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Thread: See What Tunisia Started? - Page 9







Post#201 at 03-01-2011 12:33 AM by RyanJH [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 291]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
I've been dissatisfied with my response to this very good question. Fortunately for me, someone else wrote one that gets to the core of the matter better than I was able:

Yeah; that.
I agree that this is a better response. However, one should not dismiss data based on the source. The Arab nations that have monarchies appear to be doing "better" at handling the unrest then the Arab nations with dictators. This might lend some credence to the Air Force Colonel's observation that Professor Kaiser passed along to us.

Note that I did not disagree with your reasons for suspicion of the data, only with what appeared to be a propensity to disregard data based on the source which is why I asked the question. Thank you for the clarification.
Ryan Heilman '68
-Math is the beginning of wisdom.







Post#202 at 03-01-2011 12:55 PM by disgruntledxer [at Seattle, WA joined Sep 2010 #posts 674]
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I am taking it that this is a 4T event for this/these society(s) since it is a mostly unified response from non-religious (idealist) youth that are jonesing for a life (including multiple statements from them about "rebuilding" there society) that would make them civic.

If that is the case, WHERE in the 4T are they? Begining climax? Catalyst of the 4T? The middle where there is a demand for public order? Personally, I hope its almost over, but that might just be wishfull thinking based on the poll for another thread and "wishfull thinking" gets you nowhere except maybe backwards.
Initially, the questions I ask when reviewing any saeculur event: What did the decision makers know about the cyclical time, when did they know it, and how did they act on that knowledge? Then I can ask the question, "what was their purpose?" I take extra special notice when reviewing events before Generations was released by Strauss-Howe.







Post#203 at 03-01-2011 05:26 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Let us not forget, as our ruling class scrambles to "do something" ostensibly for the benefit of the Libyan people... Libya has oil. Egypt and Tunisia do not.




Clearly, they remember that fact in Libya. Enough to know the appropriate language to use.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

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is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#204 at 03-02-2011 02:15 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Not to mention that our country can't afford to do any more "nation building." If they don't want us there, and we can't afford to be there, we should not be going there.

EDIT: Not to mention that, when we go there, autocrats in other Middle Eastern nations will try to get their people to project their anger on us again.







Post#205 at 03-02-2011 01:41 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Not to mention that our country can't afford to do any more "nation building." If they don't want us there, and we can't afford to be there, we should not be going there.

EDIT: Not to mention that, when we go there, autocrats in other Middle Eastern nations will try to get their people to project their anger on us again.
Uh yeah, you would think people in our government would realize that generally when we go sticking our noses into other people's business, it often comes back to bite us in the butt. But yet, we still hold onto the idea that it our duty to police the world. And then people here in America wonder why people in other countries hate us.

Remember the nosey neighbor, Mrs. Kravitz from the TV show Bewitched? Yep, that's us.







Post#206 at 03-02-2011 02:12 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
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Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
Uh yeah, you would think people in our government would realize that generally when we go sticking our noses into other people's business, it often comes back to bite us in the butt. But yet, we still hold onto the idea that it our duty to police the world. And then people here in America wonder why people in other countries hate us.

Remember the nosey neighbor, Mrs. Kravitz from the TV show Bewitched? Yep, that's us.
And unfortunately we're not even the Season 1 or 2 Mrs. Kravitz that was nosey but lovable & sweet.



No... we're the Season 3 through 8 Mrs. Kravitz who takes on an irritating moralizing approach.



~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#207 at 03-02-2011 06:40 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
And unfortunately we're not even the Season 1 or 2 Mrs. Kravitz that was nosey but lovable & sweet.



No... we're the Season 3 through 8 Mrs. Kravitz who takes on an irritating moralizing approach.



~Chas'88
According the message scrolling along the screen on CNN, I see "Mrs. Kravitz" is considering military intervention.







Post#208 at 03-03-2011 05:17 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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I think some folks officially or not could help the situation by sending various kinds of help to the rebels, and let them do the fighting themselves. A no fly zone might be a trap; we'd have to do heavy air strikes against anti-aircraft sites. If Libya became a massacre of civilians like Rwanda I can understand why a multi-lateral action might be needed. This is similar to what is being done (but not enough is being done) in Darfur. It's not happening yet in Libya on that scale.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#209 at 03-07-2011 01:36 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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The Small Wars Journal has reinvented the wheel --- I mean, the Evil Overlord's Advice Manual --- real life version. "Dear Gaddafi.... find attached...."

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/201...vil-dictators/







Post#210 at 03-07-2011 04:23 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
The Small Wars Journal has reinvented the wheel --- I mean, the Evil Overlord's Advice Manual --- real life version. "Dear Gaddafi.... find attached...."

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/201...vil-dictators/
The other day while taking my son to school, the radio station we were listening to was listing off recent quotes. These were all very bizarre and irrational statements. The game was to guess who said it, Gaddafi or Charlie Sheen. And the funniest part was that it really hard to tell which one said it.







Post#211 at 07-31-2011 11:57 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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And while we are all focused on the debt ceiling, some good news (I think) from Syria.

A Syrian Major-General has deserted Assad’s army along with a group of other officers and joined the rebels.

In an Arabic video clip posted on Youtube on July 29, 2011, the officer, Major-General Riad El As’ad is seen in the company of other officers, announcing the establishment of the Free Syrian Army whose main goal will be to fight the army of oppression headed by President Bashar Assad”.

As’ad accused the Assad regime of crimes against the Syrian people and called on the officers and soldiers in the Syrian army not to aim their weapons at the people. He further called on them to join the Free Syrian Army.

The major-general warned that the Free Army will eliminate any soldier who acts to harm his own people. The present army commanders do not represent the army, he continued, they are acting for the criminal gang that controls the media and prevents the people from obtaining truthful information on what is happening.
Here.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#212 at 08-20-2011 07:06 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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So it looks like the Libyan rebels (with Nato support) are working hard tonight to depose the Gaddafi regime. Apparently lots of gunfire in Tripoli. Some sources say Gaddafi has already fled.







Post#213 at 08-21-2011 07:20 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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If you are willing to be neutral about events of another time and place...

Tripoli today - Saigon, late April 1975.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#214 at 08-21-2011 07:42 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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The rebels have captured Tripoli. A few reports indicate that Gaddafi is dead. YAY Libya!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#215 at 08-25-2011 11:52 AM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
The rebels have captured Tripoli. A few reports indicate that Gaddafi is dead. YAY Libya!
1) That's YAY! US Navy and US Air Force;

2) Seems a tad premature on Qaddafi.







Post#216 at 08-25-2011 12:08 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
1) That's YAY! US Navy and US Air Force;

2) Seems a tad premature on Qaddafi.
Actually it was more of a Nato effort with the US providing some but not all of the means. Most importantly, we did not lose a single person in this effort. Maybe something along the same lines should have been considered for Iraq.







Post#217 at 08-25-2011 12:43 PM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
Actually it was more of a Nato effort with the US providing some but not all of the means. Most importantly, we did not lose a single person in this effort. Maybe something along the same lines should have been considered for Iraq.
-Bull. The only thing holding it together was the US, and the US & UK did most of the fighting. Just like Iraq.

BTW, good thing Qaddafi never got nukes, huh?







Post#218 at 08-25-2011 01:25 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
-Bull. The only thing holding it together was the US, and the US & UK did most of the fighting. Just like Iraq.
Nothing was incorrect about my statement" with the US providing some but not all of the means" and "Most importantly we did not lose a single person in this effort".

Yet you write "Bull". Have we lost any soldiers in this operation? Do you want to hairsplit what 'some' means in reference to the "US contribution"? Have fun at it since thats more your gig than mine. I stand by my statements as accurate.

Here's a nice table as to the different nations contributions:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

The US provided most in some aspects, some in others, and none (in sorties flew), in another.







Post#219 at 08-25-2011 01:49 PM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
...Have we lost any soldiers in this operation?
-Is your argument that we should only fight the very most incompetent opponents?


Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
...
Here's a nice table as to the different nations contributions:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

The US provided most in some aspects, some in others, and none (in sorties flew), in another.
-Uh, FWIW, it says we flew 2,000 out of 5857, and the Brits flew 1,300 (round numbers?) out of 5,587.

No mention of who actually did what, and who was actually effective, but we won't see that for a while. I do know that the French actually flew bombing missions. Sometimes they actually hit what they were aiming at. But the French weren't going to fight Saddam in 2003, since he had a good chunk of France in his pocket. You work with what you can get. And the fact anyone other than the Brits stuck around for Libya is because 1) We were there to hold their hands and 2) We kept them supplied (including the Brits).


Anyone who tries to rely on the Europeans will discover that they're leaning on that proverbial reed.







Post#220 at 08-25-2011 02:04 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
-Is your argument that we should only fight the very most incompetent opponents?
I assume by your answer you concede I am correct that we have lost zero soldiers. And no that is not my argument. How you are able to infer that is beyond me. My argument is solely related to the incompetence of the Bush administrations handling of the Iraq war, which was unnecessary, and an expensive distraction in terms of time, lives, and money.







Post#221 at 08-25-2011 02:09 PM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Yes. We'd be much better off with Saddam still in power.

C'mon.

Obama can't handle what's on his plate now. But with Saddam still in power to make trouble as the spirit moves him? He'd be lost.







Post#222 at 08-25-2011 02:13 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
Yes. We'd be much better off with Saddam still in power.
You have no way of knowing whether the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia would have spread to Iraq to topple Saddam as it did Gaddaffi. But to answer the question we'd be better off as a nation had we focused entirely on Afghanistan instead of Iraq taking center stage.

But I'm guessing you're one of those that believe we should also be going into Iran and Syria as well. I'm guessing you're a war hawk. I could be wrong, but...
C'mon.

Obama can't handle what's on his plate now. But with Saddam still in power to make trouble as the spirit moves him? He'd be lost.
Obama has a big economic mess on his plate now. The GOP proposal of more tax cuts isn't going to solve this problem as it just gives the well to do more money that they won't spend.







Post#223 at 08-25-2011 02:31 PM by JDG 66 [at joined Aug 2010 #posts 2,106]
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Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
Which still equals Bush not seeing any combat. Even Abraham Lincoln had more action in burying the dead after the Black Hawk War than Bush ever did.
-And? As a general rule, you go where they send you.

I have a whole thread on it:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...414#post250414

Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
You have no way of knowing whether the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia would have spread to Iraq to topple Saddam as it did Gaddaffi...
-We're seeing the results in Syria. And so far, Egypt is a military dictatorship. Other than Israel, the freest country in the Middle east is, well...

Iraq.

Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
But to answer the question we'd be better off as a nation had we focused entirely on Afghanistan instead of Iraq taking center stage...
-Again, Saddam would be having a field day right about now. Who'd stop him? The French? The Germans? The Russians? They were all in his back pocket, remember?

Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
But I'm guessing you're one of those that believe we should also be going into Iran and Syria as well. I'm guessing you're a war hawk. I could be wrong, but...
-Syria, no; Iran, maybe. I would have advised against Libya for the same reason I was against Bosnia and Kosovo- I didn't trust the guys we were supporting. Now, it's turned out well, for now. But again, because of us, not the Europeans.

Quote Originally Posted by Hutch74 View Post
...The GOP proposal of more tax cuts isn't going to solve this problem as it just gives the well to do more money that they won't spend.
-That's funny. If punishing the rich for creating wealth worked, Greece would rolling in clover. My advice: watch the European welfare states.

The reasons businesses (rich or otherwise) aren't spending money is the same one as 1937: They're afraid to invest, because we have a POTUS who makes a hobby out ofpolicies which are counter-productive (or unpredictable). Why should they risk money on Obama, other than to contribute to his re-election campaign in hopes of buying him off?







Post#224 at 08-25-2011 02:51 PM by Hutch74 [at Wisconsin joined Mar 2010 #posts 1,008]
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Quote Originally Posted by JDG 66 View Post
-And? As a general rule, you go where they send you.

I have a whole thread on it:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...414#post250414
I suppose it helps as to where they send you when your dad is a Congressman later appointed US Ambassador to the UN.



-We're seeing the results in Syria. And so far, Egypt is a military dictatorship. Other than Israel, the freest country in the Middle east is, well...

Iraq.
.

Syria is still too early to tell what will happen there. Could be Assad holds onto power. Could also be once Gaddhafi disposed of, you'll see more and more volunteering to challange the Assad regime. No way to know yet.

And Iraq being free? I suppose if free means a few steps above anarchy. It's still quite unstable. That we still have a significant presence there sort of makes your idea of 'free' kind of meaningless. Unless that is your preference for a nation. So unstable you get to do whatever you want.



-Again, Saddam would be having a field day right about now. Who'd stop him? The French? The Germans? The Russians? They were all in his back pocket, remember?
And this is important to most Americans why?



-Syria, no; Iran, maybe. I would have advised against Libya for the same reason I was against Bosnia and Kosovo- I didn't trust the guys we were supporting. Now, it's turned out well, for now. But again, because of us, not the Europeans.
Us and the Europeans, working together under a mandate from the UN, with the Libyan rebels doing most of the hard work.



-That's funny. If punishing the rich for creating wealth worked, Greece would rolling in clover. My advice: watch the European welfare states.

The reasons businesses (rich or otherwise) aren't spending money is the same one as 1937: They're afraid to invest, because we have a POTUS who makes a hobby out ofpolicies which are counter-productive (or unpredictable). Why should they risk money on Obama, other than to contribute to his re-election campaign in hopes of buying him off?
They're afraid to create jobs because consumers aren't spending. They're uncertain of the future, and demand is down. Consumer spending makes up 2/3rds of the economy.

If conservatives were really serious about jump starting the economy, they'd suggest massive tax cuts or rebates at the middle and bottom. Those who have no choice but to spend. The rich will reap a bit of that windfall when it trickles up.

Why give hundreds of billions in tax cuts to the rich who will just stick it in their bank accounts since they're uncertain of the future, then have the banks have even more deposits they don't know what to do with?







Post#225 at 08-25-2011 03:39 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
If you are willing to be neutral about events of another time and place...

Tripoli today - Saigon, late April 1975.
Dammit, brower, now you've triggered a Billy Joel earworm!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
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