Have either of you two considered that people can be fighting for democracy (at least at first) and ALSO be religious fanatics (by our standards)? Or is that too much of a jump?
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Have either of you two considered that people can be fighting for democracy (at least at first) and ALSO be religious fanatics (by our standards)? Or is that too much of a jump?
-Well, the sharia system and representative government are mutually exclusive. Now, if you mean that Jihadis will use elections to put themselves in power, then end them (called "one man, one vote, one time"), then yeah, but that's not a sincere interest in "democracy".Originally Posted by JordanGoodspeed
The Muslim Brotherhood disagrees. So might the first 4 caliphs, considering they were elected by their peers.
MB and the salafists are not the same thing. Islamic normative and legal traditions are not monolithic. Neither are Western conceptions of democracy and representative government, for that matter.
People need to be much more careful with the terms and concepts they use.
-I am. The Rashidoon were not chosen in anything resembling a plebiscite, and the Muslim Brotherhood are an example of "One Man, One Vote, One Time" in action.
I don't really think we have enough data to make that statement definitively. We'll see how the MB turns out. I mean, they're still largely a bourgeois movement, there is a reason so many of their core constituents and candidates are doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. They're not really anymore religious than any other party that appeals primarily to the middle class, historically speaking.
If say, the al-Nour party takes power in Egypt, Katy bar the door. Dislocated peasants, of which the Arab world has many, have a long and storied history of supporting strongmen making romantic appeals to past tradition/revolutionaryideals. See Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc.
EDITED for spelling.
Last edited by JordanGoodspeed; 05-22-2013 at 03:10 PM.
-Uh, are you calling the Muslim Brotherhood a bourgeois movement? You're on your own with that. Or maybe you need to explain your interesting definition...
As for data, I'll give you 5 :1 odds that the IB sets itself up as an effective dictatorship (with phony/coerced elections a la Venezuela) or is overthrown. They are not interested in anything other than the laundry list of Islamofascist fantasies (with a tint of Arab fascism): Sharia Law; Destruction of Israel; Prostration of the West; Jerusalem as the capital of a sharia run Caliphate. Either that, or Mansoor likes to make speeches which his followers won't like.
Really? 5-1? How did you calculate that?
A more thorough explanation of my point, with links and stuff, will have to wait till I get home.
Probably 99%. I'm just being cautious.
Well as the results of the Arab Spring have shown, it was very effective at replacing old dictators with brand new dictators who are a bit savvier at using the modern approaches to maintaining obedience.
You can’t really blame these new dictators for using modern tools of control. The United States government has certainly shown how effective those tools can be.
Yep, civil wars are a nasty business. In the specific case of Syria, it involves a lot of personal grudges that have been building up for decades layered on top of religious grudges that have been building up for centuries. It’s their business to sort out, not mine.
Of course it sounds more like your problems lie with Russia and Iran rather than Syria. I suggest you focus your rage on those parties directly rather than continue pushing the pathetic imperial proxy wars of the past century.
You wish to force me to send my money over there to support people that I have no interest in supporting. Certainly if you want to send them your money then please, feel free. I won’t stop you (though you may end up on a few "special lists").
Your desire to personally avoid the violence that you desperately want to finance is also duly noted. Not a surprise of course but worth mention. It clearly illustrates an important difference between you and I; that if I believe a fight is truly worth fighting then I will gladly risk my own neck to take part in the fight. I could never be cowardly enough to ask others to fight in my stead, nor could I ask or expect them to finance the fight in my stead.
This is the difference between adult behavior (accepting the responsibility yourself) and child behavior (hiding behind daddy’s legs).
Last edited by Copperfield; 05-22-2013 at 09:09 PM.
I expect Eric is simply trying to help advance his admitted heroine Dianne Feinstein's other career: War Profiteering.
Who knows, maybe he is working for her now.
Come on now, everybody knows that the Spanish Civil War needed to come before WWII. People wanted a chance to test out their new toys before putting them to use in earnest. I mean honestly, do you really want to run through WWIII before we've had a chance to beta-test our missile defense technology? Of course not.Of course it sounds more like your problems lie with Russia and Iran rather than Syria. I suggest you focusyour rage on those parties directly rather than continue pushing the pathetic imperial proxy wars of the past century.
Foreplay makes the final action that much more intense.
EDIT I am aware that Iron Dome is primarily for short range missiles. That's why we need to expand trial testing to include Syria, Iran, and NK.
Last edited by JordanGoodspeed; 05-22-2013 at 10:07 PM.
So far the new rulers are more democratic than the old ones, though more change is needed. I don't know what tools you refer to. Assad is not a new dictator; he is just the old one who wasn't deposed yet.
No, that's not what is happening. The people rose up non-violently for freedom in the Arab Spring. They were killed and tortured for that. That was not a "religious grudge" copperfield. Why should the killer-dictator get help from outside, but not the freedom rebels? This would not be a proxy war, since our quarrel is NOT with Russia and Iran, but with Assad. It is not the USA being police of the world, since the rebels clearly want and have asked for our support.Yep, civil wars are a nasty business. In the specific case of Syria, it involves a lot of personal grudges that have been building up for decades layered on top of religious grudges that have been building up for centuries. It’s their business to sort out, not mine.
Of course it sounds more like your problems lie with Russia and Iran rather than Syria. I suggest you focus your rage on those parties directly rather than continue pushing the pathetic imperial proxy wars of the past century.
There is no reason why we as a nation cannot help people fighting for freedom, without us doing the fighting. It is not our war to fight, but it is a fight we should support. Genocide is not something that the international community should allow. The sooner we help the rebels, the sooner the violence will end. There is no possible alternative outcome to this war except either total surrender to Assad's tyranny with further mass retributions, or his overthrow and death. The fight will go on until either happens. Tipping the balance will end the violence sooner. That is worth financing.You wish to force me to send my money over there to support people that I have no interest in supporting. Certainly if you want to send them your money then please, feel free. I won’t stop you (though you may end up on a few "special lists").
Your desire to personally avoid the violence that you desperately want to finance is also duly noted. Not a surprise of course but worth mention. It clearly illustrates an important difference between you and I; that if I believe a fight is truly worth fighting then I will gladly risk my own neck to take part in the fight. I could never be cowardly enough to ask others to fight in my stead, nor could I ask or expect them to finance the fight in my stead.
This is the difference between adult behavior (accepting the responsibility yourself) and child behavior (hiding behind daddy’s legs).
We differ on this issue; that's OK. We differ, then. That you and I are different is not news to me. We clearly are different in almost every respect. No disrespect intended.
So far, 120,000 deaths later, you have gotten your way. I doubt I would be forcing you to send any money; somehow I doubt that you actually pay any taxes. It's against your beliefs to pay taxes for anything.
Democracy and freedom are not synonymous and never have been. Democracy is a tool and like any tool can be used to accomplish both good and bad things. These days democracy is more of a buzz word than it is a functional mechanism. It sounds important to ignorant people who are willing to buy into the illusion in the short-term and puts most of them into a more docile state. That kind of obedience is important for power-mongers.
Of course it is. Allow me to give you a very brief, surface-level breakdown of Syrian religious demographics. Assad’s family belongs to the Alawite sect, a small off-shoot of Shia Islam (itself a minority denomination). Prior to the Assad family taking power in Syria, Alawis were heavily persecuted for their beliefs by the existing Syrian power structure. So when the Assad family came to power you could say they had a bit of a chip on their shoulder.
The majority population of Syria is Sunni Muslim who have a violent history with Shi-ites. This violence dates back hundreds of years. On top of this melting pot are the ethnic minority Kurds who neither side like (denied citizenship in 1962, the Syrian government labeled all Kurds “foreigners”). Again the persecution and violence between these groups goes back hundreds of years.
This is the sort of personal, religious and historical grudge-match that you now want to get involved in Eric, all from the safety of your comfy little home. I mean, I get that you are completely ignorant of the world outside of the San Jose bubble but do you even try to read about how things actually work before blindly accepting the children’s stories you are spoon fed here in the United States?
These ethnic-religious groups all hate each other and are quite willing to kill over hundreds of years of actual and perceived insult to themselves, their families and their ancestors. Absolutely nothing we do is going to stop them from hating and killing each other.
Again, if you want to do something about it, you go right ahead. I’m sitting this one out.
It isn’t my way, it’s their way. This is their very personal business and they will settle it one way or the other. Nothing good can come from my involvement.
An article in The Nation compares the Syrian situation-described above-to another one we have recently had experience with-Iraq. So, of course, neoconservatives are agitating for us to get involved in the Syrian mess.
Until I saw Copperfield's response, I forgot about this comment:
...so, I punched in the word "policeman", and within 2 minutes, I came up with this, dated 18 OCT 2008:
...it took me a little longer to get this, 22 FEB 2002:
...what a difference! Needless, to say, I'm shocked (shocked!) at the accuracy of my prediction.
I'll bet Eric couldn't have predicted that with his astrological tables.
-The Spanish Civil War didn't begin because foreigners wanted to test new weapons or doctrines, and the interventionists didn't participate because they wanted to test new weapons or systems; they did so because they believed that they were right.
Of course, it never hurts...
The Syrian rebels are rising up for their freedom against a killer-dictator.
I know all about that. Why would you think I wouldn't know? You just choose to focus on that aspect, and forget about the real Arab Spring and the young people who just want freedom and a better life.Of course it is. Allow me to give you a very brief, surface-level breakdown of Syrian religious demographics. Assad’s family belongs to the Alawite sect, a small off-shoot of Shia Islam (itself a minority denomination). Prior to the Assad family taking power in Syria, Alawis were heavily persecuted for their beliefs by the existing Syrian power structure. So when the Assad family came to power you could say they had a bit of a chip on their shoulder.
The majority population of Syria is Sunni Muslim who have a violent history with Shi-ites. This violence dates back hundreds of years. On top of this melting pot are the ethnic minority Kurds who neither side like (denied citizenship in 1962, the Syrian government labeled all Kurds “foreigners”). Again the persecution and violence between these groups goes back hundreds of years.
This is the sort of personal, religious and historical grudge-match that you now want to get involved in Eric, all from the safety of your comfy little home. I mean, I get that you are completely ignorant of the world outside of the San Jose bubble but do you even try to read about how things actually work before blindly accepting the children’s stories you are spoon fed here in the United States?
These ethnic-religious groups all hate each other and are quite willing to kill over hundreds of years of actual and perceived insult to themselves, their families and their ancestors. Absolutely nothing we do is going to stop them from hating and killing each other.
I disagree; helping them with arms (plus other non-lethal aid) would help them end the war sooner.
It's their nation's business, not someone's "personal" business.Again, if you want to do something about it, you go right ahead. I’m sitting this one out.
It isn’t my way, it’s their way. This is their very personal business and they will settle it one way or the other. Nothing good can come from my involvement.
I'm just talking around the water cooler, about what our nation's policy should be. You sit everything out anyway; what difference does it make if you sit this one out?
...or the opportunity to set up their own killer dictator...
Everyone here needs to wake up to the fact that Muslim civilization is something entirely different from European civilization and thus western concepts of democracy have no intrinsic value to them. Samuel P. Huntington managed to predict the world of today with astonishing accuracy back in the mid 90's (well, maybe not so astonishing provided you weren't blindfolded by universal free market new world order democracy nonsense at the time, but anyway). He ought to be read a lot more.
Last edited by Tussilago; 05-24-2013 at 08:46 PM.
INTP 1970 Core X
Perhaps one could try to explain the situation in Syria with an (imperfect) analogy-Northern Ireland. I have thought of the warring parties as people trapped in the history that they inherited. The hatreds seemed to have taken on a life of their own. So...if you came from a background unrelated to either the Protestants or the Catholics, would you have wanted to get involved?
Last edited by TimWalker; 05-24-2013 at 09:18 PM.
The young people of the Arab Spring wanted to ditch their ancient tyrannies and conflicts and get on with a better life. They protested in the streets and were shot down and tortured. The motives of the oppressors have something to do with Alawite insecurity over a Sunni takeover, but mainly with keeping their power. The rebels just want freedom. Since they have gotten inadequate help, some terrorists have moved into the breach. But mainly, at first the idea that his opponents were foreign terrorists was just Assad's propaganda. Cynical Americans often don't want to accept the truth, just so they don't have to help.
No, you need to wake up to the fact that freedom and democracy are attractive to all people, and the world revolution is everywhere. It has been rolling along since 1789, and will advance until all people are free.
And the Revolution has gone through 3 stages: democratic, socialist, green. All 3 are part of the real definition of liberation from tyranny. All the world's people will go through all 3 phases. There is no difference among people anywhere concerning the basic things they want; as Justin Bieber says, "all around the world, people want to be loved." Spreading hate by claiming Muslims are different and don't want democracy or freedom is of no use to humanity. The Arab Spring is not being imposed by The West. If you think so, you don't know what's happening.
-You mean, 1776. Fortunately with had the Founding Fathers, who believed in the principles of limited government. The French didn't. In less than 5 years, their revolution turned into a totalitarian slaughter.
Do you have any evidence that ANYONE in the Syrian opposition understands this? I suspect if you did, that you wouldn't be that enthusiastic for their cause.
Huh:
...something changed...
Sending arms as part of a multi-lateral team is not exactly playing the world's top cop.
I see the 68'ers are true to form. It's their infantile world view or you are spreading "hate". The point that it takes two to tango and what we might consider to be democracy and market liberalism, someone else might see as neocolonialism and cultural warfare never entered their heads. Narcissism.
The ones urging for a western style secular democracy in the Mideast consist of a thin veneer among the educated middle classes and elites, and they formed during the period of western predominance when Islam was weak and European civilization was considered an ideal. They do not represent the brunt of the body politic. Rather, they're kind of like the remnant house niggers of the Muslim world if you will, so yeah, how does it feel being an agent of cultural imperialism?
INTP 1970 Core X
Well, as you are aware, some Frenchmen did, but the point hits home hard. A classic case of Montesquieu versus Rousseau. When Rousseau wins, it always ends the same way. Politically correct slaughter - of minds or people - ensues.
Well said.Do you have any evidence that ANYONE in the Syrian opposition understands this? I suspect if you did, that you wouldn't be that enthusiastic for their cause.
Last edited by Tussilago; 05-26-2013 at 10:36 AM.
INTP 1970 Core X
