!

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

What has government done/accomplished for me? Did government do all the work in school for me? Did government go to work and achieve the levels of success for me? Did government create the jobs, go to the interviews and get the jobs for me? Did government get out of bed, eat breakfast, walk through the frigid cold and arrive at school on time for me? Did government create a business for me too? Did government provide the healthcare for the employees for me?

Here, let's take this down to a level that you might have a chance to understand.

Where did you get the dollars that made all those things possible? Some you got from your customers; maybe some you borrowed from the bank or possible parents or some family members. BUT, where did they get those dollars? They earned them somehow, but they didn't make them. If they made them, then you need to call the FBI and report them because if you don't, you can go to jail for a very long time!

Every dollar you have earned in any way possible is a result of the federal government issuing and maintaining that currency.

Now without those dollars, just how successful do you thing you would be. Sure, you might think of yourself as the he-man of the 21st Century and able to eek out a living as subsistent farmer or perhaps a notch up from that in a barter system with your immediate neighbors. However, you would be fool to think you'd be anywhere near the level of wealth you have if the federal government hadn't created and maintain the very currency that you worship above all else.

How does it now feel to know most of your monetary wealth is dependent on the federal government? Or, do you remain too thick to understand that?

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Yeah, "only time will tell" if killing innocents with inaccurate and impersonal assassination tactics will result in blow-back ...

Blowback is guaranteed. What's your point? Is it, that the blowback is worse than the alternative (undefined as it is), or it's bad, period? I agree that it's bad. I can't evaluate the other scenario ... and neither can you.

So we have a choice, and not a good one. We can trust the experts to get it right, or we can opt to do it our way. I'm trusting the experts, because i know just how little I know.

That said, we need to worry less about drone strikes and more about how we treat people we have in custody. If humane treatment in custody is a viable alterntive to being blown to bits, we might get some voluntary surrenders, and all the intelligence that comes with them.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Holy crap, that made me jump when I just read it. It's like you've been following me around.

It would be nice to think I had another female stalker (a guy can't have too many of those unless they carry sharp pointy things), but I have a feeling you got a pretty good folder on me by now (in the "experimental file cabinet, of course).

And hey, I'm not saying this is you, but the stalker thingee reminded me of this very talented young lady -

Indeed; and there's another version that lasts an hour! Of her just making that stare!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I dunno, maybe you'd best leave the psychoanalysis to The Rani.

I dunno, maybe you should ask Rani if I have a pretty good ability/instinct to accurately read and judge people. Where do you live, Beverly Hills?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

But let's also acknowledge that we were an experiment in self rule. There have been numerous alterntives since we wrote our Constitution that fixed some things we failed to address. We made amending the thing far too hard, though, in the agricultural age, amending it seemed much less urgent. Builidng a governement structure that is almost unwieldly is another agricultural age "mistake". Now, we have too many powerful entities with vested interests in the current system, so we're stuck.

But all in all, a successful experiement. 225 years is nothing to scoff at. At some point, it will need updating.

I agree.

However, the "since we wrote our Constitution" just further reinforces how truly blessed we are - imitation is the best flattery and going even further is what we all should hope for.

I still remain utterly stunned by how many take what they have for granted. Not that I'm against bitching (my own head would explode if that was prohibited) but putting into real-world context gives the bitchin a lot more credibility - at least with those with still functioning brain stems.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I certainly do, but as I said I love you anyway.

Oooh, I'm so jealous of playdude now!

Originally Posted by Copperfield

If by "out" you mean having several thousand military "advisors", not to mention 10,000 mercenaries and countless bureaucrats on the ground in Iraq, then yes we are "out." One should expect that after 10 years of setting fire to low technology countries that we would eventually run out of people worth killing. This is a very routine example of how an empire subdues the indigenous population that happens to live on land that it wants.

What difference does it make to you how many die? After all, humans are just unconscious automatons whose actions can all be explained mechanically, right? Darwinian Evolution and all that, huh?

Originally Posted by The Rani

The interesting thing is that both the Greens and the Libertarians understand this concept, and both have been silenced by the main two parties AND the corporate-controlled media.
An intelligent, critically thinking person might see a connection there.

This is surprising? Why? Neither party needs to worry about it, except as a concept. If they did, they may think differently.

Think about your own field. Back kwhen there was a move to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill, dId anyone suggest that dangerous psychopaths should be included? Would you have at the time? But then, someone with no authority, and probably far less real knowledge, could say, "They will integrate well if we provide adequate community services.", knowing it will never happen.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

... Plan C) by the way, is hitting the eject button and hoping there are some parachutes left.

Yes there are alternatives. Here's the easiest: Canada. I'll let you go from there.