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Thread: See What Tunisia Started? - Page 3







Post#51 at 02-01-2011 05:59 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41363935...ideastn_africa



Hum...is this good enough for the Egyptian people? And the next question is if he does remain in office until then, will he hand pick his successor and rig the election?
Interesting. That was what I heard Senator John Kerry propose on NPR's "Morning Edition" this morning while I was doing dishes and making breakfast.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#52 at 02-01-2011 06:38 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41363935...ideastn_africa



Hum...is this good enough for the Egyptian people? And the next question is if he does remain in office until then, will he hand pick his successor and rig the election?
That seems to be the question.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#53 at 02-02-2011 04:15 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Wow, Anderson Cooper and his crew got beat up in Egypt, by Mubarak supporters. Things are starting to get real ugly over there.







Post#54 at 02-02-2011 04:31 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Real Mubarak supporters? Or Da Police? Any likelihood that this is the fuzz in plain clothes, sent out by Mubarak to make his point?
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#55 at 02-02-2011 04:41 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Real Mubarak supporters? Or Da Police? Any likelihood that this is the fuzz in plain clothes, sent out by Mubarak to make his point?
Well, I'm not sure. I just heard what Anderson Cooper said. He called them supporters of Mubarak. Apparently they just came up and started hitting him and his producer in the head and kicking them.

Here is a link to an article about it.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/02/an...cked-in-cairo/







Post#56 at 02-02-2011 06:53 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Yup. the Near East be 4T. Iran Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria are now going into a 2T as well. Arabia is probably on the same time line as Egypt, SA had a 4T going from the founding of the kingdom in the 20s to the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948.
I'm beginning to agree with you about that one.

Asmaa Mahfouz, a young woman who posted a vlog that went viral in Egypt about protests, seems like more of a Civic to me than a Prophet. Link here







Post#57 at 02-03-2011 09:08 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Protests in Yemen

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41401994...ideastn_africa

More than 20,000 Yemenis filled the streets of Sanaa on Thursday for a "day of rage" rally, demanding a change in government and saying President Ali Abdullah Saleh's offer to step down in 2013 was not enough.







Post#58 at 02-03-2011 11:41 AM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
Well, I'm not sure. I just heard what Anderson Cooper said. He called them supporters of Mubarak. Apparently they just came up and started hitting him and his producer in the head and kicking them.

Here is a link to an article about it.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/02/an...cked-in-cairo/
Mubarak supporters were yelling and threatening Christiane Amanpour, too. One of the ABC News programs ran the story late last night, with journalists saying they were hiding their cameras while out in public, because so many of Mubarak's supporters blame media coverage of the protests as the reason Mubarak is having to step down.

When Amanpour questioned why these supporters were angry at them, they responded that they hated Americans. She asked why, and they said, "because you're evil." The mob chased Amanpour's crew, kicked their car doors and broke the windshield as they sped away. More here.

Egypt's situation gets more interesting every day.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#59 at 02-03-2011 11:47 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Mubarak supporters were yelling and threatening Christiane Amanpour, too. One of the ABC News programs ran the story late last night, with journalists saying they were hiding their cameras while out in public, because so many of Mubarak's supporters blame media coverage of the protests as the reason Mubarak is having to step down.

When Amanpour questioned why these supporters were angry at them, they responded that they hated Americans. She asked why, and they said, "because you're evil." The mob chased Amanpour's crew, kicked their car doors and broke the windshield as they sped away. More here.

Egypt's situation gets more interesting every day.
And this is one of the fears that I think many of us have about who would actually take over if Mubarak does step down. I believe that radicals (like the Taliban or members of Al Qaeda) could very easily cease control of the government.







Post#60 at 02-03-2011 12:06 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Those aren't Mubarak supporters attacking journalists. They're Mubarak's paid goons (I think the media refers to them as 'plainclothes policemen'). They're terribly small in number, compared to the mass of the popular uprising, but since they are better-funded, better-equipped, and much, much, much more naturally inclined to violence (paid to engage in it, even)... they show up disproportionally often in news coverage.

As for e-e-evil co-opting Egypt once America's boy finally finishes falling? I suppose it's always a possibility (an eventuality, even, since the protesters seem to be aiming to replace, not abolish their rulers... but frequent, bloody changes of kings are at least a move in the right direction). On the other hand, one of the most frequent chants being shouted these last several days over there (a distant second, granted to "God is great" -- which everyone can agree on) is along the lines of, "Muslim, Christian, we're all Egyptian". My evidence-free guess is that the odds of this turning out 'pretty well' are at least decent.


Right now, it's just awe-inspiring to watch people who actually care about freedom actually doing something about it. Plus, if you pay attention, there's the tactical side. Which is interesting in its own right, and who knows? maybe even useful someday...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#61 at 02-03-2011 12:24 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Those aren't Mubarak supporters attacking journalists. They're Mubarak's paid goons (I think the media refers to them as 'plainclothes policemen'). They're terribly small in number, compared to the mass of the popular uprising, but since they are better-funded, better-equipped, and much, much, much more naturally inclined to violence (paid to engage in it, even)... they show up disproportionally often in news coverage.

As for e-e-evil co-opting Egypt once America's boy finally finishes falling? I suppose it's always a possibility (an eventuality, even, since the protesters seem to be aiming to replace, not abolish their rulers... but frequent, bloody changes of kings are at least a move in the right direction). On the other hand, one of the most frequent chants being shouted these last several days over there (a distant second, granted to "God is great" -- which everyone can agree on) is along the lines of, "Muslim, Christian, we're all Egyptian". My evidence-free guess is that the odds of this turning out 'pretty well' are at least decent.


Right now, it's just awe-inspiring to watch people who actually care about freedom actually doing something about it. Plus, if you pay attention, there's the tactical side. Which is interesting in its own right, and who knows? maybe even useful someday...
Now this is an interesting twist. You are being the optimist and I'm being the pessimist. I do hope you are right, Justin, that this does turn out well. And I agree it is exciting to see the people standing up for themselves. I do hope it does turn out to be very good for them and the rest of the world.







Post#62 at 02-03-2011 12:38 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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That War Nerd piece was pretty interesting, too.

While I think there are some Mubarak supporters -- those who would resist change, even if change would improve their lives -- it does appear that many of them are the hired goons you suggest they are.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#63 at 02-03-2011 12:38 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Sure... call me an optimist.

Part of it is simply that these don't look much like the kind of people al-Q rolls with:





"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#64 at 02-03-2011 12:40 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
While I think there are some Mubarak supporters....
Oh, totally. Not just the people who get money from him, either. I bet his mom is totally on his side, too. And he's got to have at least a couple old high school buds...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc ętre dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant ŕ moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce ętre dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#65 at 02-03-2011 12:48 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Oh, totally. Not just the people who get money from him, either. I bet his mom is totally on his side, too. And he's got to have at least a couple old high school buds...
LOL.

Makes you think about who would be the "hard line supporters" in a revolution here. If it's a conservative/libertarian revolution, what would the FAR left do? If a liberal/progressive revolution, what would the FAR right do?
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#66 at 02-03-2011 01:53 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Apparently, journalists are being arrested now in Egypt. Huffington Post reports NYT journalists have been arrested, and CNN is reporting that a London Times reporter was attacked; other protesters took her into a store and locked it to avoid her being killed.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#67 at 02-03-2011 05:12 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Those aren't Mubarak supporters attacking journalists. They're Mubarak's paid goons (I think the media refers to them as 'plainclothes policemen'). They're terribly small in number, compared to the mass of the popular uprising, but since they are better-funded, better-equipped, and much, much, much more naturally inclined to violence (paid to engage in it, even)... they show up disproportionally often in news coverage.

As for e-e-evil co-opting Egypt once America's boy finally finishes falling? I suppose it's always a possibility (an eventuality, even, since the protesters seem to be aiming to replace, not abolish their rulers... but frequent, bloody changes of kings are at least a move in the right direction). On the other hand, one of the most frequent chants being shouted these last several days over there (a distant second, granted to "God is great" -- which everyone can agree on) is along the lines of, "Muslim, Christian, we're all Egyptian". My evidence-free guess is that the odds of this turning out 'pretty well' are at least decent.


Right now, it's just awe-inspiring to watch people who actually care about freedom actually doing something about it. Plus, if you pay attention, there's the tactical side. Which is interesting in its own right, and who knows? maybe even useful someday...
Yes! freedom might be a virus...tactics...hmmm...
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#68 at 02-03-2011 11:28 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Apparently, journalists are being arrested now in Egypt. Huffington Post reports NYT journalists have been arrested, and CNN is reporting that a London Times reporter was attacked; other protesters took her into a store and locked it to avoid her being killed.
I had to pass this funny fb status along that one of my friends posted

Anderson Cooper...Bring your sexy self back home !
And on that note, I think it's time for Anderson Cooper to come on CNN. I think I'll go upstairs now and turn on the TV to see how my boy, Anderson is doing tonight. Hope is he alright.







Post#69 at 02-03-2011 11:52 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#70 at 02-03-2011 11:56 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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A good friend of mine is Egyptian and he is in the middle of things, although he admits he didn't get completely involved until the 28th. He is hoping for the best and doing what he can to make that happen. He said that the first demonstrators were people in their 20s.

He wants Mubarak out. But he has since I met him 15 years ago. This is despite the fact that his family has been very successful. This is about his country.

This is about Egypt. Not the US (and my friend is a US citizen). I don't think this is going to go away and it's not about Hamas or influences outside of Egypt.







Post#71 at 02-04-2011 02:19 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Right now, it's just awe-inspiring to watch people who actually care about freedom actually doing something about it. Plus, if you pay attention, there's the tactical side. Which is interesting in its own right, and who knows? maybe even useful someday...
I find it interesting that the author of that piece contrasted the attitude of the Egyptian protesters compared to the Iranians.

Unfortunately, the problem with the Iranian protestors is that they’re mostly the educated nice types, so they dragged away the few sensible people who were trying to do the logical thing: kicking the bike guys to death. No way to win a war, you poor Tehran yuppies. We’re just primates here, and the best thing you could do is bash your enemies’ head in while you got the chance. Ah well, too late now.From what I saw of the Cairo cavalry charge, it didn’t look like the Cairo protestors were as squeamish as those overcivilized Tehranites.
Could this be a contrast between the behavior of Adaptives/Idealists and Reactives/Civics?







Post#72 at 02-04-2011 05:15 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Is it just my imagination runnin' away with me, or are the Coptic Christians inordinately overrepresented among the pro-Mubarak crowd?

But my problem with the radic-libs is that they refuse to even recognize that there is, in the world today, a fundamental clash of ideas, between the heirs to the Athenian archetype on one side (the Western modernizers) and the heirs to the Spartan archetype on the other (the Islamists). Indeed, the only difference between this clash and the Cold War is that the main point of contention was economic then, and social and cultural now.

Which is why, as far back as the spring of 1993, I labeled the current conflict "The Second Cold War" - a label that no one else out there, not even the necons, seems to have warmed up to.

Moreover, this is nothing new; indeed, it is almost a constant throughout modern, and even medieval and ancient, history - thus the Athenian vs. Spartan analogy fits the paradigm perfectly.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#73 at 02-04-2011 07:37 AM by Tussilago [at Gothenburg, Sweden joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,500]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Maybe if secularism were not associated with brutal, US-backed tyrants folks in the Middle East would think differently.

Cultural Modernity cannot be imposed on a society, it must develop as a result of industrialization, it is industrialization that makes secular, tolerant culture possible. It is industrialization that removes the environmental selection pressures that encourage patriarchy and authoritarian religion.

Also, democracy forces Islamist parties to become more moderate over time. Turkey's Islamists are quite mild by comparison with the rest of the Middle East.
While I probably agree in principle, I hesitate to draw conclusions about cultures so radically different from my own. That's one of the lessons that massive, politically imposed immigration to Sweden has taught me. Egypt has been on the track of modernity since the early 19th century and still it's the country where the Islamic Brotherhood was founded. Why?

Though Mubarak is a US-Israeli puppet and a tool of Neocon power in the region - when he is ousted everyone will be able to breathe a little easier - the problem remains that the Muslim Brotherhood is the only force of opposition that is both organized and strong in Egypt. So however my sympathies go to the young people in the streets, especially the women who reject the hijab and want a modern and secular Egypt, there is reason to fear the Islamists will be the ones who will have the last laugh. They are certainly intent at using the revolt to take over the reigns of power if the opportunity presents itself, be sure of that.

Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
Is it just my imagination runnin' away with me, or are the Coptic Christians inordinately overrepresented among the pro-Mubarak crowd?
The positioning of the Copts in this matter is highly salient. Judging from recent Muslim violence before the revolt began, the Copts stand first in line to suffer wholesale persecution the moment an Islamic Democracy establishes itself.
Last edited by Tussilago; 02-04-2011 at 07:54 AM.
INTP 1970 Core X







Post#74 at 02-04-2011 08:13 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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And not for nothing, but if the Muslim Brotherhood wins a "democratic" election in Egypt - and they almost certainly will - the real winners will be the neocons, who will use the outcome of that ballot to paint all Muslims, or at least the vast majority of them anyway, as enemies that need to be defeated, by any means necessary. They will then be able to paint non-Islamists within the Muslim world as weird heretics rather than "moderates."

Thus the table for World War III will be set.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#75 at 02-04-2011 08:58 AM by Tussilago [at Gothenburg, Sweden joined Jan 2010 #posts 1,500]
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Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
And not for nothing, but if the Muslim Brotherhood wins a "democratic" election in Egypt - and they almost certainly will - the real winners will be the neocons, who will use the outcome of that ballot to paint all Muslims, or at least the vast majority of them anyway, as enemies that need to be defeated, by any means necessary. They will then be able to paint non-Islamists within the Muslim world as weird heretics rather than "moderates."

Thus the table for World War III will be set.
Yes, I sure can see it. A warmongerer's dream come true.
INTP 1970 Core X
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