Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

If you want unemployment down, just spend about $1T on infrastructure projects every year for the next 4 years. Problem solved. Oh, and the economy will be roaring, with inflation starting to rise ... which it desparately needs to do in any case. By the next election, the economy will be running at $26T a year.

Bingo!

And that was too short of a message so I will say again -

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

If you want unemployment down, just spend about $1T on infrastructure projects every year for the next 4 years. Problem solved. Oh, and the economy will be roaring, with inflation starting to rise ... which it desparately needs to do in any case. By the next election, the economy will be running at $26T a year.

Good prescription! I'm sure classic Xer exile and all his allies on this board will be on board with bells on!

Originally Posted by the bouncer

you certainly didn't, eric. but there is a prevailing tendency for some on this board to make shit up.

Indeed and welcome back to the board.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Only when he can keep that other hand free, of course. And on that matter, the residents of the eastern seaboard are certainly very grateful that Rani hasn't posted more pictures recently.

It's a guy thing, you wouldn't understand.

Originally Posted by Deb C

We need to seriously understand the meaning of BLOWBACK.

Do you not understand that the attacks by terrorists in New York where blow back from our sanctions killing one half million children with our Iraq sanctions? Bin Laden told us that. I am actually surprised that an intelligent man like yourself would believe the propaganda of the Bush administration. But we would rather believe that, as Bush told us, that they hated our freedom. That is pure unadulterated BS.

"The greatest danger emanates from our own government, controlled not by the people but by Wall Street and the Pentagon, the Corporate/Military/Security complex, dictating who is in and who is out, supporting ruthlessness, intervening, and interfering. All those fingerprints and boots make huge dents in the countries whose resources we require to keep us warm in winter, cool in summer, and our cars ready for that next ride to stock up at Wal-Mart, just as they assault here at home, taking, taking, taking our property, our children’s future, and our dignity." ....... Miss Beattie

Do you really think the people in our intelligence community, the military and the diplomatic corps (you know, the people who do this for a living) know less about this than you do???

If you think OBL gave a rat's ass about Iraqis, children or otherwise, you obviously don't know too much about it.

It comes down to faith in our leadership and those who do know more than we do. You don't have that faith because for you ANY death is unjustifiable. That's different than with Justin, but if that is the case, it still disqualifies you for having at least any lengthy real world discussion on the manner. It’s pretty much limited to “bad, Obama, bad.”

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I think playdude types with one hand while he's masterbating with the other hand.

Yea, but unlike you, I'm not attracted to alter boys.

Originally Posted by the bouncer

excellent, excellent response.

if bush had decided to go after al qaeda this way from the beginning and not wasted our time, lives and squillions of bucks trying to get rid of the taliban and saddam, the whole thing might have been over by now.

Bingo!

And due to minimal words standard -

Bingo, again!

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

God it is such a relief that the elections are over and Romney won't be president any time soon.

'Cuz now I can get back to bashing Obama... lol

It's a shame how effectively they've reduced the choices to near-clones of each other, but even picking a slightly lesser evil does result in a marginal decrease of total evil.

for what it's worth, your criticisms are actually worth listening to, because they're generally snark-free, show some level of intelligence -- and they don't rely on making shit up.

thank god for that.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

How many Americans associate Manhattan's with the real world? Obama needed a hurricane to teach him something I already new about Americans aka the REAL WORLDERS. In the real world, you're certifiable if a KIA or a Rani says that you're OK. You've never been able to pass the smell and taste test with me.

Yea, I'm sure the next time some terrorist group wants to attack America they'll come to your little patch in the woods.

At least once a week, I use to walk by a smoking hole where in a matter of minutes over 3000 Americans got pulverized into fine dust. That’s my town, and most Americans claim it as well. What's your excuse?

Originally Posted by the bouncer

for what it's worth, your criticisms are actually worth listening to, because they're generally snark-free, show some level of intelligence -- and they don't rely on making shit up.

thank god for that.

Hey, there's some wisdom and knowledge hidden in that snark! I realize that not everyone "speaks Nomad," though, so cuspers get the oh-so-fun-task of playing translator and peacemaker all too often.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Oh no illusions here, I figured it out a long time ago and I'm still working on plans B) and C). I figure this election buys me a little time, because I'd be rushed to make C) happen ASAP if we got a religious nutter behind the chief puppet's desk.

I wasn't "disappointed" in Obama because he is pretty much what I expected. Still, he's probably the best mainstream candidate (maybe "least evil" is better) to run for office since I've been allowed to vote, and he's the only mainstream candidate I've voted for.

Of course, he's also still the chump who legitimized the Bush revolution among the "left wing" of this country, but that is "less evil" than having McCain or Romney take it to the next level before the blue team ratchet locks it in place.

And my god man, I'm only five years younger than you! The older we get, the less that even means!

There's a lot here and elsewhere that I can sympathize with if not actually agree.

However, here's the key difference - "before the blue team ratchet locks it in place."

The biggest, and most recognized, blunder of the Bush Administration was the invasion of Iraq. Tell me how Obama taking us out of Iraq is a "blue team ratchet" that "locks it in place" as oppose to just mitigating to the greatest extend possible the mistake that was made.

The notion that the Blue Team just rounds out the rough edges of what the Red Team did is no less living in magic pony land than believing there is no discernment between the two teams. At best, it is slightly less intellectually lazy, but it’s as slight as the hair on the flea that's on Justin’s ass.

Originally Posted by playwrite

There's a lot here and elsewhere that I can sympathize with if not actually agree.

However, here's the key difference - "before the blue team ratchet locks it in place."

The biggest, and most recognized, blunder of the Bush Administration was the invasion of Iraq. Tell me how Obama taking us out of Iraq is a "blue team ratchet" that "locks it in place" as oppose to just mitigating to the greatest extend possible the mistake that was made.

The notion that the Blue Team just rounds out the rough edges of what the Red Team did is no less living in magic pony land than believing there is no discernment between the two teams. At best, it is slightly less intellectually lazy, but it’s as slight as the hair on the flea that's on Justin’s ass.

Dude, the invasion of Iraq is the tip of an iceburg of military & executive office reorganization. Obama melts away the rough edges of that tip and most of the rest falls off the radar, back to the icy unseen depths.

But don't dare call it empire, because then we'd have to end the conversation right there. Faith, faith is what we need!

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Hypothetical scenario: Let's say McCain won before they brought Obama (or an equally suited counterpart) out, and McCain decided to go ahead with Iran or some other crazy neo-con scheme like gutting SS & Medicare.

4 or 8 years later, you'd have the same thing: another Democrat who smooths the roughest edges of that radical policy to legitimize the new status quo. Except it would be a much worse status quo.

It's like, we're in a rocket car hurtling toward a cliff wall. We can fire the thrusters manually or switch to coast on auto-pilot for a little extra stabilization, but we're kinda heading in the wrong direction either way.

Yeah, the Libertarians say hurry up and turn right, the Greens say hurry up and turn left: I'd like it if either got their way right now, but it isn't going to happen because the car wasn't built to have precision steering. And the people who are actually inside the cockpit are busy arguing about who gets to sell off the parts after they win the speed record, but they haven't put any thought in to who can actually bring us home safely.

Plan C) by the way, is hitting the eject button and hoping there are some parachutes left.

Let's say McCain got in and gave the green light to Bibi to nuke Tehran to finally teach those Persians that the "West is the Best." Iranian contingency plan was put into operation and 'suitcase nuke' is set off in Tel Aviv.

Dem comes in and has to deal with the entire Middle East essentially being sterile and much of Southern Europe, North Africa, Turkey, the Caucasus, Southern Russia, India, Pakistan and China are falling into chaos as their populations die off from radioactive poisoning. The global economy is in chaos.

You would still consider the Dem coming in and dealing with this as "smoothes the roughest edges"???

You people are either insane or insane clowns. Sorry, not offering any other choices.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Dude, the invasion of Iraq is the tip of an iceburg of military & executive office reorganization. Obama melts away the rough edges of that tip and most of the rest falls off the radar, back to the icy unseen depths.

But don't dare call it empire, because then we'd have to end the conversation right there. Faith, faith is what we need!

Well, that and the hypnotic smile of a 64 toothed used-car salesman delivering the official message. Faith by itself is of little worth without the proper figureheads to seal the deal.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Let's say McCain got in and gave the green light to Bibi to nuke Tehran to finally teach those Persians that the "West is the Best." Iranian contingency plan was put into operation and 'suitcase nuke' is set off in Tel Aviv.

Dem comes in and has to deal with the entire Middle East essentially being sterile and much of Southern Europe, North Africa, Turkey, the Caucasus, Southern Russia, India, Pakistan and China are falling into chaos as their populations die off from radioactive poisoning. The global economy is in chaos.

You would still consider the Dem coming in and dealing with this as "smoothes the roughest edges"???

You people are either insane or insane clowns.

Oh, I'm sure there's a series of "red lines" out there somewhere, and once we've crossed them... well, elections will probably matter even less than they currently do.

(See Xers, voting can't be entirely meaningless! There are still ways left to suppress it that we haven't had to use yet!)

Originally Posted by playwrite

Let's say McCain got in and gave the green light to Bibi to nuke Tehran to finally teach those Persians that the "West is the Best." Iranian contingency plan was put into operation and 'suitcase nuke' is set off in Tel Aviv.

Dem comes in and has to deal with the entire Middle East essentially being sterile and much of Southern Europe, North Africa, Turkey, the Caucasus, Southern Russia, India, Pakistan and China are falling into chaos as their populations die off from radioactive poisoning. The global economy is in chaos.

You would still consider the Dem coming in and dealing with this as "smoothes the roughest edges"???

WIZARDS!! LASER BEAMS!!! EVIL MOLE PEOPLE!!!

And you still think poison lemon pie is bad for you?? Silly Indy..

Originally Posted by The Rani

I don't think you understand what we've been saying.
Voting is entirely meaningful, because it gives the victors carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.
If more people started voting third party, then the PTB might actually work more towards suppression. As it stands now, voting serves them quite well.

Well, right now, third parties need the most support in between elections. A lot of the guys that run the LP at the state level are pretty much volunteers who have to take a lot of time off when the donations to actually do something come in once every four years.

And while a top-down strategy can actually be rather effective in changing the U.S. political landscape, no third party is going to have half a realistic chance until they are given equal time at the debates and some proportionate amount of funding. Even then, the corporate media will find ways to insert their biases, buzzwords, and talking points in to the discussion and continue to frame third parties as "non-serious" and "unworthy of consideration."

Voting is quick and dirty, it's something you do on a Tuesday afternoon. Getting a third party elected is a life cause that might disappoint in such a short time-frame as one lifespan.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

If by "out" you mean having several thousand military "advisors", not to mention 10,000 mercenaries and countless bureaucrats on the ground in Iraq, then yes we are "out." One should expect that after 10 years of setting fire to low technology countries that we would eventually run out of people worth killing. This is a very routine example of how an empire subdues the indigenous population that happens to live on land that it wants.

But don't worry, empires traditionally reserve the right to occasionally punish vassals when they step too far out of line or when they feel recently acquired resources are threatened. In the event of an outbreak of critical thinking on the part of our new vassals we can all expect that our freedom will be defended from the threat posed any of those swarthy camel-riders.

Your right, there are different degrees of "out" but there is a huge difference between a full-bore active US combat zone and one with advisors. To suggest otherwise is just lazy dribble, like the rest of your statement.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Really? You think all those Iranian scientists blew themselves up?

Oh goodness. Not only have we sanctioned action, we have been actively helping out. Of course it's too little too late at this point. Iran likely had a working prototype near the end of September.

Again, huge difference between combat and covert operations. And again easy lazy dribble rather than any real attempt at thinking or discourse

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Israel and the United States effectively can't attack Iran overtly thanks to an already inflamed populace in the region. Really the plan switched from denial to containment the minute the Arab Spring started.

And your alternative? You can't on the one hand jump up and down about our involvement and then on the other ridicule because we haven't nuked them. Oh, wait, you can, you live in magic pony land. I forgot.

Originally Posted by Copperfield

Yes, yes. I mean, how could anyone paying attention not see the radical differences in middle eastern policy between your team and the other team?

Ah, you're using a 1-year plus old article speculating on whether the withdrawal would actually occur??? Gee, these things kind of move fast. Who knows for sure, but in a year you might not have any combat troops in-country.

You do know the difference between combat troops and advisors, right? I do.

Originally Posted by The Rani

You should be. He's a nutcase, but his brain actually works when it's sober.

Whoa, wait a minute, I am typically sober. It's just when I read this forum too much that I need a drink!

Beside, all the alcohol would cramp my sex addiction.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's great, now we get to listen to Obama preaching climate change and immigration reform, promoting Romney's great healthcare plan while unemployment stays the same, debt rises and the economy struggles. Yahoo!!! Then we get to listen to them cry when the six seats they gained in the Senate are lost in the mid-terms.

There has been extensive job growth in the private sector, rivaling what Bush and Reagan accomplished after their economic contractions.

The problem under Obama has been shrinkage in govt jobs like teachers, police, firemen.

You can't have it both ways. Whoops forgot again, you live in magic pony land. Nevermind.

Originally Posted by The Rani

I don't think you understand what we've been saying.
Voting is entirely meaningful, because it gives the victors carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.
If more people started voting third party, then the PTB might actually work more towards suppression. As it stands now, voting serves them quite well.

more idiocy.

"victors" can't do whatever the hell they want. we have a gop congress, a democratic senate, and a democratic president. nobody is going to get everything they want. they are going to have to compromise.

as for "third, fourth, fifth, etc." parties -- there were scads of them on my ballot. you all have to do better than have jill stein and rocky anderson competing against each other.

get a consensus. recruit a prominent person with some name recognition.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Isn't it amazing how many love/hate relationships we have on this forum?

Yes, the bliss without the marriage contract! Pretty cool.

Originally Posted by The Rani

Playdude might be joking about being a heavy drinker, but all the signs certainly fit so I tend to believe it.
Over the last few years, I've learned that the best way to deal with alcoholics is appreciate the good and ignore the bad. Ignore as in separate yourself from it, not tolerate it or enable it.
Heck, that's probably the best way to deal with people in general.

I'm actually okay on the drinking, but this sex addiction is really tough. Can you help me out with that?

Please note, I'm not looking for a cure.

Originally Posted by Seattleblue

Listening to people praise the government for unnecessary murders does not inspire one to believe that those who claim to be Leftists have any morals at all. So from whence do we get this idea that Leftists are these enlightened folk who are put on this earth to teach the rest of us how to behave? Something has happened to the Left over the decades, and it resembles little of what it once was... or claimed to be.

The Left on this board chortles with glee when their Dear Leader vaporizes people with sky weapons. They shill for a program that would de-fund Medicare and ration health care by bureaucratic fiat. Which of course leads to cold committees deciding which people are worthy of saving and which useless eaters should be left to die, thus betraying their supposed core values.

But they care so much for us that they simply must take things over and dictate how we live our lives, presumably because they are so much smarter and more moral than the rest of us. Only they know how you and I should live. It's for our own good you know.

The Left on this board makes excuses for wars of aggression, random murder and violence, the incarceration of harmless citizens, and the destruction of our safety net. And that's just for starters.

What the hell happened to the Left?

Turn off the TV and go read some books.

I'm from the Left with a pedigree that includes Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, LBJ. And if you follow it by philosophy and demeanor, that pedigree can be traced back to Lincoln and maybe even Washington. All pacifists, right?

Get a grip.

Originally Posted by playwrite

Here's the situation as explained to us by our government -

There are people that are targeting us, to kill us. We need to kill or capture them...

Indeed, that's the same line every government, everywhere, uses against its people. No arguments here, it works (or else it wouldn't get used so much).

It does take, however, a special kind of historical blindness not to recognize the argument for what it is, when there have been so many, many, many, many, many examples of its being exposed as a lie.

Hmm... 'historical blindness'... have we stumbled on a linking contributor to your MMT-ism, as well? Ver-r-ry interesting.