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Thread: Is Election 2002 a Fourth Turning election? - Page 5







Post#101 at 11-04-2002 11:01 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-04-2002, 11:01 AM #101
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
What do all the people who complained about Wellstone's memorial service being turned into a political rally think about the current "Campaigner in Chief" putting ole Clinton to shame with his intense recent political campaigning? On our tax dollars?
Did Kennedy personally pay for that campaign swing down to Dallas, in November of 1963? And just when did Clinton stop campaigning?

What a ridiculous question.







Post#102 at 11-04-2002 11:19 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
What do all the people who complained about Wellstone's memorial service being turned into a political rally think about the current "Campaigner in Chief" putting ole Clinton to shame with his intense recent political campaigning? On our tax dollars?
Did Kennedy personally pay for that campaign swing down to Dallas, in November of 1963? And just when did Clinton stop campaigning?

What a ridiculous question.
Just heard this morning on National Public Radio that the amount of time and the number of political visits that President Bush has been making during this election cycle is setting a record and far outpaces that of previous presidents, including the much vilified Clinton (who was referred to as the "Campaigner in Chief"). The man has made five visits to South Dakota recently, campaigning for the Senate race there!!!

It's an election cycle. Perhaps people are sensing that it is a key (first 4T?) election, even if they know nothing about S&H theory (or have heard of it but don't give it much credance). Whatever the turning it be, all quarters -- Dems, GOP -- are pulling all the stops to win control of the House and Senate.

My point is that it is hypocritical to complain about the Wellstone rally (or Clinton's campaigning during his tenure as President) and not bat an eyelash about President Bush's record-breaking pace as a campaigner.

So there!
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#103 at 11-04-2002 11:51 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
It's not the celebratory spirit that's the problem. It's the admixture of direct electoral political activity, and the 'rally' spirit.
No, it sounds like the problem is that the Flatulent Fraud (incidentally, the single most vile example of today's Machiavellian human garbage) has you dittoheads all stirred up. I don't recall getting the sense that he manages to sucker you generally, HC, but he suckered you on this one bigtime. You sound like Barry Lynn from that church/state separation organization, for gosh sake!

Look, this is ridiculous. Of course any guy who lived a cause is going to have a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service. Wellstone lived a cause and quite naturally he would have a "Win One For the Gipper" service. This is not a "conspiracy," HC, contrary to the Flatulent Fraud's currently floated flatus. Had Wellstone died a year ago, there still would have been a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service but you would not be saying anything (ultimately because the Flatulent Fraud would not be saying anything). You are only saying something because we are close to the election and you are four-square in favor of giving the Machiavellian human garbage in the White House their Congressional majorities such that they can successfully impose on us their beloved Homeland Security Act, National ID Card, etc. (things you no doubt opposed your entire life leading up to 2000 when your party did not pretend to support these things, unlike today obviously).

So based on the timing, you, following the Flatulent Fraud's lead, wish to politicize this tragedy with "equal time" arguments! That is sick. Just let it go. If you want "equal time," then maybe the White House will "be so kind" as to knock off one of their own candidates in order to give you a legitimate excuse for "equal time." They still have 24 hours to act! Jam that White House switchboard!

I sincerely hope that you find such a method of gaining "equal time" highly distasteful (even if the Machiavellian human garbage in the White House should not). But short of this happening, just let it go and stop politicizing this tragedy. The man died. The man fought a cause all his life. The man would have had a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service regardless of the timing of his death. Deal with it. Ignore the Flatulent Fraud and let it go.







Post#104 at 11-04-2002 12:23 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-04-2002, 12:23 PM #104
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THE BASHING OF A HOPEFULCYNIC

One weekend's worth of bashing from a supposed libertarian, who goes by the name of "Stonewall Patton":

"HC, you Bush Republicans really need to find hobbies."

"You Bush Republicans are becoming nearly as despicable as the Bush crowd which you willfully support."

"Yes, and your and all these other Bush Kool-Aid drinkers' despicable arrogance in presuming to dictate how others conduct their memorial service reveals far more about the depths of depravity to which you have willingly sunk by handing over your souls in supporting this Machiavellian human garbage in the White House."

"You people are sick."

"You people are absolutely despicable."

"Why don't you people find a hobby and keep your noses out of other people's drawers? Gross."

"Absolutely despicable, HC. Get a hobby and mind your own business."

"No, your audacity in going out of your way to traumatize a family in their moment of grief is what is pathetic and twisted. Get a life."

"get your nose out of other people's underwear. It is absolutely disgusting."

"And you are going to keep milking it like the despicable partisan Bush Kool-Aid drinker which you have always tried strenuously not to protray yourself as."

"Get it? Now get a life and quit dancing on dead men's coffins like a Bush Kool-Aid drinker."

"Have you always been a Bushbot or was it only triggered by this grieving family's memorial service? Seriously."

"If you are a Bushbot, then it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you".

"So are you going to continue to insult my intelligence by insisting that the Office of Homeland Security".

"So based on the timing, you, following the Flatulent Fraud's lead, wish to politicize this tragedy with "equal time" arguments! That is sick. Just let it go."

"Ignore the Flatulent Fraud and let it go."

"I don't get angry at anybody anymore, HC."

"There is no hatred, HC."

Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic
As for the increasingly uncivil and abusive character of your [Stonewall's] postings, that's your business, and your problem. All I will add is that your anger is your right, but the constant and growing flow of personal insults in your postings weakens the thrust of your arguments, which I find relevant and sometimes sound. But the more your postings trend toward the personal insults (Kool Aid drinker, etc), the more likely others are to skip even bothering to read them.
I think Joe Walsh pretty much summed it up, HC: "You Can't Argue With A Sick Mind"







Post#105 at 11-04-2002 01:49 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-04-2002, 01:49 PM #105
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All the arguing, on the Wellstone memorial, can now stop. At the end of the day, the Democrats managed to offend the one with the power to speak louder than mere words:

Ventura names Barkley to succeed Wellstone
Jackie Crosby
Star Tribune Published Nov. 4, 2002

On the eve of the most hotly contested U.S. Senate vote in decades, Gov. Jesse Ventura today appointed state planning commissioner Dean Barkley to complete the term of Paul Wellstone, who died in a plane crash on Oct. 25.

Ventura announced his plans for filling the vacant seat at 10 a.m. just as a scheduled debate between Democrat Walter Mondale and Republican Norm Coleman began. Ventura said he was appointing Barkley in "direct protest" to the debate organizers' exclusion of other candidates.

Ventura earlier had said he would not appoint an interim senator until after the election on Tuesday.

"I changed my mind," he said.




For nearly two months, as a result of the Wellstone memorial, it is quite possible, the Democrats will be forced to yield power in the U.S. Senate to the GOP. :wink:







Post#106 at 11-04-2002 04:02 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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Robert Byrd states the only practical strategy for this election: vote Democrat solely to put a monkey wrench in the Bush administration's agenda. If the Republicans gain control of the Senate, then the Office of Homeland Security, the National ID Card, the Orwellian War Without End and all that other Bushit is a done deal. Also, say hello to Chief Justice Scalia. As a Reagan Republican, I never thought I'd see the day that I would be forced to say this but, if you value your liberty, please vote Democrat. Straight ticket preferably, but Senate certainly. We have no choice at this point.


?The people should elect a Democratic Senate and House of Representatives in order
to keep the brakes on a jingoistic, saber-rattling, power-hungry administration headed
by multimillionaires from corporate boardrooms. The president and his administration
will be in office for two more years. The nation needs a Democratic Congress to temper
the big business, cowboy agenda of the president?s team.?


--Sen. Robert Byrd (D-Fighter)





Look very closely:









Post#107 at 11-04-2002 04:19 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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11-04-2002, 04:19 PM #107
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Weirdness already in Florida:


Posted on Sat, Nov. 02, 2002

Early birds, long lines: Crowds, complex ballot slow the process
`I didn't think I'd have to wait an hour'
BY SOFIA SANTANA, EVAN S. BENN AND MARTIN MERZER

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/news/...cs/4426014.htm







Post#108 at 11-04-2002 04:54 PM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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The above photo can ONLY mean one thing!
There is a massive cover-up conspiracy to hide the truth
from the American People.
It has to be hidden from the loyalist sheep because we
simply can't handle the truth:
OUR BELOVED PRESIDENT IS REALLY SUPERMAN, HE CAN SEE THOUGH WALLS!







Post#109 at 11-04-2002 08:41 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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11-04-2002, 08:41 PM #109
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Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
I AM against the Homeland Security agency, Stonewall, it's one of the many things I don't like about the Bush Administration.
Good. Then you will agree that the surest way to hamstring this awful thing is to pull the lever for straight Democrat tomorrow so that the Bush administration has the greatest possible difficulty in implementing this little gem of theirs.

The only thing I disgree with you on, and only in part, is that all domestic intelligence agencies are equivalent to the Gestapo.
I thought you might go for the "kinder, gentler" argument. This is irrelevant. We do not have "domestic intelligence agencies" in America. This runs contrary to the spirit of the Constitution and it is rather pointless to attempt to reconcile it with the letter of the Constitution. Don't make excuses, just get rid of it. There is no excuse. The best we can do at this point is vote straight Democrat tomorrow to tie this thing up and buy time until someone will remove it.

I don't like even the concept. Something similar was floated during earlier administrations, and even J. Edgar Hoover, no great exemplar of individual rights, got queasy at the concept and helped kill it. I'm rather hoping the idea gets gutted this time 'round, too.
Good, then surely you will vote straight Democrat tomorrow since it is the Bush administration which is attempting to impose this thing. If the Republicans take control of the Senate, it's a done deal. Therefore, the Democrats must maintain control of the Senate.

But you know what? The stuff we're seeing out of Bush's Administration, in my considered opinion, based on watching them and the previous occupants for a combined total of 10 years now, is nothing much compared to what Gore would have tried to do.
Irrelevant as you well know. Whatever the Bush administration sets up will be in place for the successor, and the successor may well be Gore or Hillary, take your pick. This MUST GO, no ifs, ands, or buts. It is not the abuse of power; it is the power to abuse. It is the recognition of this obvious truth which convinced the Founding Fathers to give us a Constitution with specifically enumerated powers. Even if the Virgin Mary runs the thing today, someone else will run it tomorow, and someone will abuse this power. It is not a question of if, it is only a question of when. There is no gray with respect to this issue. It MUST GO. Vote straight Democrat tomorrow to stall the thing and minimally buy time.

This one is easier to fight, precisely because it runs counter to the grain of many of the people who have to support it for it to go through. Even many of the people giving it lip service publically are not pushing it very hard behind the scenes, or it would be in place right now.
This is the same BS we have heard for 20 years about everything, yet none of these "whisperers" behind the scenes ever manage to stop anything. It MUST GO and we can no longer afford to rely upon such invariably unrewarded wishful thinking. Vote straight Democrat tomorrow in order to stall the thing and buy time.

Now, as for the Democrats, they oppose this thing (for the most part, there are exceptions) for one primarily reason, the attempt by Bush to set it up without public-employee unions in place. They don't want to stop it, they want to control it.
This is very true but the Democratic stalling is the best that we can hope for at this point. Additionally, the Bush administration refuses to sign any bill which does not remove whistleblower protection. Imagine: no whistleblower protection for employees of an agency which must operate entirely in secrecy in the absence of all accountability. Only unambiguous Machiavellian human garbage would demand such a totalitarian prerogative. But then consider the source. The Democrats MUST retain control of the Senate for the time being. Only they can be counted upon to minimally tie up the plans of the unambiguous Machiavellian human garbage in the White House.

Neither party is inherently 'good' or 'evil'. Both are partly dominated by corporate/aristocratic types, partly by various specific interest groups interlocked as allies and opponents, and partly by individuals impelled by specific ideologies. My considered opinion is that the GOP represents the lesser evil at the moment, and in spite of the PATRIOT Act (which I like no better than you), the better chance of avoiding a surveillance state.
No, no. It is not the Democrats who gave us this, it is the Republican Bush administration. Those buildings were still on fire on Manhattan and Junior trotted out his handy-dandy plans to arbitrarily remove the Bill of Rights and set up a domestic intelligence agency (USA PATRIOT Act and Office of Homeland Security). At this point, the only way to stop it is to support the Democrats in opposing the Republican Bushit in the White House. And this is so obvious on the face that I should not have had to even write this paragraph. This exemplifies why intelligent discourse is impossible with the Bush Kool-Aid drinkers. But I tried with you, HC. Vote straight Democrat tomorrow since it is quite obviously our only option.

Let me break here but I may come back and finish your post later. However there is no point in discussing math, for example, if you will not agree with me at the outset that 2 + 2 = 4. It is the Bush administration pushing this crap, not the Democrats. Therefore, if you sincerely oppose it as you claim, it is the Bush administration which must be stopped, not the Democrats, OBVIOUSLY. You cannot stop it if you further empower the party imposing it (the Bush administration). This is very basic. Our only recourse right now is to ensure that the Democrats continue to hold the Senate so that they can minimally stall the Bush administration in imposing this. If the Republicans take control, it is all over; a done deal. Very simple.







Post#110 at 11-04-2002 08:47 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-04-2002, 08:47 PM #110
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Honestly, HC, if you respond to this, one more time... I'll... I'll...

Sheesh, I'll do somethin' I'll regret!







Post#111 at 11-04-2002 09:11 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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11-04-2002, 09:11 PM #111
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Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
What do all the people who complained about Wellstone's memorial service being turned into a political rally think about the current "Campaigner in Chief" putting ole Clinton to shame with his intense recent political campaigning? On our tax dollars?
Did Kennedy personally pay for that campaign swing down to Dallas, in November of 1963? And just when did Clinton stop campaigning?

What a ridiculous question.
You have to think of the principle of the Memorial Service. The problem was NOT that it got political in the first place. The problem was that they called it a memorial service, so it wasn't supposed to be political. That's the difference between the memorial service and Bush's campaigning. Everyone knows that Bush's campaigning will be political, because that's what it's billed as, and that's what its supposed to be.
1987 INTP







Post#112 at 11-04-2002 09:29 PM by jds1958xg [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,002]
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Hi!







Post#113 at 11-04-2002 10:00 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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http://www.democraticunderground.com...11/02_ten.html

(Excerpted)



The 10 Commandments (GOP Modified)
November 2, 2002
By Maureen Farrell


[snip]



1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Except for mammon. Because, while the meek may inherit the earth, Poppy's defense contracts insure G.W. inherits the cash. When Prescott Bush was nabbed doing business with the Nazis in World War II, he was penalized under the Trading with the Enemy Act. When Dick Cheney did the same in Iraq, he became vice president. More proof that the GOP has a direct pipeline to GOD.

2. Thou shall not misuse the name of the Lord, your God. Unless, of course, you're justifying the horrors of perpetual war. In which case, assure that you're good and they're evil and invoke God's name regularly. Make references to "God and country" and infer that "GOP" stands for "God's Only Party." Instruct CNN to link Senate Democrats to Satan, Barbra Streisand and Larry Flynt.

3. Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. If you start a War on Terror on, oh, say Sunday, October 7, for example, fool people into believing you're on a crusade to capture Osama "dead or alive." At all times, restrain from giggling at their gullibility. Instead, focus on how controlling the gateway to Caspian Sea oil will be downright heavenly.

4. Honor thy father and mother -- especially when someone tries to kill your dad with some of the very same weapons your dad gave him to kill other people with.

5. Thou shalt not kill. Unless it involves profit, revenge and/or oil. Who, besides Jimmy Carter, believes that whole "blessed be the peacemakers" thing anyway?

6. Thou shall not commit adultery. Although Newt Gingrich or Tim Hutchinson have received special finger-pointing dispensation, this one sticks. Adultery reminds folks of budget surpluses and millions upon millions of wasted tax dollars.

7. Thou shalt not steal. Unless you're pilfering land for the Texas Rangers or dabbling in insider trading or are a righteous Captain of Industry and need the oil.

8. Thou shalt not give false testimony against they neighbor. Except in cases where you're waging war for profit. In which case, make up stories about babies in incubators and nuclear capabilities and magical drones and mystical aircraft carriers.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. Which isn't a problem, because who cares about sex when you've got your war on?

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods. Unless they have oil. Or unless Dick Cheney's underground bunker is better than yours, in which case, you should start wondering why Dick always gets to preside over the shadow government and hang out in that cool, undisclosed location and all you get is this lousy tee-shirt.


As you can see, the new and improved 10 Commandments are easier to follow. And, as a member of the GOP, you get to be on the right side of God and county - no matter what! Although don't look too closely at the fine print. Or at Cheney's or Limbaugh's or Gingrich's eyes. Because, if you do, sooner or later you'll see that though belonging to God's Oil Party may enhance your piousness, in the end, it can cost you your soul.







Post#114 at 11-04-2002 10:26 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-04-2002, 10:26 PM #114
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Hey, all you Bush-hating libs out there: Here's a great chance for you to see BusHitler, up close and personal!

Tune in tomorrow night for Journeys with George, er, BusHitler: "An unprecedented, all-access pass to candidate George W. Bush in the months before he won the closest and most controversial presidential election in history."

I heard the review this evening on NPR's All Things Considered. It's directed by liberal, Alexandra Pelosi (that's Nancy's grand-daughter, I believe), so it's bound to give you libs all the ammo you need on this BusHitler guy.

Okay, so tune in, or out, or whatever, man. :wink:

God love ya.







Post#115 at 11-04-2002 11:37 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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11-04-2002, 11:37 PM #115
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
What do all the people who complained about Wellstone's memorial service being turned into a political rally think about the current "Campaigner in Chief" putting ole Clinton to shame with his intense recent political campaigning? On our tax dollars?
He hasn't even come close to matching Clinton, Jenny.

But this is not the same thing, for either president. The president is legally required to travel in high security, under certain special conditions. The only way he can avoid spending tax payer money is to never travel and never campaign. Note that very few right wingers ever complained that Clinton campaigned using Air Force One or Marine One, etc.

We disapproved of some other activities he used them for, but campaigning is a presidential perk that comes with the territory.

Note that this doesn't apply to the First Lady. We did complain about Hillary using those same resources for her Senate campaign. If Laura Bush tried the same thing, it would be equally bad.







Post#116 at 11-04-2002 11:41 PM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lamb
Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
What do all the people who complained about Wellstone's memorial service being turned into a political rally think about the current "Campaigner in Chief" putting ole Clinton to shame with his intense recent political campaigning? On our tax dollars?
Did Kennedy personally pay for that campaign swing down to Dallas, in November of 1963? And just when did Clinton stop campaigning?

What a ridiculous question.
Just heard this morning on National Public Radio that the amount of time and the number of political visits that President Bush has been making during this election cycle is setting a record and far outpaces that of previous presidents, including the much vilified Clinton (who was referred to as the "Campaigner in Chief"). The man has made five visits to South Dakota recently, campaigning for the Senate race there!!!

It's an election cycle. Perhaps people are sensing that it is a key (first 4T?) election, even if they know nothing about S&H theory (or have heard of it but don't give it much credance). Whatever the turning it be, all quarters -- Dems, GOP -- are pulling all the stops to win control of the House and Senate.

My point is that it is hypocritical to complain about the Wellstone rally (or Clinton's campaigning during his tenure as President) and not bat an eyelash about President Bush's record-breaking pace as a campaigner.

So there!
No, it's not. We didn't (most of us) complain about Clinton's campaigning across the country (where he raised his money from is another matter).

As for the Wellstone Memorial Pep Rally, we're not annoyed that they are campaigning, we're annoyed that they tried to disguise their pep rally as a memorial service, with the specific intention of delegitimizing their opponents' campaigns.

If you respected Wellstone and his family's grief, you'll cede the election to Mondale! was the semi-overt subtext of the whole business, and in fact this was stated aloud at one point.







Post#117 at 11-05-2002 12:01 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
It's not the celebratory spirit that's the problem. It's the admixture of direct electoral political activity, and the 'rally' spirit.
No, it sounds like the problem is that the Flatulent Fraud (incidentally, the single most vile example of today's Machiavellian human garbage) has you dittoheads all stirred up. I don't recall getting the sense that he manages to sucker you generally, HC, but he suckered you on this one bigtime. You sound like Barry Lynn from that church/state separation organization, for gosh sake!
Stonewall, you STILL don't get it.

No, I don't base this on Limbaugh, though he and I came to the same conclusion in this case. I had reached this conclusion on my own the day before I heard Limbaugh even speak about it. What I saw and heard with my own ears was quite sufficient.

You seem to be under the impression that Bush and Limbaugh send out control programs that all conservatives echo. It just doesn't work that way. Granted, Limbaugh is a staunch partisan, and he often skips over the bad side of the GOP as he lambastes his opponents. But the fact remains that most conservatives came to approximately the same conclusions with or without him. Your hatred for him doesn't change the fact that he is often correct. Incidentally, you could be completely right about him, and he could still usually tend to be correct, since a good liar has to use truth as a tool to sustain lies. But if you've got yourself convinced that conservatism is Limbaugh's echo, you're kidding yourself.

Faced with the same information you're looking at, we're not all drawing the same conclusions. It's conceivable that you're right and the rest of us are wrong, but we're neither hypnotized nor stupid, no matter how much you want things to be that way. Only a small fraction of the electorate sees things as you do, for good or ill. Perhaps that will change with time and more evidence, it hasn't yet.


Look, this is ridiculous. Of course any guy who lived a cause is going to have a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service. Wellstone lived a cause and quite naturally he would have a "Win One For the Gipper" service. This is not a "conspiracy," HC, contrary to the Flatulent Fraud's currently floated flatus. Had Wellstone died a year ago, there still would have been a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service but you would not be saying anything (ultimately because the Flatulent Fraud would not be saying anything). You are only saying something because we are close to the election and you are four-square in favor of giving the Machiavellian human garbage in the White House their Congressional majorities such that they can successfully impose on us their beloved Homeland Security Act, National ID Card, etc. (things you no doubt opposed your entire life leading up to 2000 when your party did not pretend to support these things, unlike today obviously).
Stonewall, as I said before, get a grip. The things you are saying here are losing touch with the cold facts. I STILL oppose the national ID card, and in my opinion the GOP is less likely to create one than the Democrats. I've thought that for years, and on balance I still think it, though we may end up with one in either case.


So based on the timing, you, following the Flatulent Fraud's lead, wish to politicize this tragedy with "equal time" arguments! That is sick. Just let it go. If you want "equal time," then maybe the White House will "be so kind" as to knock off one of their own candidates in order to give you a legitimate excuse for "equal time." They still have 24 hours to act! Jam that White House switchboard!
Stonewall, there is no evidence whatever that Wellstone was murdered. NONE.

You still don't quite get what was going on that night. Whatever Wellstone would have wanted was never relevant, this was entirely about Mondale, and Senate control. This couldn't have been done a year ago, since it requires an ongoing election to occur. It was, quite simply, an attempt to harness grief to create a public perception that opposing Mondale was insulting to Wellstone's memory.

If this tactic is allowed to work, it will become standard, and you'll find yourself facing the very people you most oppose, combining their policies with some personal matter and declaring it off-limits to opposition on that basis.

"Anyone who respects the memory of WHOEVER will not insult it by arguments about our need to review the contents of the hard drives!.

It wouldn't have to be a death, it could be any excuse to declare a public political dispute 'personal and private'. But that is precisely the precedent this sort of thing has the potential to set.

Fortunately, it appears to have backfired on them even within Minnesota, the general perception there appears to be not too different from mine, based on Sunday's polling data (which admittedly could be totally wrong).

But short of this happening, just let it go and stop politicizing this tragedy. The man died. The man fought a cause all his life. The man would have had a "Win One For the Gipper" memorial service regardless of the timing of his death.
The only 'conspiracy' was one of a few Democratic leaders, such as McAuliffe, Clinton, Mondale, and some of the AFL-CIO people, apparently with the consent of Wellstone's relatives. Would he have approved? I have no idea, it's beside the point. By making this a deliberate, focused attempt to neutralize opposition, they nullified its private aspects.

I know you want this to be a personal matter for Wellstone's family, I know you want everyone to believe that Bush is the greatest standing threat, but you simply have not made the case.

But without regard to Bush's plans, intentions, or desires, the fact remains that the Democrats and Wellstone's relatives politicized this, not their GOP foes and not me. If you can't cope with or grasp that basic reality, that's your problem in the end.







Post#118 at 11-05-2002 12:10 AM by HopefulCynic68 [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 9,412]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer of Evil
So maybe the service was supposed to be a political rally too. Why is that a problem? Maybe it's what Wellstone would have wanted ... for people to laugh and joke and have a good time remembering him, and then fight like hell to keep his political agenda alive. What's wrong with that?

I think that conservatives really couldn't care less about people showing a lack of respect for the man. It seems to me that what really bothers them is seeing anyone promote the Democratic agenda.
No, what bothers us is that they tried to use the real grief to suppress any political opposition to that agenda. They were seeking to harness it, so to speak, to make running against Mondale be perceived as insulting to Wellstone. It didnt work, but they did try it.

As I said before, if all they had done was throw a wild party, that would be there business. I might personally find it tasteless or I might not, but it would be none of my business either way. But this was something quite other than that.







Post#119 at 11-05-2002 01:04 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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11-05-2002, 01:04 AM #119
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Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton
Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
It's not the celebratory spirit...
No, it sounds like the problem is that the Flatulent Fraud (incidentally, the single most vile example of today's Machiavellian human garbage) has you dittoheads all stirred up...
Agggrrrhhh!

Ah, yes, OTH, while the they maybe Machiavellian human garbage, can you not understand Stonewall, the Machiavellian human garbage mean well? The Machiavellian human garbage has your best interest in their Machiavellian human garbage mind, Stonewall? OTH, while I can understand that you perceive the Machiavellian human garbage as Machiavellian human garbage, what you need to understand, Stonewall, is that the Machiavellian human garbage really isn't what you think it is.

What the Machiavellian human garbage really is, is decent Machiavellian human garbage that only seeks to do well by the American people, Stonewall. The Machiavellian human garbage doesn't really want to take all your freedom away in a Machiavellian human garbage way, but in a nice, kind, decent, wonderful, loving, sweet, innocent, Biblical, Jesus, kinda of unMachiavellian human garbage way.

Get it, Stonewall?


p.s. Hey guys, did ya hear? The Machiavellian human garbage kilt some of the bad guys today. Yeah, kilt them DEAD! KABOOM! DEAD!








Post#120 at 11-05-2002 01:52 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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11-05-2002, 01:52 AM #120
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Stonewall. While you are an intelligent person, albeit off your rocker, your not without your wits.
But, I really must object to your use of the term "Flautulant Fraud".
It just doesn't work, man.
Daddy's Boy , that works, it makes sense, you know?
Hitlery, it works.... :evil:
Croaker calling me smutmom 8) for using the smutty word "Phalus",
well, that even works too.
But, Flatulent Fraud?? What does that have to do with anything?
Rush farts? That's just stupid.
Why don't you call him, "Lush Rumball" for example?

Hope that helps :lol:







Post#121 at 11-05-2002 02:06 AM by Max [at Left Coast joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,038]
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11-05-2002, 02:06 AM #121
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Well, it appears we are about to find out the answer to the Question that started this thread.

Is Election 2002 triggering a 4T?

And away we go...........................

See you all tomorrow night. :-?







Post#122 at 11-05-2002 03:22 AM by Rain Man [at Bendigo, Australia joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,303]
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11-05-2002, 03:22 AM #122
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Quote Originally Posted by justmom
Well, it appears we are about to find out the answer to the Question that started this thread.

Is Election 2002 triggering a 4T?

And away we go...........................

See you all tomorrow night. :-?
Americian elections are hard to predict because of non-compulsory voting system the United States has, given the very low number of competivite races in the House of repsentatives, I doubt much will change. Although the fate of the Senate depends really on the turnout levels. Even if the Republicans gain narrow control over both the Senate and the House of reps, Bush is going to find implenting his agenda only somewhat easier.







Post#123 at 11-05-2002 04:43 AM by Glass Joe [at la France joined Sep 2002 #posts 135]
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11-05-2002, 04:43 AM #123
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer of Evil
So maybe the service was supposed to be a political rally too. Why is that a problem? Maybe it's what Wellstone would have wanted ... for people to laugh and joke and have a good time remembering him, and then fight like hell to keep his political agenda alive. What's wrong with that?

I think that conservatives really couldn't care less about people showing a lack of respect for the man. It seems to me that what really bothers them is seeing anyone promote the Democratic agenda.

Marc, I told people that they could turn off the T.V. if THEY didn't like what they were seeing, not if YOU didn't like what they were seeing.

XoE
Absolutely right... this seems to make more sense than any other explanation; now for a few more random comments:
HopefulCynic, I may disagree with what you have to say but I am impressed by the way you can take the heat and stay particularly civil about it (Kiff might have had a point!)
Stoner, your posts on this thread continue to tickle my funny bone (I love the '10 commandments' :-)) and similarly, I enjoy the sarcastic aspect of Marc's posts (even if I disagree with most of what he had to say)

And FWIW, this election may or may not tell much about the turning we're in... remember the 'Republican Revolution' of 1994? It may still be a good gauge, but I'd say voter turnout is a better indicator (30-40% is par for the course for 3T midterm elections; if we get 50% or more it is more likely to be 4T - and my prediction for voter turnout is 41% :-))

Similarly, Ventura definitely made an interesting appointment in the Senate... but who would expect him to appoint any but his own kind? :-)







Post#124 at 11-05-2002 08:31 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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11-05-2002, 08:31 AM #124
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Quote Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68
Quote Originally Posted by Kiff '61

I am trying to project how I would react had this happened to a conservative Republican. I can only hope that I would rise above my partisan feelings and look upon it as a tragedy equal to those that befell Mel Carnahan and Paul Wellstone.
I for one never said Wellstone's death wasn't a tragedy, Kiff.

As for the hypothetical conservative death, if his family and the GOP turned the memorial it into an unabashed rally, they'd be skewered in the popular media and by the Democrats, and they would deserve it.
HC, I wasn't thinking of you specifically. Actually, both you and Marc Lamb both expressed sympathy for the Wellstone family very soon after the crash occurred. I appreciated and admired that sentiment from the other side of the political aisle.







Post#125 at 11-05-2002 09:30 AM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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11-05-2002, 09:30 AM #125
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Why are Republicans so smarmy?
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