Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Can nobody spell S E L F D E T E R M I N A T I O N ? Whether it suits US or not?

You know you can't spell "Self determination" without "Intestinal Freedom" or "Antidotes Riflemen". One, at least, applies...

Originally Posted by Tone70

Hey Amy! So now that the armie's in charge, what do you think. Good for the CIA, no? How 'bout for Egypt's people? I have not paid close enough attention myself to yet have an opinion.

Oh I'm not a good person to answer this question. I know very little middle eastern politics. I would think that the US will try to make friends with whoever is in charge. There is a reason why we have been sending them millions of dollars in aid every year and I don't think it's out of the kindness of our hearts. I think things could get a little sticky for us if problems were to develop between Israel and Egypt though.

At this point, I'm just hoping that there will be honest and fair elections that are held and the Egyptian people do get a chance to vote in their governmental officials without the elections being rigged.

Perhaps someone else has more knowledge about these things and can give some more insight.

Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.

I'm not saying that the CIA had any influence over Mubarak either or even had any influence over this revolution (perhaps they did, but who knows for certain). But I do think we have people who are on the ground trying to determine which way the wind is going to blow over there. There is going to be individuals or certain groups or people or organizations that we are going to prefer to be in charge over others. And I do believe that we are not above providing that individual or organization help in some way. Not that we can fix an election or that we would even do that, but I'm sure that there are ways in which we can help try and stack the deck in their favor.

The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" is perfect example of how our government operates below the radar to influence outcomes in foreign countries. Anyone who believes that the CIA is this benign organization that just gathers information and doesn't do anything with that information is kidding themselves.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Oh I'm not a good person to answer this question. I know very little middle eastern politics. I would think that the US will try to make friends with whoever is in charge. There is a reason why we have been sending them millions of dollars in aid every year and I don't think it's out of the kindness of our hearts. I think things could get a little sticky for us if problems were to develop between Israel and Egypt though.

At this point, I'm just hoping that there will be honest and fair elections that are held and the Egyptian people do get a chance to vote in their governmental officials without the elections being rigged.

Perhaps someone else has more knowledge about these things and can give some more insight.

Sounds about right to me. I'm "monitoring", but not closely. The situation is currently so fluid that even the "knowledgable" are as apt to be wrong as the rest of us. So I'm defaulting to moral and hoping the people get their say. In the entirety of the region. The juvenile in me says let the chips (unfortunately made of flesh and blood) fall where they may.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.

The press has been saying that our two armies are on, "Quite close", and "Intimate", terms.

Originally Posted by ASB65

I'm not saying that the CIA had any influence over Mubarak either or even had any influence over this revolution (perhaps they did, but who knows for certain). But I do think we have people who are on the ground trying to determine which way the wind is going to blow over there. There is going to be individuals or certain groups or people or organizations that we are going to prefer to be in charge over others. And I do believe that we are not above providing that individual or organization help in some way. Not that we can fix an election or that we would even do that, but I'm sure that there are ways in which we can help try and stack the deck in their favor.

The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" is perfect example of how our government operates below the radar to influence outcomes in foreign countries. Anyone who believes that the CIA is this benign organization that just gathers information and doesn't do anything with that information is kidding themselves.

Indeed. An interesting relationship between the other activities of the CIA and the present social and economic dislocation has been drawn by Naomi Klein.

Donald Ewen Cameron is best known for his MK-ULTRA-related mind-control and behavior modification research for the CIA. Cameron was President of the American Psychiatric Association in 1952-1953. Cameron lived and worked in Albany, New York, and was involved in experiments in Canada for Project MKULTRA, a United States based CIA-directed mind control program which eventually led to the publication of the KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation manual. He is unrelated to another CIA psychiatrist, Dr. Alan Cameron, who helped pioneer psychological profiling of world leaders during the 1970s.[8]

Naomi Klein states in her book "The Shock Doctrine" that Dr Cameron's research and his contribution to the MKUltra project was actually not about mind control and brainwashing, but about "to design a scientifically based system for extracting information from 'resistant sources.' In other words, torture." [9], and citing a book from Alfred W. McCoy it further says that "Stripped of its bizarre excesses, Dr. Cameron's experiments, building upon Dr. Donald O. Hebb earlier breakthrough, laid the scientific foundation for the CIA's two-stage psychological torture method..[10]

It was during this era that Cameron became known worldwide as the first chairman of the World Psychiatric Association as well as president of the American and Canadian psychiatric associations. Cameron had also been a member of the Nuremberg medical tribunal in 1946–47.[11]

Her thesis (which I've seen elsewhere) is that current methods of disaster capitalism rely on insights into psychic dislocation pioneered by Cameron in the '50's, at the behest of the CIA.

This quote is from the WIKI article profiling Donald Ewen Cameron. Sort of highlights the extreme extent to which the CIA can go in it's "extra curricular" activities. Many sources of info are available about the more well known aspects of the CIA's illicit activities (Operation Phoenix, Chile, Guatemala, Iran...etc.). I can however point anyone interested in Dr. Cameron's "work" towards one or two works that deal specifically with the details of his experimentation on unwilling human subjects while President of the American Psychiatric Association.

So in short, in regards to the CIA, there is no "reservation"---no pale to go beyond.

Libyan soldiers burned alive for refusing to shoot protestors

I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down

And another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
One more dictator gone, a dictator gone
Another one bites the dust....

Originally Posted by Kanteai

I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down

Not just refusing to step down. They're openly dropping bombs from aircraft on protestors in the east. Fortunately, as in Egypt, at least some of those who wear the trappings of the state have been able to remember that they are, nevertheless, human beings. Every little bit of that kind of thing helps.

On a sidenote, I guess I'm incapable of being shocked at the lack of shame in people who try to compare the unions in Wisconsin to the revolutionaries in the middle east and north africa. Get back to us when you've done something that actually bothers your Rulers to the point that they react. Then we can start comparing. Otherwise, just content yourselves with being a part of a simple labor dispute. There's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

And another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
One more dictator gone, a dictator gone
Another one bites the dust....

Well, not quite yet. He was still on TV mouthing off this morning.

I did, however, hear something rather interesting on the news this morning as they were talking about how the unrest in Libya is spiking oil prices. They went on to say that analysis felt Saudi Arabia is probably the next in line to have protests. So we shall if that prediction actually comes to pass.

Originally Posted by ASB65

Well, not quite yet. He was still on TV mouthing off this morning.

Oh, he's gone. Just that, like the chicken's body once the head is off, he hasn't gotten the message quite yet. He may run around spraying blood a bit longer before he quits kicking. But the deed is done.

...analysis felt Saudi Arabia is probably the next in line to have protests. So we shall if that prediction actually comes to pass.

Insh'Allah. The House of Saud is a major force for tyranny in the region -- and as with Egypt, the Saudis are well-funded enough to be able to help their lesser neighbors keep their own populations down. I've seen rumblings from the Saudis that they might have to "assist" Bahrain with their protest problem. It would be delightful if they were too busy at home to play Nikolas I in the Middle East.

We are all better off, the more people live freer.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Oh, he's gone. Just that, like the chicken's body once the head is off, he hasn't gotten the message quite yet. He may run around spraying blood a bit longer before he quits kicking. But the deed is done.

I think i would tend to agree, more and more of his inner circle are falling away, and earlier today the Libyan Ambassador also called for him to step aside, it is just a matter of time at this point. I do find it interesting that Iran has sent ships through the Suez canal that are laying in Syria at this point, will Iran make a move to take advantage of the continuing turmoil.

Holy fuck. He might be planning on doing a lot of blood-spraying. This from a translation of his most recent speech:

"Muammar Gaddafi is the leader of the revolution, I am not a president to step down ... This is my country. Muammar is not a president to leave his post."
"I have not yet ordered the use of force, not yet ordered one bullet to be fired ... when I do, everything will burn."


We can hope for the sake of people in Libya that he's just making big noises. And that more of his forces remember who they are. Gaddhafi is going to have a tough time burning everything all on his lonesome, comes to that.

We can hope for the sake of people in Libya that he's just making big noises. And that more of his forces remember who they are. Gaddhafi is going to have a tough time burning everything all on his lonesome, comes to that.

I sure hope so.

The police departments and intelligence office in Eastern Libya have been burned and the military on that side has defected and joined the opposing forces. This was reported by an CNN reporter who is somewhere in eastern Libya but would not tell his exact location. The reporter seemed confident that the opposition movement would continue to spread westward.

Originally Posted by Kanteai

I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down

I have no sympathy for a despot/sociopath of the likes of Gaddaffi. Since he wants to be a martyr, so may it be.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...pt=T1&iref=BN1

And...


http://54yearsof-youdecide.blogspot....afi-fatwa.html

Also, I highly recommend that the US stay out of this conflagration. I support self determination, even if it destroys US elite bonds to said despots. Today's cheap oil will be tomorrow's burden. We have no business in determining the Arab world's future.

Gaddaffi is finished, it's only a matter of time before he ends up like Mussolini or Ceausescu.

Al Qaeda sets up "Islamic Emirate" in eastern Libya

Originally Posted by Xer H

Al Qaeda sets up "Islamic Emirate" in eastern Libya

In the same article

Meanwhile Libya’s deputy foreign minister told E.U. ambassadors in Tripoli al-Qaeda has set up an Islamic emirate in Derna, in eastern Libya, headed by a former U.S. prisoner at Guantanamo Bay,

However, residents in the city have told reporters there is no substance to these rumors, which they claim the Libyan government is sowing to "scare Europe."

Who to believe?

Yes, it gets more interesting by the day there. I believe we'll see some kind of resolution within the next week.

Originally Posted by Xer H

Al Qaeda sets up "Islamic Emirate" in eastern Libya

Ah yes. When it suits our elites' purposes, the ravings of a delusional tyrant are to be taken as gospel.

Didn't Saddam have a guy just like this one, back when he was losing his country, too?

Spiegel has a nice piece out.

-excerpt-

Al-Qaida's Embarrassment
Revolutions Mark Setback for Terror Group

Ben Ali has fled, Mubarak has been overthrown and Gadhafi is faltering, but al-Qaida is frustrated, because jihadists have played no role whatsoever in the great revolution in the Arab world. The terrorist organization has repeatedly tried to use propaganda to take credit for the revolts, but no one is listening.

One of the side effects of the Arab revolt is that the jihad bubble has burst, at least for now. The popular uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya have impressively demonstrated how little jihadists have to say in Arab societies. Contrary to the propaganda they have been spreading for decades, their mobilization potential is virtually nonexistent.

Their original goal -- the overthrow of the secular regimes in the Arab world -- has been achieved by others, including groups that are among the declared enemies of al-Qaida and its allies: secularists, students with a Western orientation, politically active women, people who support democracy and moderate Islamists. It isn't al-Qaida that has proven to be a vanguard, but the secular, Internet-savvy youth of the Arab world. And no one on the squares and streets, from Tunis to Benghazi, has called for a Taliban-esque theocracy, al-Qaida's vision for the Islamic world.

What an embarrassing revelation!

Originally Posted by RyanJH

Is your objection that the observation is invalid because you don't trust the source, an "Establishment Man" or is your objection that the observation is invalid because it could be wrong? Do you have any counter-evidence for conditions on the ground in Saudi Arabia?

I've been dissatisfied with my response to this very good question. Fortunately for me, someone else wrote one that gets to the core of the matter better than I was able:

...Because if there's anything the last few weeks have shown, it's that the views of a handful of "Arab decision makers" in the region are representative of the millions of people forced to live under their rule.

Yeah; that.