Originally Posted by Hutch74

...And Iraq being free? I suppose if free means a few steps above anarchy. It's still quite unstable...

-A fair point, but my point was:

Originally Posted by JDG 66

...Other than Israel, the freest country in the Middle east is, well...

Iraq...

....A few steps above anarchy is still freer than Egypt, Syria, or any other Arab or Islamic country. And Iraq is apparently stable enough for Eric the Aquamarine's college kids to go hiking. Of course, that was in Kurdistan.

Originally Posted by Hutch74

...And this is important to most Americans why?

-Excellent point. The Iraqi Ba'athists in today's world would have no negative effects on Middle East stability or American safety, because...

Originally Posted by Hutch74

...Us and the Europeans, working together under a mandate from the UN, with the Libyan rebels doing most of the hard work.

-Without us, the Europeans (including the UK) didn't even have enough bombs to keep fighting. And of course, they needed us to keep stuffing some guts in them.

The UN? Please.

It's nice to have the Europeans and the UN along to take up some slack, but they weren't neccessary.

If all that the Libyan rebels had was the USAF and the USN, they still would have taken Tripoli.

If the rebels had had the UN and the Europeans, but not us, the result would have been a lot of dead rebels, a gloating Qadaffi, and lots of handwringing in Brussels and the UN. The End.

Now, assuming the rebels don't screw things up, and depending on whether they turn out to be better than Qadaffi, perhaps the world will better off. I think so, and I hope so, but it's yet to be proven. But whatever happens, we were the key, not the UN or the Europeans.

Originally Posted by Hutch74

...They're afraid to create jobs because consumers aren't spending. They're uncertain of the future, and demand is down. Consumer spending makes up 2/3rds of the economy...

-That's only part of it, and not the key. Obamacare alone makes things worse:

Originally Posted by JDG 66

-
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...re_577232.html

... “Private-sector job creation initially recovered from the recession at a normal rate... Since April 2010, however, net private-sector job creation has stalled. Within two months of the passage of Obamacare, the job market stopped improving. This suggests that businesses are not exaggerating when they tell pollsters that the new health care law is holding back hiring.”

...Obamacare discourages employers from hiring in several ways:

“Businesses with fewer than 50 workers have a strong incentive to maintain this size, which allows them to avoid the mandate to provide government-approved health coverage or face a penalty;

“Businesses with more than 50 workers will see their costs for health coverage rise — they must purchase more expensive government-approved insurance or pay a penalty; and

“Employers face considerable uncertainty about what constitutes qualifying health coverage and what it will cost. They also do not know what the health care market or their health care costs will look like in four years. This makes planning for the future difficult.”

...I mean, it's not hard to understand.

As a topper:

Originally Posted by JDG 66

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...re-or-america/

...the Obama administration now admits Obamacare will not reduce health care costs. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) issued a report last month indicating health care costs will rise faster under Obamacare than they would have in its absence...

(DUH!)

Originally Posted by Hutch74

...If conservatives were really serious about jump starting the economy, they'd suggest massive tax cuts or rebates at the middle and bottom...

-Already did. That's why the bottom income tax rate is 10% instead of 15%. Or have you already forgotten? Besides, to put it in your terms, how much will those tax cuts "cost" us?

BTW, the result of the Bush income tax cuts:

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartb...income-earners

*****Crossposted on The 2010's thread****

On today, the 11th anniversery of the 911 attack Islamists attack US embassies in Egypt and Libya.

Originally Posted by CNN,com

Angry protesters attacked U.S. diplomatic compounds in Libya and Egypt on Tuesday, citing in both instances an online film considered offensive to Islam.

In Cairo, several men scaled the walls of the U.S. Embassy and tore down its American flag, according to CNN producer Mohammed Fahmy, who was on the scene.

In Libya, witnesses say members of a radical Islamist group called Ansar al-Sharia protested near the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, where NATO jets established no-fly zones last year to blunt ground attacks from then Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi.

The Arab Spring may be turning into a long hot summer.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/egypti...r-down-us-flag



Ah yes. And we expected nicey-nice from the Mideast. Nope, ain't gonna happen.
"Meet the New Boss, Same as The Old Boss." - The Who

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/egypti...r-down-us-flag



Ah yes. And we expected nicey-nice from the Mideast. Nope, ain't gonna happen.
"Meet the New Boss, Same as The Old Boss." - The Who

The US ambassador to Libya was killed in the Libya attack.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

*****Crossposted on The 2010's thread****

On today, the 11th anniversery of the 911 attack Islamists attack US embassies in Egypt and Libya.


The Arab Spring may be turning into a long hot summer.

Heard the mob in front of the US embassy in Cairo were repeatedly shouting: "We are Osama, we are Osama" in recognition of a certain date. These are the "democrats" in whose hands Egypt has been delivered.

Well, what can I tell you.

Told you so.


Xer wisdoms, heh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqjuFzAY1g

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/egypti...r-down-us-flag



Ah yes. And we expected nicey-nice from the Mideast. Nope, ain't gonna happen.
"Meet the New Boss, Same as The Old Boss." - The Who

What will now befall the Christians of Egypt?

I was about to write "and the Jews" but they have already been hoarded out.

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Heard the mob in front of the US embassy in Cairo were repeatedly shouting: "We are Osama, we are Osama" in recognition of a certain date. These are the "democrats" in whose hands Egypt has been delivered.

Well, what can I tell you.

Told you so.


Xer wisdoms, heh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqjuFzAY1g

Having never gone to school in Sweden I don't know if you ever had to deal iwth fist fights breaking out in the middle of class, lunch, recess ect.
But I did. And many times. My junior high schol was a tough place. One thing that I learned was not to jump into the middle of something before you knew enough about it to make good decisions.
Are the violent people Islamists? Yes, and I called them as much.
Does this mean that everything that happened in north Africa is doomed to end in Isalmainc totalitarism? You can't say so at this point.
That's why I wrote that the Arab spring may turn into a long hot summer.

And thanks for the good jam. :

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

The US ambassador to Libya was killed in the Libya attack.

and

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Heard the mob in front of the US embassy in Cairo were repeatedly shouting: "We are Osama, we are Osama" in recognition of a certain date. These are the "democrats" in whose hands Egypt has been delivered.

Well, what can I tell you.

Told you so.

Yup. I'm not surprised both of these headlines either. Video below expresses my take on that hellhole.


So, yeah, something judgmental and to the point. Perhaps more along the Joneser style. I think our "elected" representatives need to see this for a reality check.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

Having never gone to school in Sweden I don't know if you ever had to deal iwth fist fights breaking out in the middle of class, lunch, recess ect.
But I did. And many times. My junior high schol was a tough place. One thing that I learned was not to jump into the middle of something before you knew enough about it to make good decisions.
Are the violent people Islamists? Yes, and I called them as much.
Does this mean that everything that happened in north Africa is doomed to end in Isalmainc totalitarism? You can't say so at this point.
That's why I wrote that the Arab spring may turn into a long hot summer.

That's strange. I don't recall you as being a classmate. Actually, girl fights are the worst. Those are no holds barred. They pull hair and scratch each other with those long finger nails. The weird thing is that boys had an unwritten protocol.
1. Location
2. Fists only
3. No hair pulling. (Guys had long hair then.)
4. Fight started with initial push
5. Usually no targeting of nads.
6. Wrestling moves OK.

This BS has just made up my mind, time for us to get out of the shit-hole that is the Middle East and let them riot themselves to death.

First the BS caused by the Mohammed cartoons and now killing and rioting over a f*cking movie. May they go fuck themselves.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

That's strange. I don't recall you as being a classmate. Actually, girl fights are the worst. Those are no holds barred. They pull hair and scratch each other with those long finger nails. The weird thing is that boys had an unwritten protocol.
1. Location
2. Fists only
3. No hair pulling. (Guys had long hair then.)
4. Fight started with initial push
5. Usually no targeting of nads.
6. Wrestling moves OK.

Yeah, those are some kind of unwritten man rules that even I ran into (minus the hair thing, cause everyone had short hair in my High School)... it must be part of the larger culture, like the ones for bathroom etiquette.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

That's strange. I don't recall you as being a classmate.

Well I guess that my side of town was where the gas lines were circa 1978-79. :

Originally Posted by Rags

Actually, girl fights are the worst. Those are no holds barred. They pull hair and scratch each other with those long finger nails.

Your girls sound more lively. A lot of the girl fights at my school were just slapping contests.

Originally Posted by Rags

The weird thing is that boys had an unwritten protocol.
1. Location
2. Fists only
3. No hair pulling. (Guys had long hair then.)
4. Fight started with initial push
5. Usually no targeting of nads.
6. Wrestling moves OK.

Agree with all of them in geeral. However often the location was determined by that first push/shove. Hence fight breaking out in class, on the bus and in the lunchroom. The strictest rule of all was no weapons. If a guy was brave enough to fight and lost at least he fought like a man. If anyone had even thought to pull a weapon they would have been considered a cowardly outcast from that moment on.
Quite a contrast to the hip hop era where an iron supposidly maks one da big man.


Back to the larger discussion. Many of us already suspected that north Africa was in a 4T. The heavy religious aspect of the Arab spring makes the possibility of a 2T social moment somehwat stronger here. However, IIRC most of our posters who have spent time in the area and know the history well date the previous north African 4T to ending in the early/mid '50's when Nasser took over Egypt and both Libya and Tunisia moved towards independence. That would make this 4T slightly early but not enough to totally eliminate the possibility mathematically.

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Yeah, those are some kind of unwritten man rules that even I ran into (minus the hair thing, cause everyone had short hair in my High School)... it must be part of the larger culture, like the ones for bathroom etiquette.

~Chas'88

Yeah you don't kick another guy in the nads unless you're prepared to deal with him as a real long term enemy.
I certainly never remmeber any guy doing it. One would have been almost as big an outcast afterwards as if they'd pulled a weapon.

I will add tha most fight only lasted a minute or so. Uusually the other guys would breal it up before whoever was losing really got hurt.

The Great Islamophobic Crusade
Inside the Bizarre Cabal of Secretive Donors, Demagogic Bloggers, Pseudo-Scholars, European Neo-Fascists, Violent Israeli Settlers, and Republican Presidential Hopefuls Behind the Crusade

Originally Posted by Odin

This BS has just made up my mind, time for us to get out of the shit-hole that is the Middle East and let them riot themselves to death.

First the BS caused by the Mohammed cartoons and now killing and rioting over a f*cking movie. May they go fuck themselves.

Not a totally irrational thought. There is a lot of anger over there, a lot of poverty, and reasons for both. We should never have expected to be greeted as liberators, or for folks to lightly cast aside their own culture to embrace another with quite alien values.

In the short term, I suspect last year's Arab Spring is over. They are no longer focused on overthrowing their own quite horrible leadership. The focus of their anger is on The Great Satan again. I don't think this will get them anywhere, but if they don't want our help how much help can we or should we give?

I think this ridiculous bullshit is going to blow over soon, and the Arab Spring will resume. Reality has a way of intruding; it is their own regimes from which they suffer, not insults against Islam made by some other idiots.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I think this ridiculous bullshit is going to blow over soon, and the Arab Spring will resume. Reality has a way of intruding; it is their own regimes from which they suffer, not insults against Islam made by some other idiots.

Oh, you better believe it.

1. high youth unemployment.

And high foodie prices were one of the triggers for "Arab Spring" in the first place. Foodie prices are higher now because of drought.

2. The usual sectarian crap. Sunni vs. Shiite, Kurds, Alawites, etc.

So, we ought to blow this pop stand before it explodes sky high. Benign neglect is the foreign policy of choice. Bring the boys back and all of that.

Originally Posted by Rag's rendition of Barnie's Song laced with snark [/quote

i hate you
you hate me
were an angry clusterfuck
with a great big grenadeand a bomb from me 2 you
wont you say you hate me 2
i hate you
you hate me
we are enemies like enemies should be
with a great big grenade anda bomb
from me 2 you wont you say you hate me 2

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I think this ridiculous bullshit is going to blow over soon, and the Arab Spring will resume. Reality has a way of intruding; it is their own regimes from which they suffer, not insults against Islam made by some other idiots.

You are allowed to hope.

At the absolute least, Obama must both dock Egypt its foreign aid allotment, and impose a Cuba-style travel ban, for the rest of the year.

Anything less is lily-livered appeasement.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

Having never gone to school in Sweden I don't know if you ever had to deal iwth fist fights breaking out in the middle of class, lunch, recess ect.

Almost every other day. Why do you ask?

But I did. And many times. My junior high schol was a tough place. One thing that I learned was not to jump into the middle of something before you knew enough about it to make good decisions.

Sounds like a philosophy I would commend.

Are the violent people Islamists? Yes, and I called them as much.
Does this mean that everything that happened in north Africa is doomed to end in Isalmainc totalitarism? You can't say so at this point.
That's why I wrote that the Arab spring may turn into a long hot summer.

Whatever happens we can be sure there won't be another bout of Kumbaya.

And thanks for the good jam. :

My pleasure.

Originally Posted by Odin

This BS has just made up my mind, time for us to get out of the shit-hole that is the Middle East and let them riot themselves to death.

First the BS caused by the Mohammed cartoons and now killing and rioting over a f*cking movie. May they go fuck themselves.

I cannot but fully and completely sympathize with this sentiment. Let them have their turf and we'll have ours.

Originally Posted by Odin

The Great Islamophobic Crusade
Inside the Bizarre Cabal of Secretive Donors, Demagogic Bloggers, Pseudo-Scholars, European Neo-Fascists, Violent Israeli Settlers, and Republican Presidential Hopefuls Behind the Crusade

The author of the above may twist and twine and excuse muslims all he wants, but in the end it boils down to this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-...s-image,29553/

Originally Posted by Tussilago

The author of the above may twist and twine and excuse muslims all he wants, but in the end it boils down to this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-...s-image,29553/

-Exactly. But wait. Once a group discovers that they can censor their opponents by threatening violence, they will. Bet on it.

Originally Posted by The Rani

The more time that I spend on this planet, the more I realize that "offensive" lies in the eyes of the beholder.

-Because you thought the picture was a beautiful expression of one or more dieties' love for one of more other dieites?

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Almost every other day. Why do you ask?

Because here in America as the 3T wore on our schools generally gave in to the idea that children should not fight in school. Not even to defend themselves. I have 3 nephews born in 1982, 89 an 91. Whenever they had a problem a fight always had to be arrainged off campus after school hours. I guess that I suspected that this trend had started in western european schools before beig borugh here. Pardon my provincialism.

Originally Posted by Tuss

Sounds like a philosophy I would commend.

Thanks.
All in all I would not have had to have grown up as my nephews did. I guess that generationally I'm too much of a true joneser to fit in to the millie cocoon.

Originally Posted by Tuss

Whatever happens we can be sure there won't be another bout of Kumbaya.

Scince the Tunisian uprising started and spread I've been fairly certain that the whole Arab spring process is a true 4T. The fact that religion prevades all aspects of middle eastern life makes the possibility of this all being a 2T social moment one that has to be considered. But many of the opening sparks were related to bread prices and other secular issues so I still suspect that this is a 4T.

And it' likely to take many turns before we get a clear picture of the new saeculum. Like most I'm hoping that the forces of moderation and modernization create the new way, but it may well be 20 years before we know.

And, IMO, here in America having wannabe presidential candidates acting bellicose everytime there's a riot in a country with a crecent moon on the flag is nto a good thing.
Romney can spout out irresponsible blather but unless he wins the election he'll never have to deal with any problems that he creates for the country along the way.