Originally Posted by The Rani

Man, that Obama sure had you guys in a bind.
What an asshole.

That's great, now we get to listen to Obama preaching climate change and immigration reform, promoting Romney's great healthcare plan while unemployment stays the same, debt rises and the economy struggles. Yahoo!!! Then we get to listen to them cry when the six seats they gained in the Senate are lost in the mid-terms.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Not as awful as drone strikes, but still not cool.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...3733245.story\

Especially given this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1451744.html

I wonder WTF changed his mind.

ETA:
Another good article - -
http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/08/smal...source=cnn_bin

This is actually fixable. If you want an issue that can be addressed and resolved, try this one.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

What difference does it make to you how many die? After all, humans are just unconscious automatons whose actions can all be explained mechanically, right? Darwinian Evolution and all that, huh?

One could easily ask the same of a man who believes in an afterlife built specifically for human mirth.

As you have displayed on multiple occasions, you don't quite understand how to separate what is and the ethics of doing business in what is. I figure once you learn to crawl, then perhaps we can move on to teaching you how to walk.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's great, now we get to listen to Obama preaching climate change and immigration reform, promoting Romney's great healthcare plan while unemployment stays the same, debt rises and the economy struggles. Yahoo!!! Then we get to listen to them cry when the six seats they gained in the Senate are lost in the mid-terms.

I hope I get to listen to those things, and you should too. And no-one with a functioning sheepless brain really believes that the president is totally responsible for the economic cycle. And it's the Republicans who will lose more seats.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I certainly do, but as I said I love you anyway.

Isn't it amazing how many love/hate relationships we have on this forum?

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Yes there are alternatives. Here's the easiest: Canada. I'll let you go from there.

Easy isn't fun.

Besides, easy solutions are rarely best solutions. Canada and Mexico seem increasingly likely to get caught up in what is coming.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

One could easily ask the same of a man who believes in an afterlife built specifically for human mirth.

But who also believes it is worthwhile to be here on Earth......

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

The relevant question for Classic Xer is what they were teaching in school during the 70s and 80s. Since he was an Xer, if he had to learn civics in an open classroom or some such nonsense, maybe not much.

oh, boy. and so i guess that makes me the real conservative in the room because, like, i actually believe in the idea of self government and civic behavior.

paging alexis de toqueville.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

The issue is that we currently have government "by the people" in place. Government "of the people" has little to no value in todays America but you continue to sell it as if it does, as if it is and as if it eventually will. Hint: Americans came here to get away from or escape government "of the people" with the exception of the slaves.

ah, but the people spoke with a very powerful voice on tuesday. and what they said was that big money wasn't going to steal this election. citizens united be damned. i couldn't be happier watching the rove-bot, norquist, the kochs and their stooges go down in flames.

Listening to people praise the government for unnecessary murders does not inspire one to believe that those who claim to be Leftists have any morals at all. So from whence do we get this idea that Leftists are these enlightened folk who are put on this earth to teach the rest of us how to behave? Something has happened to the Left over the decades, and it resembles little of what it once was... or claimed to be.

The Left on this board chortles with glee when their Dear Leader vaporizes people with sky weapons. They shill for a program that would de-fund Medicare and ration health care by bureaucratic fiat. Which of course leads to cold committees deciding which people are worthy of saving and which useless eaters should be left to die, thus betraying their supposed core values.

But they care so much for us that they simply must take things over and dictate how we live our lives, presumably because they are so much smarter and more moral than the rest of us. Only they know how you and I should live. It's for our own good you know.

The Left on this board makes excuses for wars of aggression, random murder and violence, the incarceration of harmless citizens, and the destruction of our safety net. And that's just for starters.

What the hell happened to the Left?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

But who also believes it is worthwhile to be here on Earth......

Yet ultimately irrelevant when compared with the "promised eternity" sales pitch. This is of course the main problem with religion. When you give the uneducated a good reason to die, a great many of them will find a reason to do just that (bonus points if you can get them to die while killing others you may not like).

That said, we need to worry less about drone strikes and more about how we treat people we have in custody. If humane treatment in custody is a viable alterntive to being blown to bits, we might get some voluntary surrenders, and all the intelligence that comes with them.

another excellent point.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Playdude might be joking about being a heavy drinker, but all the signs certainly fit so I tend to believe it.
Over the last few years, I've learned that the best way to deal with alcoholics is appreciate the good and ignore the bad. Ignore as in separate yourself from it, not tolerate it or enable it.
Heck, that's probably the best way to deal with people in general.

I find it works with people like you, anyway.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Well, that's a big "if". We may be making enemies and solidifying friednships, but we'll never be a full party to what goes on. 99% of that is classified by all parties concerned.

Public face is not intended as the policy face. All that gets handled in private.

It does come down to faith with those "in the know” and that does make me uncomfortable. However, I can put that faith in Obama; never could with Bush (even with Colin Powell).

It's the context.

It appears he wants to lower our aggressive stance - even drone attacks are less, much less, aggressive than boots on the ground.

He also is resisting the insanity of attacking Iran by either us or Israel. And he's being measured in his responses to Syria. Same with Libya during the rebellion against Gaddafi and with the more recent Benghazi incident.

Any doubt that these would be completely different with a different trajectory of our involvement and violence should the NeoCons be back n charge? Any doubt about that after witnessing Romney's reaction to Benghazi? Romney was obviously a sock puppet for the NeoCons; God help us if he had won the election.

People who don't get this are completely clueless, not only with what is going on in the world at large but also with extremely different vying political forces within their own country. There is a real difference and it is huge --- including in terms of human life.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Playdude might be joking about being a heavy drinker, but all the signs certainly fit so I tend to believe it.
Over the last few years, I've learned that the best way to deal with alcoholics is appreciate the good and ignore the bad. Ignore as in separate yourself from it, not tolerate it or enable it.
Heck, that's probably the best way to deal with people in general.

Your statement is wisdom personified.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

This is actually fixable. If you want an issue that can be addressed and resolved, try this one.

obama came around on gay marriage. it's possible he could be persuadable on this issue as well.

By the way, I don't think it's accurate to call these things going on "wars". The United States is engaging in occupations, which isn't the same thing. Americans like war so they call them wars though. It's hard to win an occupation, and the US is generally pretty bad at that sort of thing anyway.

And for those people who suddenly become deficit hawks only when the subject of tax cuts comes up, why not just print the entire federal budget? If you can print half of it as we currently do, we can print all of it and the whole country can go on tax holiday until this depression blows over. That is, unless taxation is something other than simply a revenue tool to certain people.

The secret that these tax-raisers are hiding is that they really care more about power and control, and those in the public that support ever-higher taxes for other people are simply engaging in their primate instinct that wants other people to do worse. Can't have that neighbor down the street with a nicer car, so tax them to poverty so I feel better about myself by comparison.

The tax argument, like so much else in politics during these times of increasing scarcity, plays to the basest animal instinct in people. That's why it's so effective. When someone is hurting often times the knee jerk reaction is to want others to share that misery, even if it takes the negative form of making others suffer along with you.

Originally Posted by Seattleblue

Listening to people praise the government for unnecessary murders does not inspire one to believe that those who claim to be Leftists have any morals at all. So from whence do we get this idea that Leftists are these enlightened folk who are put on this earth to teach the rest of us how to behave? Something has happened to the Left over the decades, and it resembles little of what it once was... or claimed to be.

The Left on this board chortles with glee when their Dear Leader vaporizes people with sky weapons. They shill for a program that would de-fund Medicare and ration health care by bureaucratic fiat. Which of course leads to cold committees deciding which people are worthy of saving and which useless eaters should be left to die, thus betraying their supposed core values.

But they care so much for us that they simply must take things over and dictate how we live our lives, presumably because they are so much smarter and more moral than the rest of us. Only they know how you and I should live. It's for our own good you know.

The Left on this board makes excuses for wars of aggression, random murder and violence, the incarceration of harmless citizens, and the destruction of our safety net. And that's just for starters.

What the hell happened to the Left?

they stopped listening to your bullshit, maybe?

Originally Posted by The Rani

What's the difference, eh Eric? If we're all Spirit, might as well be dead as alive. Since our physical bodies mean nothing anyway.

Who said our physical bodies mean nothing?

If humans are really automatic products of necessary forces and material, and have no afterlife, we might as well be dead anyway.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Who said our physical bodies mean nothing?

you certainly didn't, eric. but there is a prevailing tendency for some on this board to make shit up.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Yet ultimately irrelevant when compared with the "promised eternity" sales pitch. This is of course the main problem with religion. When you give the uneducated a good reason to die, a great many of them will find a reason to do just that (bonus points if you can get them to die while killing others you may not like).

Yes it does pay dividends if people are educated, and then they might not believe that stuff. Our new age enlightened point of view is that it's all the same whether on this side or the other side.

Originally Posted by The Rani

That's exactly what I meant by this:

Thank you.

And you're dead wrong.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's great, now we get to listen to Obama preaching climate change and immigration reform, promoting Romney's great healthcare plan while unemployment stays the same, debt rises and the economy struggles. Yahoo!!! Then we get to listen to them cry when the six seats they gained in the Senate are lost in the mid-terms.

If you want unemployment down, just spend about $1T on infrastructure projects every year for the next 4 years. Problem solved. Oh, and the economy will be roaring, with inflation starting to rise ... which it desparately needs to do in any case. By the next election, the economy will be running at $26T a year.

Originally Posted by Seattleblue

Listening to people praise the government for unnecessary murders does not inspire one to believe that those who claim to be Leftists have any morals at all. So from whence do we get this idea that Leftists are these enlightened folk who are put on this earth to teach the rest of us how to behave? Something has happened to the Left over the decades, and it resembles little of what it once was... or claimed to be.

Obama and his supporters are moderates and not leftists. It's worthwhile to ask where are the leftists. They are and always were a rather small minority in this country. Democrats are more likely to be moderates. Our political spectrum tilts strongly to the right. That's because the Left has been too cowardly and has allowed the right's trickle-down propaganda to prevail, and it has convinced people like you who seem to care about things at least a little bit.

The Left on this board chortles with glee when their Dear Leader vaporizes people with sky weapons. They shill for a program that would de-fund Medicare and ration health care by bureaucratic fiat. Which of course leads to cold committees deciding which people are worthy of saving and which useless eaters should be left to die, thus betraying their supposed core values.

The Left on this board does not chortle over that. Some moderate-liberals may say that the drone attacks are necessary against those who attacked us, but that we need to decrease them. There is no such program supported by liberals or moderates that would "de-fund" or "ration" medicare. You don't believe Romney's election-year propaganda, do you? The actual Left wants a single-payer, medicare-for-all system. And some of us want more emphasis on holistic and preventive care too, so that medicine costs less. And you believe Sarah Palin's propaganda too? Get a grip. Don't fall for climate science denial, or for death panel nonsense either. Start with the facts seattleblue, and you'll get a much clearer picture of what's going on.

But they care so much for us that they simply must take things over and dictate how we live our lives, presumably because they are so much smarter and more moral than the rest of us. Only they know how you and I should live. It's for our own good you know.

"Dictate how we live our lives." I've heard that trickle-down nonsense for so long now that it makes me want to puke. What is being dictated, and to whom? Be more specific when you repeat mindless slogans. The fact is that the liberals and Left want to dictate to powerful corporate interests that they stop ruining our lives. The rich and the wealthy put out that "dictate how we live our lives" crap so they don't have to do what they ought to do anyway, and that is treat people with respect and not hurt them.

The Left on this board makes excuses for wars of aggression, random murder and violence, the incarceration of harmless citizens, and the destruction of our safety net. And that's just for starters.

What the hell happened to the Left?

We don't make any such excuses. The destruction of our safety net? You are all concerned about saving that now? You can't save it by repeating trickle-down free-market economics slogans whose purpose is to destroy it utterly, or by falling for Republican campaign distortions.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

You're right. Even a fifth-grader is able to recognize that there is something wrong with comparing killing one person to killing a thousand person as if it were a matter of mere numbers -- you know, what you keep wanting to do. To you credit, though, not all fifth-graders would be mature enough to recognize that on more than a visceral level. Understanding the fact that a human life is not fungible is something that seems to take a bit more life experience and reflection.

So since even fifth-graders could recognize the fallacy of your argument, I wonder at what level your social development stalled out?

But that's not the whole equation and a fifth grader would understand that as well.

Here's the situation as explained to us by our government -

There are people that are targeting us, to kill us. We need to kill or capture them in the most targeted manner possible, reducing both our own casualities and innocent bystanders and in a way that minimizes our geopolitical risks.

You can come up with as many arguments as you want about that, but the FACT of the matter is you don't have a frickin clue because you are not privy to 1/1,000,000 of the information to know.

It comes down to faith in your govt leaders. You, by knee-jerk rote, have no faith in ANY central govt. This makes you completely non-credible in any discussion about the matter.

As I just noted with M&L I have faith, to some extent, and it is based on an actual rational.