Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: See What Tunisia Started? - Page 8







Post#176 at 02-19-2011 03:00 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
02-19-2011, 03:00 PM #176
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Question Did you know...

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post

Can nobody spell S E L F D E T E R M I N A T I O N ? Whether it suits US or not?
You know you can't spell "Self determination" without "Intestinal Freedom" or "Antidotes Riflemen". One, at least, applies...
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#177 at 02-20-2011 04:08 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
---
02-20-2011, 04:08 PM #177
Join Date
Mar 2010
Location
Texas
Posts
5,892

Quote Originally Posted by Tone70 View Post
Hey Amy! So now that the armie's in charge, what do you think. Good for the CIA, no? How 'bout for Egypt's people? I have not paid close enough attention myself to yet have an opinion.
Oh I'm not a good person to answer this question. I know very little middle eastern politics. I would think that the US will try to make friends with whoever is in charge. There is a reason why we have been sending them millions of dollars in aid every year and I don't think it's out of the kindness of our hearts. I think things could get a little sticky for us if problems were to develop between Israel and Egypt though.

At this point, I'm just hoping that there will be honest and fair elections that are held and the Egyptian people do get a chance to vote in their governmental officials without the elections being rigged.

Perhaps someone else has more knowledge about these things and can give some more insight.







Post#178 at 02-20-2011 08:09 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
02-20-2011, 08:09 PM #178
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.







Post#179 at 02-21-2011 09:21 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
---
02-21-2011, 09:21 AM #179
Join Date
Mar 2010
Location
Texas
Posts
5,892

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.
I'm not saying that the CIA had any influence over Mubarak either or even had any influence over this revolution (perhaps they did, but who knows for certain). But I do think we have people who are on the ground trying to determine which way the wind is going to blow over there. There is going to be individuals or certain groups or people or organizations that we are going to prefer to be in charge over others. And I do believe that we are not above providing that individual or organization help in some way. Not that we can fix an election or that we would even do that, but I'm sure that there are ways in which we can help try and stack the deck in their favor.

The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" is perfect example of how our government operates below the radar to influence outcomes in foreign countries. Anyone who believes that the CIA is this benign organization that just gathers information and doesn't do anything with that information is kidding themselves.







Post#180 at 02-21-2011 02:21 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
02-21-2011, 02:21 PM #180
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Same here

Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
Oh I'm not a good person to answer this question. I know very little middle eastern politics. I would think that the US will try to make friends with whoever is in charge. There is a reason why we have been sending them millions of dollars in aid every year and I don't think it's out of the kindness of our hearts. I think things could get a little sticky for us if problems were to develop between Israel and Egypt though.

At this point, I'm just hoping that there will be honest and fair elections that are held and the Egyptian people do get a chance to vote in their governmental officials without the elections being rigged.

Perhaps someone else has more knowledge about these things and can give some more insight.
Sounds about right to me. I'm "monitoring", but not closely. The situation is currently so fluid that even the "knowledgable" are as apt to be wrong as the rest of us. So I'm defaulting to moral and hoping the people get their say. In the entirety of the region. The juvenile in me says let the chips (unfortunately made of flesh and blood) fall where they may.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#181 at 02-21-2011 02:23 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
02-21-2011, 02:23 PM #181
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Egypt is an ancient and proud nation, and I doubt very much that the CIA has been involved deeply in governing it, or that it has much influence now. I'm not sure how close Army to Army relations are either--I don't think I've ever known anyone who was involved in them.
The press has been saying that our two armies are on, "Quite close", and "Intimate", terms.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#182 at 02-21-2011 02:45 PM by Tone70 [at Omaha joined Apr 2010 #posts 1,473]
---
02-21-2011, 02:45 PM #182
Join Date
Apr 2010
Location
Omaha
Posts
1,473

There is no reservation...

Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
I'm not saying that the CIA had any influence over Mubarak either or even had any influence over this revolution (perhaps they did, but who knows for certain). But I do think we have people who are on the ground trying to determine which way the wind is going to blow over there. There is going to be individuals or certain groups or people or organizations that we are going to prefer to be in charge over others. And I do believe that we are not above providing that individual or organization help in some way. Not that we can fix an election or that we would even do that, but I'm sure that there are ways in which we can help try and stack the deck in their favor.

The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" is perfect example of how our government operates below the radar to influence outcomes in foreign countries. Anyone who believes that the CIA is this benign organization that just gathers information and doesn't do anything with that information is kidding themselves.
Indeed. An interesting relationship between the other activities of the CIA and the present social and economic dislocation has been drawn by Naomi Klein.
Donald Ewen Cameron is best known for his MK-ULTRA-related mind-control and behavior modification research for the CIA. Cameron was President of the American Psychiatric Association in 1952-1953. Cameron lived and worked in Albany, New York, and was involved in experiments in Canada for Project MKULTRA, a United States based CIA-directed mind control program which eventually led to the publication of the KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation manual. He is unrelated to another CIA psychiatrist, Dr. Alan Cameron, who helped pioneer psychological profiling of world leaders during the 1970s.[8]

Naomi Klein states in her book "The Shock Doctrine" that Dr Cameron's research and his contribution to the MKUltra project was actually not about mind control and brainwashing, but about "to design a scientifically based system for extracting information from 'resistant sources.' In other words, torture." [9], and citing a book from Alfred W. McCoy it further says that "Stripped of its bizarre excesses, Dr. Cameron's experiments, building upon Dr. Donald O. Hebb earlier breakthrough, laid the scientific foundation for the CIA's two-stage psychological torture method..[10]

It was during this era that Cameron became known worldwide as the first chairman of the World Psychiatric Association as well as president of the American and Canadian psychiatric associations. Cameron had also been a member of the Nuremberg medical tribunal in 1946–47.[11]
Her thesis (which I've seen elsewhere) is that current methods of disaster capitalism rely on insights into psychic dislocation pioneered by Cameron in the '50's, at the behest of the CIA.

This quote is from the WIKI article profiling Donald Ewen Cameron. Sort of highlights the extreme extent to which the CIA can go in it's "extra curricular" activities. Many sources of info are available about the more well known aspects of the CIA's illicit activities (Operation Phoenix, Chile, Guatemala, Iran...etc.). I can however point anyone interested in Dr. Cameron's "work" towards one or two works that deal specifically with the details of his experimentation on unwilling human subjects while President of the American Psychiatric Association.

So in short, in regards to the CIA, there is no "reservation"---no pale to go beyond.
"Freedom is not something that the rulers "give" the population...people have immense power potential. It is ultimately their attitudes, behavior, cooperation, and obedience that supply the power to all rulers and hierarchical systems..." - Gene Sharp

"The Occupy protesters are acting like citizens, believing they have the power to change things...that humble people can acquire power when they convince themselves they can." - William Greider







Post#183 at 02-22-2011 12:44 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
---
02-22-2011, 12:44 AM #183
Join Date
Sep 2008
Location
Syracuse
Posts
1,833

No matter what happens, Libya's dictator is not going to go as easily as Egypt's did








Post#184 at 02-22-2011 12:32 PM by Kanteai [at On the road joined Feb 2011 #posts 67]
---
02-22-2011, 12:32 PM #184
Join Date
Feb 2011
Location
On the road
Posts
67

I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down
Where is there dignity unless there is honesty? Cicero

I have a right to my anger, and I don't want anybody telling me I shouldn't be, that it's not nice to be, and that something's wrong with me because I get angry. Maxine Waters

Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. George Carlin







Post#185 at 02-22-2011 02:49 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
02-22-2011, 02:49 PM #185
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

And another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
One more dictator gone, a dictator gone
Another one bites the dust....
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#186 at 02-22-2011 03:02 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-22-2011, 03:02 PM #186
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by Kanteai View Post
I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down
Not just refusing to step down. They're openly dropping bombs from aircraft on protestors in the east. Fortunately, as in Egypt, at least some of those who wear the trappings of the state have been able to remember that they are, nevertheless, human beings. Every little bit of that kind of thing helps.

On a sidenote, I guess I'm incapable of being shocked at the lack of shame in people who try to compare the unions in Wisconsin to the revolutionaries in the middle east and north africa. Get back to us when you've done something that actually bothers your Rulers to the point that they react. Then we can start comparing. Otherwise, just content yourselves with being a part of a simple labor dispute. There's nothing wrong with that.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#187 at 02-22-2011 03:04 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
---
02-22-2011, 03:04 PM #187
Join Date
Mar 2010
Location
Texas
Posts
5,892

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
And another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
One more dictator gone, a dictator gone
Another one bites the dust....
Well, not quite yet. He was still on TV mouthing off this morning.

I did, however, hear something rather interesting on the news this morning as they were talking about how the unrest in Libya is spiking oil prices. They went on to say that analysis felt Saudi Arabia is probably the next in line to have protests. So we shall if that prediction actually comes to pass.







Post#188 at 02-22-2011 03:14 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-22-2011, 03:14 PM #188
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
Well, not quite yet. He was still on TV mouthing off this morning.
Oh, he's gone. Just that, like the chicken's body once the head is off, he hasn't gotten the message quite yet. He may run around spraying blood a bit longer before he quits kicking. But the deed is done.

...analysis felt Saudi Arabia is probably the next in line to have protests. So we shall if that prediction actually comes to pass.
Insh'Allah. The House of Saud is a major force for tyranny in the region -- and as with Egypt, the Saudis are well-funded enough to be able to help their lesser neighbors keep their own populations down. I've seen rumblings from the Saudis that they might have to "assist" Bahrain with their protest problem. It would be delightful if they were too busy at home to play Nikolas I in the Middle East.

We are all better off, the more people live freer.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#189 at 02-22-2011 03:46 PM by Kanteai [at On the road joined Feb 2011 #posts 67]
---
02-22-2011, 03:46 PM #189
Join Date
Feb 2011
Location
On the road
Posts
67

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Oh, he's gone. Just that, like the chicken's body once the head is off, he hasn't gotten the message quite yet. He may run around spraying blood a bit longer before he quits kicking. But the deed is done.
I think i would tend to agree, more and more of his inner circle are falling away, and earlier today the Libyan Ambassador also called for him to step aside, it is just a matter of time at this point. I do find it interesting that Iran has sent ships through the Suez canal that are laying in Syria at this point, will Iran make a move to take advantage of the continuing turmoil.
Where is there dignity unless there is honesty? Cicero

I have a right to my anger, and I don't want anybody telling me I shouldn't be, that it's not nice to be, and that something's wrong with me because I get angry. Maxine Waters

Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. George Carlin







Post#190 at 02-22-2011 04:23 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-22-2011, 04:23 PM #190
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Holy fuck. He might be planning on doing a lot of blood-spraying. This from a translation of his most recent speech:

"Muammar Gaddafi is the leader of the revolution, I am not a president to step down ... This is my country. Muammar is not a president to leave his post."
"I have not yet ordered the use of force, not yet ordered one bullet to be fired ... when I do, everything will burn."


We can hope for the sake of people in Libya that he's just making big noises. And that more of his forces remember who they are. Gaddhafi is going to have a tough time burning everything all on his lonesome, comes to that.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#191 at 02-22-2011 05:47 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
---
02-22-2011, 05:47 PM #191
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,860

We can hope for the sake of people in Libya that he's just making big noises. And that more of his forces remember who they are. Gaddhafi is going to have a tough time burning everything all on his lonesome, comes to that.
I sure hope so.







Post#192 at 02-22-2011 05:55 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
---
02-22-2011, 05:55 PM #192
Join Date
Mar 2010
Location
Texas
Posts
5,892

The police departments and intelligence office in Eastern Libya have been burned and the military on that side has defected and joined the opposing forces. This was reported by an CNN reporter who is somewhere in eastern Libya but would not tell his exact location. The reporter seemed confident that the opposition movement would continue to spread westward.







Post#193 at 02-22-2011 10:10 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
---
02-22-2011, 10:10 PM #193
Join Date
Nov 2006
Location
Oklahoma
Posts
5,511

Quote Originally Posted by Kanteai View Post
I see that eastern Libya is now in in control by the opposition, while Gaddafi still refuses to step down
I have no sympathy for a despot/sociopath of the likes of Gaddaffi. Since he wants to be a martyr, so may it be.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...pt=T1&iref=BN1

And...


http://54yearsof-youdecide.blogspot....afi-fatwa.html

Also, I highly recommend that the US stay out of this conflagration. I support self determination, even if it destroys US elite bonds to said despots. Today's cheap oil will be tomorrow's burden. We have no business in determining the Arab world's future.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#194 at 02-23-2011 10:23 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
02-23-2011, 10:23 AM #194
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Gaddaffi is finished, it's only a matter of time before he ends up like Mussolini or Ceausescu.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#195 at 02-23-2011 06:08 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
---
02-23-2011, 06:08 PM #195
Join Date
Dec 2009
Location
Chicago and Indiana
Posts
1,212

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#196 at 02-23-2011 06:16 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
---
02-23-2011, 06:16 PM #196
Join Date
Sep 2008
Posts
2,860

In the same article
Meanwhile Libya’s deputy foreign minister told E.U. ambassadors in Tripoli al-Qaeda has set up an Islamic emirate in Derna, in eastern Libya, headed by a former U.S. prisoner at Guantanamo Bay,

However, residents in the city have told reporters there is no substance to these rumors, which they claim the Libyan government is sowing to "scare Europe."
Who to believe?







Post#197 at 02-23-2011 06:22 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
---
02-23-2011, 06:22 PM #197
Join Date
Dec 2009
Location
Chicago and Indiana
Posts
1,212

Yes, it gets more interesting by the day there. I believe we'll see some kind of resolution within the next week.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#198 at 02-23-2011 06:31 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-23-2011, 06:31 PM #198
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Ah yes. When it suits our elites' purposes, the ravings of a delusional tyrant are to be taken as gospel.

Didn't Saddam have a guy just like this one, back when he was losing his country, too?
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#199 at 02-26-2011 03:29 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-26-2011, 03:29 AM #199
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Spiegel has a nice piece out.

-excerpt-
Al-Qaida's Embarrassment
Revolutions Mark Setback for Terror Group


Ben Ali has fled, Mubarak has been overthrown and Gadhafi is faltering, but al-Qaida is frustrated, because jihadists have played no role whatsoever in the great revolution in the Arab world. The terrorist organization has repeatedly tried to use propaganda to take credit for the revolts, but no one is listening.

One of the side effects of the Arab revolt is that the jihad bubble has burst, at least for now. The popular uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya have impressively demonstrated how little jihadists have to say in Arab societies. Contrary to the propaganda they have been spreading for decades, their mobilization potential is virtually nonexistent.

Their original goal -- the overthrow of the secular regimes in the Arab world -- has been achieved by others, including groups that are among the declared enemies of al-Qaida and its allies: secularists, students with a Western orientation, politically active women, people who support democracy and moderate Islamists. It isn't al-Qaida that has proven to be a vanguard, but the secular, Internet-savvy youth of the Arab world. And no one on the squares and streets, from Tunis to Benghazi, has called for a Taliban-esque theocracy, al-Qaida's vision for the Islamic world.

What an embarrassing revelation!
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#200 at 02-28-2011 01:38 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
02-28-2011, 01:38 PM #200
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
Is your objection that the observation is invalid because you don't trust the source, an "Establishment Man" or is your objection that the observation is invalid because it could be wrong? Do you have any counter-evidence for conditions on the ground in Saudi Arabia?
I've been dissatisfied with my response to this very good question. Fortunately for me, someone else wrote one that gets to the core of the matter better than I was able:

...Because if there's anything the last few weeks have shown, it's that the views of a handful of "Arab decision makers" in the region are representative of the millions of people forced to live under their rule.

Yeah; that.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
-----------------------------------------