Originally Posted by Linus

I guess he won't be getting a pyramid.

I hope the guy they elect is worthy of them and worthy of a pyramid.

That seems to be the million dollar question. I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way, I'm very happy for the Egyptian people that they got their revolution with relatively little loss of life. I just hope it turns this well for them in the future.

Originally Posted by Linus

I guess he won't be getting a pyramid.

I hope the guy they elect is worthy of them and worthy of a pyramid.

A joke going around Israel is "Don't destroy your pyramids. We're not coming back to rebuild them!".

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

A joke going around Israel is "Don't destroy your pyramids. We're not coming back to rebuild them!".

Love that joke.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I'm very happy for the Egyptian people that they got their revolution with relatively little loss of life. I just hope it turns this well for them in the future.

They haven't gotten it yet. Mubarak just handed over power to the guy he appointed VP all of a week ago -- a guy well-known in Egypt (and becoming better-known outside) for being the chief torturer employed by the regime. Suleiman is known to have tortured prisoners himself, even well after he, as the head of that Directorate, had plenty of people to do the work for him. This is a guy who, to all appearances, enjoys hurting people with his own hands.

If the Egyptian Revolution ends now, it will have failed. This is just step 1.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

They haven't gotten it yet. Mubarak just handed over power to the guy he appointed VP all of a week ago -- a guy well-known in Egypt (and becoming better-known outside) for being the chief torturer employed by the regime. Suleiman is known to have tortured prisoners himself, even well after he, as the head of that Directorate, had plenty of people to do the work for him. This is a guy who, to all appearances, enjoys hurting people with his own hands.

If the Egyptian Revolution ends now, it will have failed. This is just step 1.

They just said on the news that the army is in charge now. I'm confused.

Seeing the signs of joy in Cairo reminds me once again of the human desire for freedom that can be thwarted at times, but which never goes away.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Seeing the signs of joy in Cairo reminds me once again of the human desire for freedom that can be thwarted at times, but which never goes away.

James50

No to rain on your parade, but 30 years is a long sabbatical. People were born, lived and died under repression. We should al keep that in mind. We should also rememeber that it's been 44 years and counting for the Palestinians. For the Saudis, it was ever thus.

I could go on with my list, but it's too long.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

No to rain on your parade, but 30 years is a long sabbatical. People were born, lived and died under repression. We should al keep that in mind. We should also rememeber that it's been 44 years and counting for the Palestinians. For the Saudis, it was ever thus.

I could go on with my list, but it's too long.

I am not sure what you point is except to point out that many in the world are still not free. The joy of freedom, whether personal or corporate, remains.

James50

Originally Posted by James50

I am not sure what you point is except to point out that many in the world are still not free. The joy of freedom, whether personal or corporate, remains.

James50

That was my point. There are far more people on the planet living under autocratic rule than those living free. Freedom is actually a rarity, though it should be the universal state. As a world, we can get there. Give it another 2 or 3 saecula.

Originally Posted by Odin

Oh for Christ's sake. The Muslim Brotherhood will NOT be taking power in Egypt except at most as a junior coalition partner, if that. Quit listing to the Corporate McPravda hysteria.

Sorry to snow on your parade. (Oklahoma has just set all sorts of records for winter weather, like -25 lows (not a windchill or something in centigrade.) ) Revolutions have a way of going bad. Cf. Russia Iran, and France.

So Rag's best US response would be.

1. A statement like "The future of Egypt should be decided by Egyptians only." No other statements in regard to support to some faction or another should be made.

2. An excellent time to repudiate the MIC. A nice time to state that the US shall start reviewing military ties (bases, renditions, etc.) and end them pronto. Closing bases and shrinking the military budget is a time whose time has long come and gone. At least the Egyptians would see this as real progress in whatever course they choose.

3. Also an excellent time to shut down our 2 wars of choice.

All would defuse quite a bit of Arab anger towards the US and be a start towards redirecting our budget priorities for domestic needs like infrastructure, etc. I know the Like of Halliburten and Big Oil won't like this withdrawal of "military subsidies, but so what". More $ for mass transit/locally produced energy.

4. If we do #3, even is something like Hamas happens in Egypt, we can just blow it off.

Originally Posted by ASB65

They just said on the news that the army is in charge now. I'm confused.

Don't be confused. You got it right. Remember that big meeting yesterday that the military had without Mubarak? The one that "tricked" our clueless intelligence agency into believing that Mubarak would step down? Well, you don't need cameras in the presidential palace to know that, after that meeting, very serious men in dress uniforms visited Mubarak and told him that he'd leave office or they'd remove him.

You've just watched a bloodless coup d'état. Realistically, that was the only way this whole thing could have ended. While brave, the protestors offered no alternative to Mubarak or the existing order. They quite happily allowed themselves to be penned into Tahrir Square when the military wanted them to be there, and they dutifully marched on the palace when the military opened up the pen.

The fireworks on the square are cool and all, and if this results in an ordered transition to a freer and more democratic Egypt, that's awesome. However, one thing to keep in mind was what I said on January 29th:

Originally Posted by Semo '75

The big story yesterday was that the Muslim Brotherhood came off the fence in favor of the protests. Since then, the group has changed its tune -- its official line now is that only a military coup can save Egypt. That's one hell of an about face. The obvious read there is that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't think it will benefit if the protestors win.

This is not to say that the Muslim Brotherhood engineered this coup, because I don't think it did. Even so, this result is what the organization called for. Now we get to see if the coup results in an orderly transition to democracy, a benign military dictatorship, or something darker.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

Don't be confused. You got it right. Remember that big meeting yesterday that the military had without Mubarak? The one that "tricked" our clueless intelligence agency into believing that Mubarak would step down? Well, you don't need cameras in the presidential palace to know that, after that meeting, very serious men in dress uniforms visited Mubarak and told him that he'd leave office or they'd remove him.

You've just watched a bloodless coup d'état. Realistically, that was the only way this whole thing could have ended. While brave, the protestors offered no alternative to Mubarak or the existing order. They quite happily allowed themselves to be penned into Tahrir Square when the military wanted them to be there, and they dutifully marched on the palace when the military opened up the pen.

The fireworks on the square are cool and all, and if this results in an ordered transition to a freer and more democratic Egypt, that's awesome. However, one thing to keep in mind was what I said on January 29th:



This is not to say that the Muslim Brotherhood engineered this coup, because I don't think it did. Even so, this result is what the organization called for. Now we get to see if the coup results in an orderly transition to democracy, a benign military dictatorship, or something darker.

You know what? Your scenario makes more sense to me than anything I've heard so far regarding this revolution. I have sat and watched this coverage for the 2 1/2 weeks trying to make sense of it all. It just didn't seem realistic to me that a country could suddenly over throw a dictator who has been in place for 30 years by just protesting. (Not to mention the fact that it happened this quickly.) There has been some violence and some loss of life. But when you consider what most revolutions look like, the loss of life is pretty damn small.

I believe your analysis is correct. The people of Egypt may have started this, but they could not have been successful, this quickly, if the military wasn't behind it. I think the military seized the opportunity. It is also possible the people already knew the military would be on their on side. I remember the first days after the protest began, the people cheered when the military rolled into town.

The other thing I want to mention. Yesterday morning as I watching the coverage on CNN about the announcement that Mubarak was planning on making a speech and stepping down, there was message that appeared at the bottom of the screen that read..."Breaking News: The military will take control (Or is in charge). I can't recall exactly what it said. But it did mention that the military either was or would be taking over.

And like you, what the rest of this means...I don't know. I've misplaced my crystal ball these days.

Just heard today that there are now demonstrations in the Algerian capital of Algiers. We'll have to see if they are next, but it looks like they may very well be. Does remind me a little bit of when the dominoes fell in the old Communist bloc of nations over two decades ago, but this is far noisier, so far--with the exception of Romania and the former Yugoslavia.

Originally Posted by ASB65

You know what? Your scenario makes more sense to me than anything I've heard so far regarding this revolution. I have sat and watched this coverage for the 2 1/2 weeks trying to make sense of it all. It just didn't seem realistic to me that a country could suddenly over throw a dictator who has been in place for 30 years by just protesting. (Not to mention the fact that it happened this quickly.) There has been some violence and some loss of life. But when you consider what most revolutions look like, the loss of life is pretty damn small.

I believe your analysis is correct. The people of Egypt may have started this, but they could not have been successful, this quickly, if the military wasn't behind it. I think the military seized the opportunity. It is also possible the people already knew the military would be on their on side. I remember the first days after the protest began, the people cheered when the military rolled into town.

The other thing I want to mention. Yesterday morning as I watching the coverage on CNN about the announcement that Mubarak was planning on making a speech and stepping down, there was message that appeared at the bottom of the screen that read..."Breaking News: The military will take control (Or is in charge). I can't recall exactly what it said. But it did mention that the military either was or would be taking over.

And like you, what the rest of this means...I don't know. I've misplaced my crystal ball these days.

I haven't misplaced mine.

I think there is a certain respect among the military for the people in Egypt. They told Mubarek to leave because otherwise they would have had to fire on the people at the presidential palace, with many deaths. The people were determined and capable, and 304 of them had already died for the rest of them. Beyond the nature of the military itself, the quickness of the success of this revolution didn't depend on the military; they were bystanders. It happened quickly because of the social media, and because it was time for it to happen. It was in the stars.

The trend of people power began in the 60s. It worked then, and again in the 1980s. In a sense, it's the same revolution that began then. That's the method of choice now. It's the ongoing cycle of revolution that began in the 60s.

That said, it didn't work in Iran; not yet. Or in China. The military, if it doesn't sympathize with the people, can still crush people power. But for how long?

And in the case of Iran 2009 or China 1989, the oppressive regime had been itself revolutionary originally, and was still supported as such.

I think dominoes will keep falling over the next several years. But this is a big year. Look for April to be more violent.

Why are you forecasting that it will be more violent by April? Is it because that is when the desert areas being to get hot?(weatherwise, that is)
Lest not forget, however, that quite often when a despotic regime is toppled, another takes its place. Think Cuba in 1959. Of course, in that scenario we thought that Castro would be a good guy, but we got fooled. It will be up to the people in these countries to make sure that they don't get fooled the way the Cubans did, IMO.

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

Why are you forecasting that it will be more violent by April? Is it because that is when the desert areas being to get hot?(weatherwise, that is)
Lest not forget, however, that quite often when a despotic regime is toppled, another takes its place. Think Cuba in 1959. Of course, in that scenario we thought that Castro would be a good guy, but we got fooled. It will be up to the people in these countries to make sure that they don't get fooled the way the Cubans did, IMO.

A Who song comes to mind.

April is always a more violent month. But astrology is my crystal ball, and using the rules of astrology, April looks like a more violent month. It has to do with the positions of Mars, Saturn and other planets. I don't know if it will happen in Egypt. I think some of the other Mid-East dominoes are more difficult. Iran especially. And there are other trouble spots around the world, like Korea.

Each scenario is different. So far the army is respecting the strongly-expressed wishes of the people, and they know that if they betray the people, they will take stones in their hands again and march on the palace. The Egyptians are determined to have their freedom, and that is hard for despots to stop forever. The new leaders have already dissolved the rubber-stamp parliament and suspended the despotic constitution. Those are good signs already.

We'll get on our knees and pray.... we don't get fooled again!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

A Who song comes to mind.

April is always a more violent month. But astrology is my crystal ball, and using the rules of astrology, April looks like a more violent month. It has to do with the positions of Mars, Saturn and other planets. I don't know if it will happen in Egypt. I think some of the other Mid-East dominoes are more difficult. Iran especially. And there are other trouble spots around the world, like Korea.

Each scenario is different. So far the army is respecting the strongly-expressed wishes of the people, and they know that if they betray the people, they will take stones in their hands again and march on the palace. The Egyptians are determined to have their freedom, and that is hard for despots to stop forever. The new leaders have already dissolved the rubber-stamp parliament and suspended the despotic constitution. Those are good signs already.

We'll get on our knees and pray.... we don't get fooled again!

April's also my 25th birthday.

Originally Posted by ASB65

You know what? Your scenario makes more sense to me than anything I've heard so far regarding this revolution. I have sat and watched this coverage for the 2 1/2 weeks trying to make sense of it all. It just didn't seem realistic to me that a country could suddenly over throw a dictator who has been in place for 30 years by just protesting. (Not to mention the fact that it happened this quickly.) There has been some violence and some loss of life. But when you consider what most revolutions look like, the loss of life is pretty damn small.

I believe your analysis is correct. The people of Egypt may have started this, but they could not have been successful, this quickly, if the military wasn't behind it. I think the military seized the opportunity. It is also possible the people already knew the military would be on their on side. I remember the first days after the protest began, the people cheered when the military rolled into town.

After a certain point it was fairly obvious that the military was in control. When they wanted people at Tahrir Square, they penned them in. When they wanted people at the palace, they opened up the pen. In fact, we know now that when the military opened up the pen for the big camera-friendly march on the presidential palace, Mubarak had already fled to another palace.

I was reading Al-Jazeera this morning and there was something that struck me as interesting. I wish that I'd saved a link. The leader of one of the youth opposition groups that got the ball rolling had a big stack of her group's demands, which she assured the reporter that she'd give to the military when they established two-way communications with the opposition groups. The ol' "Don't call us, we'll call you" routine.

Today the ruling military council dissolved the Egyptian parliament and suspended the constitution, but he pointedly did not lift the emergency anti-terrorism laws that were the primary target of the demonstrators.

That's because the military intends to use them.

Think about that for a moment. A week ago, Field Marshal Mohamad Tantawi, the new ruler of Egypt, was mingling with the protestors on the square and cheering them on. Tomorrow, he is expected to issue a communique tomorrow effectively outlawing demonstrations and promising a crackdown on the forces of "chaos and disorder".

That doesn't mean that everything will go to hell, but anyone thinks that the demonstrations represent some kind of sweeping success for the opposition isn't paying attention to what's actually happening in Egypt.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

After a certain point it was fairly obvious that the military was in control. When they wanted people at Tahrir Square, they penned them in. When they wanted people at the palace, they opened up the pen. In fact, we know now that when the military opened up the pen for the big camera-friendly march on the presidential palace, Mubarak had already fled to another palace.

I was reading Al-Jazeera this morning and there was something that struck me as interesting. I wish that I'd saved a link. The leader of one of the youth opposition groups that got the ball rolling had a big stack of her group's demands, which she assured the reporter that she'd give to the military when they established two-way communications with the opposition groups. The ol' "Don't call us, we'll call you" routine.

Today the ruling military council dissolved the Egyptian parliament and suspended the constitution, but he pointedly did not lift the emergency anti-terrorism laws that were the primary target of the demonstrators.

That's because the military intends to use them.

Think about that for a moment. A week ago, Field Marshal Mohamad Tantawi, the new ruler of Egypt, was mingling with the protestors on the square and cheering them on. Tomorrow, he is expected to issue a communique tomorrow effectively outlawing demonstrations and promising a crackdown on the forces of "chaos and disorder".

That doesn't mean that everything will go to hell, but anyone thinks that the demonstrations represent some kind of sweeping success for the opposition isn't paying attention to what's actually happening in Egypt.

This morning in church, my minister liken it to the Israelites being delivered from bondage. And I'm thinking...Yeah, I think there is a little bit more to it than just God.

Bahrain Uses Tear Gas as Protesters Demand More Freedom, Jobs

Bahrain protesters take control of main square

Rioting hits Libyan city of Benghazi

Gaddafi opponents used the Facebook social networking site to call on people to go out onto the streets across Libya on Thursday for what they described as a "day of rage."

Thousands of police confront protesters in Yemen

SANAA, Yemen – Authorities flooded the streets of Yemen's capital with 2,000 police Wednesday to try to halt six days of Egypt-style demonstrations against the president of 32 years, a key U.S. ally in battling al-Qaida. One person was killed when police and protesters clashed in the southern port of Aden in the first known death during Yemen's political unrest.

Apparently, the entire Middle East will go through a series of up-with-the-people events, but I can't see them all being sucesssful. As time goes along, one regime will find a way to defuse the protests, and all the other regimes will follow suit.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Apparently, the entire Middle East will go through a series of up-with-the-people events, but I can't see them all being sucesssful. As time goes along, one regime will find a way to defuse the protests, and all the other regimes will follow suit.

Marx, you're such a Debbie Downer, or Bob Bummer to be gender correct.

~Chas'88