At least when it comes to "democracy."

And, I guess they do have a point, if that was part of the reasoning behind the invasion of Iraq.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

Wow!
Go away fro a few days and a middle eastern 4T is catalyzed!
And judging from the secular nature of the protests, such as the fact that the poor want lower bread prices and the college educated want a real future, this looks very outer world oriented to me. ::

Add to that the fact that the Moslem Brotherhood seems to be flat footed in their response to the situation.

One other thing I will add for now is the fact that I happened to see a bit of the FOX news 'reporting' and the neocon slant of their coverage is disgusting. It's only my opinion but from what I've observed they are likely to pitch the idea of massive American involvement to support, umm, well heck, it means contracts for Haliburton and that's good enough for some people.

Oh, it's good for Halliburton, so it's good enough for me
Give me that old time corruption, give me that old time corruption, give me that old time corruption, and hope some trickles down.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I watched quite a bit of the coverage last night on CNN. (I haven't turned it on today.) But one of the things that struck me is was what one of their analysis said. This person commented on how the Egyptian people were disappointed that our government hasn't come out in stronger support of their cause...

Two comments about that:

1) Did the commenter actually show some evidence that at least one Egyptian person in Egypt actually thinks that? Like maybe having that person say so for themselves? Otherwise it's just a TeeVee talking face making claims about unverifiable stuff.

2) If an american journalist from an american news outlet were to interview a person, wouldn't it stand to reason that one of the questions that journalist would pose might be "what do you think about what america is doing/not doing?" The response to that question would reflect an opinion, to be sure, but not necessarily one that was anywhere significant to the respondent -- the question of what america is doing might not even be something Egyptians really think about at all, unless they are directly asked to think about it.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Two comments about that:

1) Did the commenter actually show some evidence that at least one Egyptian person in Egypt actually thinks that? Like maybe having that person say so for themselves? Otherwise it's just a TeeVee talking face making claims about unverifiable stuff.

2) If an american journalist from an american news outlet were to interview a person, wouldn't it stand to reason that one of the questions that journalist would pose might be "what do you think about what america is doing/not doing?" The response to that question would reflect an opinion, to be sure, but not necessarily one that was anywhere significant to the respondent -- the question of what america is doing might not even be something Egyptians really think about at all, unless they are directly asked to think about it.

The context of the statement came about because that particular segment on the news was focusing on Twitter and Facebook and how they were tools in the revolution. I believe those statements were from things that had been posted on those websites by Egyptians.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Oh, it's good for Halliburton, so it's good enough for me
Give me that old time corruption, give me that old time corruption, give me that old time corruption, and hope some trickles down.

One more time sister!

Give me that old time corruption...

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by herbal tee

Wow!
Go away fro a few days and a middle eastern 4T is catalyzed!
And judging from the secular nature of the protests, such as the fact that the poor want lower bread prices and the college educated want a real future, this looks very outer world oriented to me. ::

Add to that the fact that the Moslem Brotherhood seems to be flat footed in their response to the situation.

One other thing I will add for now is the fact that I happened to see a bit of the FOX news 'reporting' and the neocon slant of their coverage is disgusting. It's only my opinion but from what I've observed they are likely to pitch the idea of massive American involvement to support, umm, well heck, it means contracts for Haliburton and that's good enough for some people.

Yup. the Near East be 4T. Iran Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria are now going into a 2T as well. Arabia is probably on the same time line as Egypt, SA had a 4T going from the founding of the kingdom in the 20s to the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948.

Originally Posted by Odin

Yup. the Near East be 4T. Iran Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria are now going into a 2T as well. Arabia is probably on the same time line as Egypt, SA had a 4T going from the founding of the kingdom in the 20s to the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948.

For more proof that Egypt is 4Ting and not 2Ting:

With Police Absent, Egyptians Arm Themselves to Protect Neighborhoods

CAIRO -- When Egypt's police melted from the streets of Cairo this weekend, the people stepped in.

Civilians armed with knives, axes, golf clubs, firebombs, metal bars and makeshift spears watched over many neighborhoods in the sprawling capital of 18 million this weekend, defending their families and homes against widespread looting and lawlessness.

The thugs had exploited the chaos created by the largest anti-government protests in decades and the military failed to fill the vacuum left by police.

On Saturday, the army sent out an appeal for citizens to help.

"The military encourages neighborhood youth to defend their property and their honor," it said in a statement.

On Sunday, joint teams of civilians and military were patrolling, some with guard dogs.

Mohammed Gafaar, a 34-year old salesman in the Nasr City area, said his neighborhood watch organized soon after the night curfew went into force at 4 p.m. They did it at the behest of residents, who appealed for protection of their property, sending out the call from the local mosque.

"I feel betrayed by the police," said Gaafar, who had carried rocks, a stick and a firebomb in a soda bottle. "They have to be tried for the protesters they killed and for their treason. They left the country to be looted. I am angry at the regime."

...

Residents said they were filled with pride to see Egyptians looking out for each other in a society where many, if not most, struggle just to subsist.

Gaafar, the salesman, had returned from Dubai to take part in the protests. He said he feels sad at how things turned out, but believes it won't deter people from continuing to protest.

"This has brought out the best in people," he said. "There were people who were much younger than me who have never come across gunfire before... They looked scared. But they were still standing. Everyone was so brave."

Read the whole article, here.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

For more proof that Egypt is 4Ting and not 2Ting:



Read the whole article, here.

~Chas'88

That's definitely 4T.

It will interesting to see how it all turns out. I have a feeling the president will be overthrown, but it might take a while. The last reports I heard, the military is not fighting the people. So that's a good sign for the Egyptian people. But the big question that remains is who will take over? The whole democracy thing hasn't exactly worked out too well in Iraq and Afghanistan. But then those situations are different. There were outside forces in play with Iraq and Afghanistan. This time it's the people who are rising up. So it might turn out better for Egypt. However, there is still a good possibility that Taliban type people could take over. And look at what happened to Iran when the Shaw was overthrown.

Still, I have no doubt that we have CIA people over there working behind the scenes already. Egypt is just way too important to us, for us not to somehow get involved and try and steer the ship. We just can't help ourselves. We are just too greedy not to try and play God.

Oh sure we are. The world news on TV - one of the main channels - walked us through the Realpolitik as if it were a given. Item: Mubarak was an SOB, but he was our SOB.

Item: The oil (Egypt has OIL?) must flow. Phraseology from Dune used on purpose.

Item: "Oh, noes, the Islamic Brotherhood, they be Terrorists!" -- though other sources say "No, they be radicals, but not terrorists; that's why Osama Bin Laden broke with them. They weren't up for violence and he was."

et-tiresome-cetera.

And Hillary Clinton gave Egypt an irritated-mother scolding as she told them what to do. Now, *there's* a way to make friends and influence people in someone else's country.

And on top of that, the "Hip, hip, HUZZAH Egypt is getting a real Western-style democracy out of this!" usual gang of idiots.

Can nobody spell S E L F D E T E R M I N A T I O N ? Whether it suits US or not?

John Xenakis, who can drive me absolutely mad at times, offered the most cogent statement in the entire mess of garbage. "Many news stories deal endlessly with what the Obama administration should do. Needless to say, what the Obama administration does will have no predictable effect whatsoever on what happens in Egypt. "

Originally Posted by ASB65

It will interesting to see how it all turns out. I have a feeling the president will be overthrown, but it might take a while. The last reports I heard, the military is not fighting the people. So that's a good sign for the Egyptian people. But the big question that remains is who will take over? The whole democracy thing hasn't exactly worked out too well in Iraq and Afghanistan. But then those situations are different. There were outside forces in play with Iraq and Afghanistan. This time it's the people who are rising up. So it might turn out better for Egypt. However, there is still a good possibility that Taliban type people could take over. And look at what happened to Iran when the Shaw was overthrown.

Still, I have no doubt that we have CIA people over there working behind the scenes already. Egypt is just way too important to us, for us not to somehow get involved and try and steer the ship. We just can't help ourselves. We are just too greedy not to try and play God.

This is a murky situation, but I expect the military to force Mubarak out( quietly if possible). I think that the desire for power and control may be larger factors than simple greed. In any case we have been trying to control too much of the world lately. We should mind our own business , although I become hawkish when our national interests are at stake.

Originally Posted by radind

This is a murky situation, but I expect the military to force Mubarak out( quietly if possible). I think that the desire for power and control may be larger factors than simple greed. In any case we have been trying to control too much of the world lately. We should mind our own business , although I become hawkish when our national interests are at stake.

I think we should mind our own business too. But it's not just the oil that is important to us in Egypt. It's the strategic location of it too. I heard them say on the news that their ports are very important to us as that is where a lot of oil is shipped out of too. Plus Egypt has 1/4 of the Arabic population of the world. So I think there are several factors in play with us. We give several billions of dollars to Egypt in foreign aid each year to stay on their good side. Whoever ends up in charge, you better believe we are going to want to get in good with them. The question will be whether or not they will want to be friends with us. But if we continue to give them enough money, I'm sure that we can sway them.

The Suez Canal stopped being critical to our oil supply a long time ago. Supertankers can't go through it. However, Egypt has been critical as the one large consistently pro-US, and pro-Israel (at least by comparison!) state in the region.

Taking the long view, I think it's fair to say that if the crisis results in a real democracy--which I'm not at all convinced it will--then the Muslim Brotherhood will at the very least become a major party, which, democracy being what it is, will eventually come into power. Of course, its equivalent is now in power in Turkey, and the world hasn't come to an end there, but Turkey's tradition of militant secularism seems to be dying. Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak represented militant secularism in Egypt as well. Incidentally, there is already talk in Israel of Obama being the President who lost Egypt, the way Carter was the President who lost Iran, but thanks to George W. Bush's anti-realist rhetoric, the Republicans aren't saying anything like that. Wait a minute, I'm curious. . ..Bill Kristol at Weekly Standard wants the fastest possible transition to Egyptian democracy.

All this is clearly inevitable but I don't know that it's going to be very good for anyone any time soon. It's in the hands of the Arab peoples, and Islam seems to be the most important motivating force among them these days.

This is what happens when we build Bannana Republics. We have noone to blame but ourselves. This kind of practice needs to go way for the future saeculums.

We didn't build modern Egypt, although we've helped keep it where it is with $2-3 billion a year in aid since 1979. The present government is the survival of the Arab nationalist movement. Let's see, Mubarak is 82, to he was 24 when it began--the last of the Hero generation, it seems.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Oh sure we are. The world news on TV - one of the main channels - walked us through the Realpolitik as if it were a given. Item: Mubarak was an SOB, but he was our SOB.

Item: The oil (Egypt has OIL?) must flow. Phraseology from Dune used on purpose.

Item: "Oh, noes, the Islamic Brotherhood, they be Terrorists!" -- though other sources say "No, they be radicals, but not terrorists; that's why Osama Bin Laden broke with them. They weren't up for violence and he was."

et-tiresome-cetera.

And Hillary Clinton gave Egypt an irritated-mother scolding as she told them what to do. Now, *there's* a way to make friends and influence people in someone else's country.

And on top of that, the "Hip, hip, HUZZAH Egypt is getting a real Western-style democracy out of this!" usual gang of idiots.

Can nobody spell S E L F D E T E R M I N A T I O N ? Whether it suits US or not?

John Xenakis, who can drive me absolutely mad at times, offered the most cogent statement in the entire mess of garbage. "Many news stories deal endlessly with what the Obama administration should do. Needless to say, what the Obama administration does will have no predictable effect whatsoever on what happens in Egypt. "

Very well put. I thought I was the only Kennanite left. And for me and John Xenakis to agree, this must be serious indeed. . . .John Bolton, by the way, thinks we should save Mubarak. It is an interesting moment for neocons.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

By the way, a prominent Israeli historian once declared that if an Islamist regime ever came to power in either Egypt or Jordan, the West Bank would be cleansed of Palestinians on the spot.

I'm sorry, explain this for me please. Cleansed how, by whom and where.

Originally Posted by James50

.

My other thought: Saudi Arabia will be the last to go.

James50

Next is Jordan, and then SA.

Originally Posted by jadams

I'm sorry, explain this for me please. Cleansed how, by whom and where.

Cleansed by the Israelis who would drive the Palestinians over the border into Jordan. There was apparently a serious plan to do that during the 1990-1 Gulf War, too.

Originally Posted by jadams

Next is Jordan, and then SA.

I am not suggesting that we can, or should, try to affect what is going to happen, but I would caution everyone against the delusion, which dominates our op-ed pages this morning, that any of this is going to be very good for us or the people involved.

The majority of Jordan is Palestinian in origin. If the current regime fell they would be the likely successor regime. The Israelis would announce that the Palestinians have their state, that they have no need of another one, and, very likely, begin cleansing the West Bank.

A very good friend of mine, an Air Force colonel, now retired, was an attache in Saudi Arabia a few years ago. He returned and told us that, without question, the royal family was the only thing standing in the way of a Taliban regime there. There is no liberal opposition in Saudi Arabia.

I am working on a long blog post on all this which will appear later in the week.

More proof that Egypt be 4T, from Twitter:

bencnn

People in Tahrir managing litter, keeping it cleaner than the government ever could.
#Egypt #Jan25
15 minutes ago via web

LOL!

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

A very good friend of mine, an Air Force colonel, now retired, was an attache in Saudi Arabia a few years ago. He returned and told us that, without question, the royal family was the only thing standing in the way of a Taliban regime there. There is no liberal opposition in Saudi Arabia.

Why is is totally unsurprising that a lifelong Establishment Man, having spent time liaising between his ruling class and the ruling elites in a foreign country would naturally assume that representation (or lack thereof) of a viewpoint among elites is the only thing that matters? Like, if there are no Big Men leading a Political Movement for "liberalism"... then there is no such thing as liberalism in that place.

Fortunately for the inhabitants of the real world, the views of the Court and its men -- more important, the limitations and blinders they keep around those views -- aren't the net sum of reality (even, aren't the main thing). Nikolas II, Louis VXI, and Ceauşescu, among others, had to find that out the hard way.

Man, Justin, I love your first-hand knowledge of all things Eastern European. Somehow, I have a feeling that will come in handy in the next few years.

Just a few more headlines to share re: the Middle East.

Jordan's king fires Cabinet amid protests

Iran's parliament ousts Ahmadinejad's ally

Hackers' Help Get Egypt Protesters Back Online

Originally Posted by Odin

More proof that Egypt be 4T, from Twitter:



LOL!

Also, according to NPR & BBC News, families are taking their children with them to the protest. I think its also partly as a sign to show they respect the military for saying that they won't shoot them.

~Chas'88

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41363935...ideastn_africa

President Hosni Mubarak announced late Tuesday that he would not run for another term in office, but whether Egyptians would allow him to remain in office until elections in the fall was uncertain.

Hum...is this good enough for the Egyptian people? And the next question is if he does remain in office until then, will he hand pick his successor and rig the election?