I am sorry if I sound like a smart alec, but what has astrology done with the fact there are officially only 8 planets now. Pluto has been demoted.

Pluto, formal designation 134340 Pluto, is the second most massive known dwarf planet in the Solar System (after Eris) and the tenth most massive body observed directly orbiting the Sun. Originally classified as a planet, Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population known as the Kuiper belt.[note 9]

Like other members of the Kuiper belt, Pluto is composed primarily of rock and ice and is relatively small: approximately a fifth the mass of the Earth's Moon and a third its volume. It has an eccentric and highly inclined orbit that takes it from 30 to 49 AU (4.4–7.4 billion km) from the Sun. This causes Pluto to periodically come closer to the Sun than Neptune.

From its discovery in 1930 until 2006, Pluto was considered the Solar System's ninth planet. In the late 1970s, following the discovery of minor planet 2060 Chiron in the outer Solar System and the recognition of Pluto's relatively low mass, its status as a major planet began to be questioned.[8] In the late 20th and early 21st century, many objects similar to Pluto were discovered in the outer Solar System, notably the scattered disc object Eris in 2005, which is 27% more massive than Pluto.[9] On August 24, 2006, the International Astronomical Union (IAU) defined what it means to be a "planet" within the Solar System. This definition excluded Pluto as a planet and added it as a member of the new category "dwarf planet" along with Eris and Ceres.[10] After the reclassification, Pluto was added to the list of minor planets and given the number 134340.[11][12]

Is there astrology related to Chiron and Eris as well?

James50

Originally Posted by James50

I am sorry if I sound like a smart alec, but what has astrology done with the fact there are officially only 8 planets now. Pluto has been demoted.

Is there astrology related to Chiron and Eris as well?

James50

Pluto was assigned to Scorpio in modern Astrology IIRC. Also there's still 9 planets it New Mexico. They've voted to not recognize the reclassification. After all they're home to where Pluto was "discovered". It is the only American discovered planet... intriguing when you think about the symbolism associated with Pluto.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by James50

I am sorry if I sound like a smart alec, but what has astrology done with the fact there are officially only 8 planets now. Pluto has been demoted.

Is there astrology related to Chiron and Eris as well?

James50

Hah, I've been reading a book by Eris' discoverer Mike Brown called How I Killed Pluto, and Why It Had It Coming. Very interesting and quite funny. I actually find Sedna to be more of a jaw-dropper than Eris, it's the first Oort Cloud object ever found and had an orbital period of 11,000 years.

even before Eris I was in support of demoting Pluto, it's just a wayward Kuiper Belt object in a 2:3 orbital resonance with Neptune

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

In the past, golden ages have been catalyzed and organized by good leadership, although that's not more important than bottom-up inspiration. But a society led by George W. Bush could not rise up to become the golden age it could have been. Sandra Day O'Connor cheated us out of our destiny.

I know you posted a longer post on how America isn't in position to have a "Golden Age", it made me go back and look at the so-called "Golden Ages" and re-examine them.

Athenian Golden Age - occurred after the establishment of Democracy, but eventually turned on Democracy after it was seen to be little better than mob rule.

Roman Golden Age - occurred after the Emperors had established themselves and asserted their authority over the empire by quieting dissinters.

Elizabethan Golden Age - occurred during a police state, where anyone who questioned the Queen was tried for treason and swiftly dealt with. It continued on as King James came to the throne and then became about flattering the King's vanity and convince him to do something to bring order about to the country.

Spanish Golden Age - occured while the Spanish Inquisition was "purifying" the country and eventually evolved into trying to motivate the King to try and salvage the country before everything was lost.

Quite frankly the main reason we haven't had a Golden Age is because we haven't had an opressive government to do battle with, or have a government that had needed inspiring--which were the main themes of most Golden Ages, with the Athenian one being the only exception.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I know you posted a longer post on how America isn't in position to have a "Golden Age", it made me go back and look at the so-called "Golden Ages" and re-examine them.

Athenian Golden Age - occurred after the establishment of Democracy, but eventually turned on Democracy after it was seen to be little better than mob rule.

Roman Golden Age - occurred after the Emperors had established themselves and asserted their authority over the empire by quieting dissinters.

Elizabethan Golden Age - occurred during a police state, where anyone who questioned the Queen was tried for treason and swiftly dealt with. It continued on as King James came to the throne and then became about flattering the King's vanity and convince him to do something to bring order about to the country.

Spanish Golden Age - occured while the Spanish Inquisition was "purifying" the country and eventually evolved into trying to motivate the King to try and salvage the country before everything was lost.

Quite frankly the main reason we haven't had a Golden Age is because we haven't had an opressive government to do battle with, or have a government that had needed inspiring--which were the main themes of most Golden Ages, with the Athenian one being the only exception.

~Chas'88

I came to this conclusion today, especially after seeing a couple of movies that depict various 1Ts and 3Ts. And all of the gossip just because a character wants to maybe, wear a black hat?!?

I have been doing a lot of reading on police states and I could see how there are attempts to push us towards one. I'll keep my conspiracy theory side away from this board.

Anyway, do you think we are far from a total police state/ Golden Age because we are at the tail of a mega Awakening? Our 1T has not been linked up with our Mega High in a while? (Note, I'm still learning about these terms, but am also responding to comments from other recent threads)

Originally Posted by millennialX

I came to this conclusion today, especially after seeing a couple of movies that depict various 1Ts and 3Ts. And all of the gossip just because a character wants to maybe, wear a black hat?!?

I have been doing a lot of reading on police states and I could see how there are attempts to push us towards one. I'll keep my conspiracy theory side away from this board.

Anyway, do you think we are far from a total police state/ Golden Age because we are at the tail of a mega Awakening? Our 1T has not been linked up with our Mega High in a while? (Note, I'm still learning about these terms, but am also responding to comments from other recent threads)

How was The Age of Innocence, my friend? I'm sure you found the whole NY society part opressive.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

How was The Age of Innocence, my friend? I'm sure you found the whole NY society part opressive.

~Chas'88

Very!!! And I made the welcomed mistake of watching "Gosford Park" right after and just feel even more oppressed. I like living in my current 4T, thank you! I mean even the servants where snobs in that film. And the characters have all that wealth, yet seem so bored with life.

As I type this, I just realized I pretty much saw films that slightly book end that Saeculum.

Anyway, despite not wanting to live during those times, both films are well done especially in tone, acting and production design.

Originally Posted by millennialX

Very!!! And I made the welcomed mistake of watching "Gosford Park" right after and just feel even more oppressed. I like living in my current 4T, thank you! I mean even the servants where snobs in that film. And the characters have all that wealth, yet seem so bored with life.

As I type this, I just realized I pretty much saw films that slightly book end that Saeculum.

Anyway, despite not wanting to live during those times, both films are well done especially in tone, acting and production design.

It does and my congrats to you sitting through both very good films. Do you see what I mean when I say 1870s = 1950s? I always saw how May portrayed the outer image of a sweet innocent with a pawn-moving interior to perfectly parallel the Silent pre-Awakening image of womanly perfection that Pat, The Grey Badger has described to a T.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by James50

I am sorry if I sound like a smart alec, but what has astrology done with the fact there are officially only 8 planets now. Pluto has been demoted.

The astronomers didn't succeed in taking Pluto out of the sky.
Astrologers know that Pluto is very significant. But, it is true my whole theory of the cycles of civilization falls into oblivion without Pluto. It is a good question. Looking at the evidence astronomically, I think there is still grounds for calling it a planet. However, they still call it a planet (although a "dwarf" planet, of which there are now about 4 others). So as long as the dwarf planets are mentioned, with Pluto as the most prominent one, not much has changed.

They demoted Pluto mostly because it's too small. But they also claim that "it didn't clear its orbit." However, none of the planets from Mars outward have cleared their orbit. They all move amongst swarms of centaurs, trojans, asteroids and plutinos that cross their orbits, most discovered recently.

Pluto may be small, but if you add its large Moon, it's still larger than Eris, and much larger than the other dwarfs and "plutoids" (dwarfs and small dwarfs beyond Neptune). Charon, Pluto's Moon, rotates at exactly the same speed that it orbits Pluto. They are always in the same place related to each other. An observer on either would see the other in the same place all the time. So far there is no other planetary system like it. This fact confirms a lot of what astrologers have said about Pluto-- that it represents ecology and inter-relationship, sex, power, concentration, etc.

Is there astrology related to Chiron and Eris as well?

James50

Indeed so. Only some of the planets seem to be related to civilization and social cycles though. The trinity of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto move in a 1-2-3 proportion to each other in the length of their orbits. So, not only because I came up with my theories before they were discovered, but checking on them, I don't see too much evidence for the significance of Eris, Chiron or other dwarfs and minor planets historically in terms of cycles. Eris has a 560-year orbit, not much more than the cycle of civilization of 493; and moves in too irregular a way to create conjunction cycles with it. It has been in Aries for about a century now. Chiron, it turns out, is not even the largest of the "centaurs" that orbit between and amongst Saturn and Uranus. But it does figure in some important charts.

Chiron is a favorite among astrologers. It seems significant, in personal charts; but perhaps not so much cyclically; although other astrologers have thought so. Sometimes 50 years, or double that, can be significant. Recently in 2009, Chiron, which astrologers have dubbed "the wounded healer," aligned for months with both Jupiter and Neptune together, which I used to forecast successfully well before it happened that health care reform WOULD pass. Remember that seemed unlikely at one point. Earlier in my book I predicted it would indicate a year in which healing took place.

Where Chiron is in your chart may indicate some healing ability, perhaps resulting from a wound or crisis you have dealt with. When it passes a major point in your chart, it might indicate a shock or sudden change. I think it is unlikely to be reliable by itself; other indications are needed to confirm.

Centaurs may only last in the solar system for 1 to 10 millions years, having been former Kuiper Belt objects thrown downward by Pluto (lord of the underworld) and Neptune. After a while they may fall closer to the Sun and become comets. Chiron's discovery in 1977 coincided with discovery of new age tools of personal transformation, and the high tech tools that gave people access to computers. It is a "key" linking visible and invisible realms. Then in 1978 America entered its long period of political regression, which we are still in. That could be symbolized by the fact that centaurs gradually fall downward, and are temporary. Some say we are also learning to "integrate" our past and include it in our future. Discovery in the 1990s and 2000s of Kuiper Belt Objects may symbolize our potential to move upward and onward again-- I hope it happens soon.

So how's that for a long answer to a smart-alec remark
I hope you enjoyed it.

what "clearing the orbit" means is that there are no objects of similar size in the same area of orbital space. Pluto and Eris have not cleared their orbits by that definition.

Then there is Sedna, which seems to be an Oort Cloud object at the perihelion of it's orbit of 11,000 years.

I don't like the new labels, I would prefer the labels "Major Planet" and "Minor Planet" be used, the later was a term is used for asteroids and comets in very old (pre-1960) astronomy books I've read.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

I know you posted a longer post on how America isn't in position to have a "Golden Age", it made me go back and look at the so-called "Golden Ages" and re-examine them.

Athenian Golden Age - occurred after the establishment of Democracy, but eventually turned on Democracy after it was seen to be little better than mob rule.

Roman Golden Age - occurred after the Emperors had established themselves and asserted their authority over the empire by quieting dissinters.

Elizabethan Golden Age - occurred during a police state, where anyone who questioned the Queen was tried for treason and swiftly dealt with. It continued on as King James came to the throne and then became about flattering the King's vanity and convince him to do something to bring order about to the country.

Spanish Golden Age - occured while the Spanish Inquisition was "purifying" the country and eventually evolved into trying to motivate the King to try and salvage the country before everything was lost.

Quite frankly the main reason we haven't had a Golden Age is because we haven't had an opressive government to do battle with, or have a government that had needed inspiring--which were the main themes of most Golden Ages, with the Athenian one being the only exception.

~Chas'88

Thanks for bringing this up again; yesterday I had some more thoughts on this topic.

Some people when I bring this up say, "we are only not in a golden age if you define it to exclude technology" or that "all art is the same" (comparing our movies to Shakespeare, etc.). It is tough to prove, but I think a golden age happens when there is a relative national or cultural consensus of confidence, and a degree of creativity (in the arts, but also in less-practical kinds of science) that stands the test of time. Some of our movies are pretty good, but no I don't think Avatar or even Citizen Kane compares to Shakespeare. Not to mention our horrible TV shows and pop music. And we don't have a consensus of confidence.

As for your point about police states, that only applies because all societies of earlier times were police states. There is also a long list of other golden ages in many cultures. I listed most of them in my book in the chapter I reference earlier:

http://philosopherswheel.com/fortunes.htm

Recently I saw Michael Wood's show on India, and noted how their golden ages followed the cycle. The Neptune-Pluto conjunction propels a new civilization that reaches a golden age about 100 to 150 years later.

Often a golden age is propelled by victory in war. But we HAD a victory, and a potential dawn of world peace too; and not only did we not let this victory inspire us, we decided instead to create more war. It was disappointing indeed.

The fact that I note however, which Jerry Brown has also mentioned, is that we CAN move into a golden age in America today. I note also that America has not yet ever had a golden age. Brian suggested that our first turning and early second was a golden age. And yet he is quite clear about his criticism of that era. It does not meet my definition of a golden age by a long shot. A "spirit-dead" era (as S&H called it) is not a golden age. There needs to be tremendous inspiration propelling it. Often it is spiritual, but at the least there is a secular-sacred balance. The 1950s were entirely secular, except for what was merely traditionally-religious.

But there was an undercurrent in the later 1st Turning that blossomed more fully in the 2T. It was in the 1960s that we entered a time that COULD HAVE BEEN a golden age. I think the assassination of the Kennedys were the decisive blows that killed it; that, and the decision by our leaders then, and since then, to devote our resources to unneeded wars instead of creativity and advancement. Plus, some major scandals have diverted attention and further spoiled consensus and confidence.

America itself is too poorly-educated, in spite of our many great universities. These have tended to enforce conformity to uninspired notions of art, and have made science into a religion-- these two things (plus the emphasis on material success in our culture) killing off any chance they could elicit inspiration. It came instead from the counter-culture and new age movements. But these have, so far, had flaws that have been fatal to creating a golden age. There has been too much emphasis in our alternative cultures on pleasure and success-- even though they are supposed to lead us beyond materialism. It takes dedication and commitment to create great art. That has not been there either, in sufficient degree, in our alternative cultures.

But some major flickers of creativity and inspiration have indeed occurred over the last 50 years. You have to look on the fringes to find them. There is no consensus, and too much cynicism. These are the main reasons we have not entered a golden age. But we still could.

Astrologically, the best time looked like the 1990s. Monica Lewinsky spoiled it. But the Spanish and English golden ages you mentioned came somewhat later on the cycle (later than 100 years after Neptune-Pluto conjunctions), and so have some other golden ages. Our own society still has some cyclic resonance with the last English-speaking golden age, and so it is still possible that it lies ahead of us, in the 21st century sometime. But there will have to be monumental changes in American culture before such a golden age is even possible.

We can't be in denial about global warming and sustainability, if we are to have any chance. Golden ages do depend on some amount of prosperity. But we can't be deceived that material wealth or military superiority and empire alone are suitable goals any longer for our society, rather than creative achievement. We can't deny spirituality, or be beholden to outdated views of it. We need greater confidence and consensus. Endemic cynicism is not a basis for a golden age. Neither is complete materialist secularism.

That is the question; is a golden age even possible for our society? In the near future, in the 21st century, in the 25-26th century; or ever?

Originally Posted by Odin

what "clearing the orbit" means is that there are no objects of similar size in the same area of orbital space. Pluto and Eris have not cleared their orbits by that definition.

Those two are much larger than the other objects. "Similar size" seems vague, given that the other outer planets also have many minor planets in their orbits.

I don't like the new labels, I would prefer the labels "Major Planet" and "Minor Planet" be used, the later was a term is used for asteroids and comets in very old (pre-1960) astronomy books I've read.

Asteroids and comets do not describe the newly-discovered plutoids, plutinos, KBOs, scattered-disc objects, Sedna-like Ort Cloud objects (there is a term for that too, I forget), trojans, and centaurs that have been discovered recently. We need those terms. Dwarf planet is good IMO because it raises a few of them into a higher class, which they deserve (especially Pluto, of course; but then, I DO have an interest in Pluto being seen as more important, as I think it is).

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Thanks for bringing this up again; yesterday I had some more thoughts on this topic.

Some people when I bring this up say, "we are only not in a golden age if you define it to exclude technology" or that "all art is the same" (comparing our movies to Shakespeare, etc.). It is tough to prove, but I think a golden age happens when there is a relative national or cultural consensus of confidence, and a degree of creativity (in the arts, but also in less-practical kinds of science) that stands the test of time. Some of our movies are pretty good, but no I don't think Avatar or even Citizen Kane compares to Shakespeare. Not to mention our horrible TV shows and pop music. And we don't have a consensus of confidence.

As for your point about police states, that only applies because all societies of earlier times were police states. There is also a long list of other golden ages in many cultures. I listed most of them in my book in the chapter I reference earlier:

http://users.sfo.com/~eameece/fortunes.htm

Recently I saw Michael Wood's show on India, and noted how their golden ages followed the cycle. The Neptune-Pluto conjunction propels a new civilization that reaches a golden age about 100 to 150 years later.

Often a golden age is propelled by victory in war. But we HAD a victory, and a potential dawn of world peace too; and not only did we not let this victory inspire us, we decided instead to create more war. It was disappointing indeed.

The fact that I note however, which Jerry Brown has also mentioned, is that we CAN move into a golden age in America today. I note also that America has not yet ever had a golden age. Brian suggested that our first turning and early second was a golden age. And yet he is quite clear about his criticism of that era. It does not meet my definition of a golden age by a long shot. A "spirit-dead" era (as S&H called it) is not a golden age. There needs to be tremendous inspiration propelling it. Often it is spiritual, but at the least there is a secular-sacred balance. The 1950s were entirely secular, except for what was merely traditionally-religious.

But there was an undercurrent in the later 1st Turning that blossomed more fully in the 2T. It was in the 1960s that we entered a time that COULD HAVE BEEN a golden age. I think the assassination of the Kennedys were the decisive blows that killed it; that, and the decision by our leaders then, and since then, to devote our resources to unneeded wars instead of creativity and advancement. Plus, some major scandals have diverted attention and further spoiled consensus and confidence.

America itself is too poorly-educated, in spite of our many great universities. These have tended to enforce conformity to uninspired notions of art, and have made science into a religion-- these two things (plus the emphasis on material success in our culture) killing off any chance they could elicit inspiration. It came instead from the counter-culture and new age movements. But these have, so far, had flaws that have been fatal to creating a golden age. There has been too much emphasis in our alternative cultures on pleasure and success-- even though they are supposed to lead us beyond materialism. It takes dedication and commitment to create great art. That has not been there either, in sufficient degree, in our alternative cultures.

But some major flickers of creativity and inspiration have indeed occurred over the last 50 years. You have to look on the fringes to find them. There is no consensus, and too much cynicism. These are the main reasons we have not entered a golden age. But we still could.

Astrologically, the best time looked like the 1990s. Monica Lewinsky spoiled it. But the Spanish and English golden ages you mentioned came somewhat later on the cycle (later than 100 years after Neptune-Pluto conjunctions), and so have some other golden ages. Our own society still has some cyclic resonance with the last English-speaking golden age, and so it is still possible that it lies ahead of us, in the 21st century sometime. But there will have to be monumental changes in American culture before such a golden age is even possible.

We can't be in denial about global warming and sustainability, if we are to have any chance. Golden ages do depend on some amount of prosperity. We can't be deceived that material wealth or military superiority and empire alone are suitable goals any longer for our society, rather than creative achievement. We can't deny spirituality, or be beholden to outdated views of it. We need greater confidence and consensus. Endemic cynicism is not a basis for a golden age. Neither is complete materialist secularism.

That is the question; is a golden age even possible for our society? In the near future, in the 21st century, in the 25-26th century; or ever?

Remember Sturgeon's Law: "95% of everything is crap". There is plenty of stuff made in the last 70 years that will last the test of time. I think people will be reading the works of Steinbeck and performing the plays of Arthur Miller a 1000 years from now. Same with the great movies of the 20th Century.

Originally Posted by Odin

Remember Sturgeon's Law: "95% of everything is crap". There is plenty of stuff made in the last 70 years that will last the test of time. I think people will be reading the works of Steinbeck and performing the plays of Arthur Miller a 1000 years from now. Same with the great movies of the 20th Century.

I don't agree with Sturgeon's Law. Some cultures create better things than others. We produce mostly crap because that's what we're interested in producing. But it's true that some important literary works were produced in America in the 1920s and mid-century.

What is being produced now (not 70-60 years ago) that will stand the test of time? This was supposed to be our golden age. The 1940s was not; it was all about war.

I wrote a paragraph on my website article "Planetary Dynamics" suggesting the symbolic meaning of Pluto's demotion. It happened during the Bush administration, as did discovery of Eris. The times when planets are discovered have signified great changes and discoveries in consciousness and society that are associated with the planet coming into consciousness, according to astrologers like me. Uranus in 1781 meant the coming of revolution, democracy, individual liberty, the rights of man, electricity and batteries, the invisible light spectrum, industrial inventions, etc. Neptune in 1846 meant nationalism, socialism, spiritualism, transcendentalism, anaesthetics, oil, ocean transport, mass migration, impressionism, etc. Pluto was discovered in 1930, and while Clyde was working on it in 1929 and thereabouts, major discoveries and changes happened in physics (indeterminacy, complementarity), biology (ecology), math (Godel's theorem), psychology (bio-energetics, Jungian psychology, Heidegger's existentialism); things now associated with Pluto. The stock market crash opened the way to the Great Depression and the New Deal. Thus, Uranus is the planet of the 18th century, whose events all led toward the Revolution. Neptune was the planet of the 19th century, from its early pre-manifestations (romanticism, utopian socialism) onward.

And Pluto was the planet of the 20th century. Percival Lowell began looking for it about the time it made a conjunction with Neptune. Much like what happened with Neptune and its conjunction with Uranus in 1821, he suspected (wrongly, it turned out) that his Planet X was disturbing Neptune's orbit. Nevertheless, despite being wrong, Clyde Tombaugh found it within 6 degrees of where Lowell predicted.

From the time of the conjunction in the early 1890s onward, Pluto began coming into human awareness. That was when socialism began to be adapted in democratic society, as well as fomenting revolutions in the East. By 1933 the New Deal brought a watered-down socialism to America, and Britain and Western Europe followed this path after WWII. Primitivism and sexual revolution have been major 20th century trends since Freud, Picasso and Reich, not to mention jazz, ragtime, counter-cultures, and rock music. Depth psychology has changed our view of ourselves and each other. Society has become much more international, and ethnic and other outcast groups have gained their rights. Scientific research has become ever-deeper and more thorough, and modern physics led to atomic energy.

Pluto's conjunction to revolutionary Uranus in the mid-1960s also brought Pluto further to the fore. Ecology has led us to consider ourselves as part of the web of life, each part necessary to the whole. Holistic philosophy has had a similar effect on medicine and self-healing. The peace movement brought an end to a war fought by a major power (the USA) for the first time. Our mutual survival and interdependence has been brought home to us by the threats to it during the 20th century. In general, Pluto is all about confronting death, seeking out the depths of life, and bringing them to the surface to generate renewal and rebirth.

The Bush administration and the Tea Party are all about "the demotion of Pluto." Symbolically, they are about trying to put everything gained in the 20th century back into the closet. The New Deal and Great Society have been rolled back, and prosperity now belongs only to a privileged few. Free expression of sexual energy is discouraged and censored. The spiritual quest is forsaken in order to keep us bound to the old time religion. Science is seen as less important than traditional religion, especially when considering questions of pollution, ecology and global warming. The lessons of the peace movement were ignored so that Bush could start a war of choice. In every way, the Republicans have sought to create a society without Pluto and the 20th century. It is highly symbolic that this is the time when Pluto has been demoted. It may be that when Pluto gets respect again, so will the 20th century.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I wrote a paragraph on my website article "Planetary Dynamics" suggesting the symbolic meaning of Pluto's demotion. It happened during the Bush administration, as did discovery of Eris. The times when planets are discovered have signified great changes and discoveries in consciousness and society that are associated with the planet coming into consciousness, according to astrologers like me. Uranus in 1781 meant the coming of revolution, democracy, individual liberty, the rights of man, electricity and batteries, the invisible light spectrum, industrial inventions, etc. Neptune in 1846 meant nationalism, socialism, spiritualism, transcendentalism, anaesthetics, oil, ocean transport, mass migration, impressionism, etc. Pluto was discovered in 1930, and while Clyde was working on it in 1929 and thereabouts, major discoveries and changes happened in physics (indeterminacy, complementarity), biology (ecology), math (Godel's theorem), psychology (bio-energetics, Jungian psychology, Heidegger's existentialism); things now associated with Pluto. The stock market crash opened the way to the Great Depression and the New Deal. Thus, Uranus is the planet of the 18th century, whose events all led toward the Revolution. Neptune was the planet of the 19th century, from its early pre-manifestations (romanticism, utopian socialism) onward.

Pluto was the planet of the 20th century. Percival Lowell began looking for it about the time it made a conjunction with Neptune. Much like what happened with Neptune and its conjunction with Uranus in 1821, he suspected (wrongly, it turned out) that his Planet X was disturbing Neptune's orbit. Nevertheless, despite being wrong, Clyde Tombaugh found it within 6 degrees of where Lowell predicted.

From the time of the conjunction in the early 1890s onward, Pluto began coming into human awareness. That was when socialism began to be adapted in democratic society, as well as fomenting revolutions in the East. By 1933 the New Deal brought a watered-down socialism to America, and Britain and Western Europe followed this path after WWII. Primitivism and sexual revolution have been major 20th century trends since Freud, Picasso and Reich, not to mention jazz, ragtime, counter-cultures, and rock music. Depth psychology has changed our view of ourselves and each other. Society has become much more international, and ethnic and other outcast groups have gained their rights. Scientific research has become ever-deeper and more thorough, and modern physics led to atomic energy.

Pluto's conjunction to revolutionary Uranus in the mid-1960s also brought Pluto further to the fore. Ecology has led us to consider ourselves as part of the web of life, each part necessary to the whole. Holistic philosophy has had a similar effect on medicine and self-healing. The peace movement brought an end to a war fought by a major power (the USA) for the first time. Our mutual survival and interdependence has been brought home to us by the threats to it during the 20th century. In general, Pluto is all about confronting death, seeking out the depths of life, and bringing them to the surface to generate renewal and rebirth.

The Bush administration and the Tea Party are all about "the demotion of Pluto." Symbolically, they are about trying to put everything gained in the 20th century back into the closet. The New Deal and Great Society have been rolled back, and prosperity now belongs only to a privileged few. Free expression of sexual energy is discouraged and censored. The spiritual quest is forsaken in order to keep us bound to the old time religion. Science is seen as less important than traditional religion, especially when considering questions of pollution, ecology and global warming. The lessons of the peace movement were ignored so that Bush could start a war of choice. In every way, the Republicans have sought to create a society without Pluto and the 20th century. It is highly symbolic that this is the time when Pluto has been demoted. It may be that when Pluto gets respect again, so will the 20th century.

Oh come on, this is nonsense. Pluto was demoted because of the scientific merits, it was destined to be demoted as more and larger Kuiper Belt Objects came trickling in, Bush had nothing to do with it.

I suggest you read How I Killed Pluto, And Why it Had It Coming by Eris' discoverer, Caltech astronomer Michael Brown. Hysterically funny.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I don't agree with Sturgeon's Law. Some cultures create better things than others. We produce mostly crap because that's what we're interested in producing. But it's true that some important literary works were produced in America in the 1920s and mid-century.

What is being produced now (not 70-60 years ago) that will stand the test of time? This was supposed to be our golden age. The 1940s was not; it was all about war.

All societies mostly produce crap that doesn't last because most people in all societies like crap. it's the best that survives to today. This creates an illusion that the past was so much better than the present.

There is plenty of good music out there if you know where to look. Check out the Indie Rock scene.

Also, the traditional visual arts have decayed into academic pretentiousness because of photography and video. The new frontier of the arts is interactive media, including video games. Check out the role-playing game Final Fantasy 7, it has a brilliant cyberpunk plot which is awash in environmental and anti-corporate themes

Originally Posted by Odin

Oh come on, this is nonsense. Pluto was demoted because of the scientific merits, it was destined to be demoted as more and larger Kuiper Belt Objects came trickling in, Bush had nothing to do with it.

I suggest you read How I Killed Pluto, And Why it Had It Coming by Eris' discoverer, Caltech astronomer Michael Brown. Hysterically funny.

Yes, it is nonsense. It is symbolic, and only means something if you take the planets and their discovery as significant symbols of social change and cultural trends, because discovery and conjunctions of planets coincide with them. If you are only looking at the astronomical science, then of course it is nonsense.

And besides, Mr. Brown did not kill Pluto. It's still there in all its glory.

Originally Posted by Odin

All societies mostly produce crap that doesn't last because most people in all societies like crap. it's the best that survives to today. This creates an illusion that the past was so much better than the present.

I don't agree at all. If you look at all the shows about other cultures, what you see is that in most places, the common people dedicate themselves to art and spirituality to a fantastic degree and produce beautiful things. We don't; it's as simple as that.

There is plenty of good music out there if you know where to look. Check out the Indie Rock scene.

Also, the traditional visual arts have decayed into academic pretentiousness because of photography and video. The new frontier of the arts is interactive media, including video games. Check out the role-playing game Final Fantasy 7, it has a brilliant cyberpunk plot which is awash in environmental and anti-corporate themes

Well the point is, you have to look, and look hard. Nothing good is given any press because it is not commercial enough. Most indie rock and video games is crap too, although there is some good rock today. But it does not inspire society widely. The rock music in the 1960s did that, at least. The visual arts declined long before video; it was their definition of art and music that killed it in universities, which did not inspire creativity. The best music and art is found in visionary/ambient/new age circles, though most of that is crap too. But today this music and art is not given any exposure.

The point is not that there is nothing good today. I think per capita, the arts have declined a great deal. Yet there are still lots of creative people around and good things being created in many fields, as there are in most times. The point is, we have the potential to do better, given our unique time in history, and we haven't. And not only in arts, but in politics, etc.

Seriously, "indie rock" is a horrible way to defend modern music. It is like asking someone to search a hundred visually-identical haystacks to find the one needle that isn't a whiny ballad.

Conversely though, memorizing PitchFork's top 10 list is probably a good way to get social credibility among the gatekeepers of "cool" in millie culture.

Also, what are Japanese video games supposed to inform us about America's relative artistic output?

And most of the art I saw selling for millions at Art Basel would never live up to my own standards of artistic/technical pretentiousness: Just artistically ignorant consumers getting ripped off buying a worthless product.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

Seriously, "indie rock" is a horrible way to defend modern music. It is like asking someone to search a hundred visually-identical haystacks to find the one needle that isn't a whiny ballad.

Conversely though, memorizing PitchFork's top 10 list is probably a good way to get social credibility among the gatekeepers of "cool" in millie culture.

Also, what are Japanese video games supposed to inform us about America's relative artistic output?

And most of the art I saw selling for millions at Art Basel would never live up to my own standards of artistic/technical pretentiousness: Just artistically ignorant consumers getting ripped off buying a worthless product.

Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel.

I was just using FF7 as an example of an artistic video game in general, not specifically American.

And I agree with you that most visual artwork nowadays in total dreck, Impressionism was the peak of Western visual art and it then went rapidly downhill.

Originally Posted by Odin

Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel.

4T is a terrible time for art and artists

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

4T is a terrible time for art and artists

I like 30's Jazz and Big Band. Am I crazy?

In a lot of ways, that was just a toning down and repackaging of rural and African jazz & blues of the 1890s-1920s for white, suburban audiences. The dance speed slows down significantly and controversial social & political topics are purged in favor of just having fun. All the while suburban whites are enjoying this, the original "hot jazz" spots are getting shut down and raided for marijuana, immigration, etc...

Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, IMO, there aren't many very good recordings of the music from the 1890s to 1920s, but the 30s and 40s are still kind of a reflection of it.

2T rock bands went back to the source and straight up ripped off the old "spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads" that Wikipedia credits with originally creating blues and jazz, and from the sheet music I've seen I think they captured the "spirit" of it more accurately while still being able to make use of new advanced technologies (electric guitars) that were originally pioneered & improved by civics like Les Paul in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Originally Posted by JohnMc82

In a lot of ways, that was just a toning down and repackaging of rural and African jazz & blues of the 1890s-1920s for white, suburban audiences. The dance speed slows down significantly and controversial social & political topics are purged in favor of just having fun. All the while suburban whites are enjoying this, the original "hot jazz" spots are getting shut down and raided for marijuana, immigration, etc...

Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, IMO, there aren't many very good recordings of the music from the 1890s to 1920s, but the 30s and 40s are still kind of a reflection of it.

2T rock bands went back to the source and straight up ripped off the old "spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads" that Wikipedia credits with originally creating blues and jazz, and from the sheet music I've seen I think they captured the "spirit" of it more accurately while still being able to make use of new advanced technologies (electric guitars) that were originally pioneered & improved by civics like Les Paul in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Agreed, this is a subject we touched upon in one of my Music classes. Not only was it toned down though in the 1930s and 1940s, it was also toned down in the white speakeasies and clubs in the 1920s (that were whites only--except for the musicians; talk about hypocrisy).

~Chas'88