Originally Posted by Justin '77

Also, your patriotic quote about standing and waiting notwithstanding, I'd say Kiff is only being reasonable in requesting (forgive me, ma'am, if I assume too much) that one be willing to commit oneself to the same course of action one would impose on another, especially if imposed for ones own sake. Free speech rights never even enter into it (though hypocricy often does...)

Yeah, that's about the size of it, Justin. Thanks. :-)

Originally Posted by monoghan

So if you are not willing to sign up for the police academy, then the cops should be...disbanded?....not used?....not place themselves in harm's way because you wouldn't.?....

Interesting example. I would be willing to take risks to protect my life and my family's, and have taken and continue to take precautions which would allow me to act in such a situation -- if it ever arises. Please note that this did not involve membership in any particular 'team'. Please also note that I would prefer the police leave everyone alone who is not putting me (or family or those I care about) at risk. In addition, I would not consider asking a police officer (or any other person) to take a bullet for me -- much less instructing him to.

At the same time, I wouldn't necessarily expect that a person join any particular team to help "take out" the Axle of Elvis Supreme Hitler of the Month. A person who feels it is important enough can buy themselves a plane ticket and go join an opposition group over there, or start an opposition group themselves, or send their own money / supplies. Team membership is not necessary to avoid hypocrisy; personal commitment is.

Please finally note that my use of any particular term should not be taken as an attempt on my part to stifle debate. The english language is what it is, and I choose my words based on that fact.

Justin,
A nuanced and thoughtful reply.....not normally what is found from those who use the "hypocrisy" argument, but then most of those never got far enough into LOTR to find Treebeard.

Your response would limit the job of all public servants to your personal preferences for their job. Obviously, there are lots of personal preferences so we elect people to make those decisions.

The constitution was established to provide for the common defense. It placed the executive as commander in chief. In a representative democracy, everyone gets to argue what is needed for the common defense, without having to take up arms (that's the 2nd amendment and another topic). Or having to go overseas to assassinate a bad guy (something that is illegal for American citizens).

Kiff's argument is the old old one used by mothers to send the decision maker (some old guy) or his son to war when her kid was being conscripted. But no draft and the argument loses its oomph. Pacifists always protest the last war.

Regarding the "chicken hawk" phenomenon -- my view is that it's important to separate the judgment on the personal behavior of such persons from evaluation of their views. A hypocrite may still be right in his professed value, he just fails to live up to them. Nor does that make him any less a hypocrite.

Bill Clinton and George W. Bush both avoided service in Vietnam. Clinton opposed the war while Bush supported it. Bush's avoidance of service was arguably worse than Clinton's, since he was effectively saying that he supported having less-privileged young men go and fight while he stayed home in safety. Clinton was saying nobody should go fight, including himself.

But that is purely an individual judgment; it says nothing about which man was right about the war itself.

Regarding Alex, he has yet to be called to fight, and we don't know if Millennials will be in large numbers. It's valid as a personal question to ask if Alex would be willing to put his vulnerable flesh where his mouth is, and he certainly should ask himself that, but even if he wimps out that doesn't mean he's wrong.

Originally Posted by monoghan

Kiff's argument is the old old one used by mothers to send the decision maker (some old guy) or his son to war when her kid was being conscripted.

Yes, and keep in mind that I'm old enough to be Alex's mother. :-o And in the grand scheme of things, my own kids aren't that much younger than he is. Of course I want to protect them. And if they are going to be called to serve their country within the next 10-15 years, I want it to be for a cause that I can live with. And "infinite justice" ain't it.

But no draft and the argument loses its oomph. Pacifists always protest the last war.

I am not a pacifist. And if we're talking about the "last war," to which are you referring?

I fully supported the Gulf War; in fact, I was upset that it didn't go far enough. I supported the intervention in Bosnia. I supported (and still do) the action in Afghanistan to wipe out the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I supported the intervention in Haiti.

If you're going all the way back to Vietnam, well, I was just a kid during most of that war and just wanted the damn thing over with because I was tired of hearing how many of our men were getting killed over there. :sad:

This sort of thing is why being a superpower is incompatible with American values. Having the world's most powerful military tempts us to use it. Using it, we become an empire. As an empire, we cease to be a republic, and our freedoms are sacrificed on the altar of Mars.

Liberty cannot be imposed at the point of a sword. The sword may, at times, protect liberty against external threats, but it cannot impose it where it has never been. Only from within can freedom grow.

We cannot rule the world and remain America. But someone or something must rule the world, and so we must pass the burden of that rule on to another. But passing it to another nation-state would be a terrible risk.

We need a global government that works.

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

Yes, and keep in mind that I'm old enough to be Alex's mother. :-o

Unless you were born in the last half of December, you are older than my mom...

Originally Posted by AlexMnWi

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

Yes, and keep in mind that I'm old enough to be Alex's mother. :-o

Unless you were born in the last half of December, you are older than my mom...

:-o :-o :lol:

Touch&#233! :-D