Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by justmom

But, my point is the consensus that happens within the 4T. The polar opposites wont be in play. And just because they are Boomers, doesn't mean they are automatically Left.

Actually, historically consensus in the 4T is something of the exception. Of the last six Crisis periods, 4 were marked by internal conflict, if you count the Revolutionary War as 'internal' (it started as a civil war). Only the Glorious Revolution and the Depression/WW II were marked by internal societal consensus.

OH. :-?

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by justmom

But, my point is the consensus that happens within the 4T. The polar opposites wont be in play. And just because they are Boomers, doesn't mean they are automatically Left.

Actually, historically consensus in the 4T is something of the exception. Of the last six Crisis periods, 4 were marked by internal conflict, if you count the Revolutionary War as 'internal' (it started as a civil war). Only the Glorious Revolution and the Depression/WW II were marked by internal societal consensus.

OH. :-?

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

Sure they do. What are airplanes other than long-distance mass transit?

If you could hop on an HSR and get from downtown Columbus to midtown Manhattan in three hours -- comparable to flying once you factor in transportation to Port Columbus airport, taxiing out, taking off, landing, and getting from JFK to Times Square, would travelers line up to use the system? If the price were comparable to flying, you bet they would!

If you could get from Columbus to Seattle in ten hours, comparable to flying when you factor in the aforementioned, plus connecting in Minneapolis, would people use the system if the price were comparable to flying? I would!

And should the price of petroleum quadruple or worse, as is very possible in this Fourth Turning, magnetically-levitated (solar-power-assisted?) trains might actually come out far ahead economically when compared to aircraft.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

Sure they do. What are airplanes other than long-distance mass transit?

If you could hop on an HSR and get from downtown Columbus to midtown Manhattan in three hours -- comparable to flying once you factor in transportation to Port Columbus airport, taxiing out, taking off, landing, and getting from JFK to Times Square, would travelers line up to use the system? If the price were comparable to flying, you bet they would!

If you could get from Columbus to Seattle in ten hours, comparable to flying when you factor in the aforementioned, plus connecting in Minneapolis, would people use the system if the price were comparable to flying? I would!

And should the price of petroleum quadruple or worse, as is very possible in this Fourth Turning, magnetically-levitated (solar-power-assisted?) trains might actually come out far ahead economically when compared to aircraft.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

Sure they do. What are airplanes other than long-distance mass transit?

If you could hop on an HSR and get from downtown Columbus to midtown Manhattan in three hours -- comparable to flying once you factor in transportation to Port Columbus airport, taxiing out, taking off, landing, and getting from JFK to Times Square, would travelers line up to use the system? If the price were comparable to flying, you bet they would!

If you could get from Columbus to Seattle in ten hours, comparable to flying when you factor in the aforementioned, plus connecting in Minneapolis, would people use the system if the price were comparable to flying? I would!

And should the price of petroleum quadruple or worse, as is very possible in this Fourth Turning, magnetically-levitated (solar-power-assisted?) trains might actually come out far ahead economically when compared to aircraft.

Hey, I'd be perfectly happy to use a good, high speed train to go across the country. Also, hopefully with feeder lines into the more rural areas. I absolutely hate and despise Seatac and would actually prefer to see the countryside on my journey if if if it was a nice, clean, fast train with amenities (sleeper cars, perhaps?)
The security crap they have now would easily get me on a train...they probably would be less worried since the train can't be hijacked and flown into skyscrapers, nuclear plants, etc.

Hey, I'd be perfectly happy to use a good, high speed train to go across the country. Also, hopefully with feeder lines into the more rural areas. I absolutely hate and despise Seatac and would actually prefer to see the countryside on my journey if if if it was a nice, clean, fast train with amenities (sleeper cars, perhaps?)
The security crap they have now would easily get me on a train...they probably would be less worried since the train can't be hijacked and flown into skyscrapers, nuclear plants, etc.

Hey, I'd be perfectly happy to use a good, high speed train to go across the country. Also, hopefully with feeder lines into the more rural areas. I absolutely hate and despise Seatac and would actually prefer to see the countryside on my journey if if if it was a nice, clean, fast train with amenities (sleeper cars, perhaps?)
The security crap they have now would easily get me on a train...they probably would be less worried since the train can't be hijacked and flown into skyscrapers, nuclear plants, etc.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

delete

delete

delete

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

And paying for it, too --



-- oh, wait. I guess the gov't could just take the money. After all, they know best.

It must be great to be king.

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

How does one reconcile these divergent paths of bitterness and individualism?

The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."

Moses said to the LORD , "Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD , are with these people and that you, O LORD , have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say, 'The LORD was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'

"Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."

The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Conclusion? Just let 'em die.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

How does one reconcile these divergent paths of bitterness and individualism?

The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."

Moses said to the LORD , "Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD , are with these people and that you, O LORD , have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say, 'The LORD was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'

"Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."

The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Conclusion? Just let 'em die.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

--oh, wait...i forgot. It's Big Business that always knows best! Right???

Whatever.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Each individual is the sole arbiter of what is in his own best interest (as he is the only one fully aware of what his interests are). Neither a ruling Sovereign nor a ruling corporatist Planner can begin to approach the accuracy with which a human being knows himself and his needs and desires.

How does one reconcile these divergent paths of bitterness and individualism?

The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."

Moses said to the LORD , "Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, O LORD , are with these people and that you, O LORD , have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say, 'The LORD was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'

"Now may the Lord's strength be displayed, just as you have declared: 'The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.' In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now."

The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth, not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Conclusion? Just let 'em die.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

Sure they do. What are airplanes other than long-distance mass transit?

If you could hop on an HSR and get from downtown Columbus to midtown Manhattan in three hours -- comparable to flying once you factor in transportation to Port Columbus airport, taxiing out, taking off, landing, and getting from JFK to Times Square, would travelers line up to use the system? If the price were comparable to flying, you bet they would!

If you could get from Columbus to Seattle in ten hours, comparable to flying when you factor in the aforementioned, plus connecting in Minneapolis, would people use the system if the price were comparable to flying? I would!

And should the price of petroleum quadruple or worse, as is very possible in this Fourth Turning, magnetically-levitated (solar-power-assisted?) trains might actually come out far ahead economically when compared to aircraft.

Granted, as far is it goes.

But can we realistically do it that cheaply? Also, since the system would require track of whatever sort we end up choosing, can you predict where the system needs to go accurately enough to make it work?

Don't get me wrong, on one level I find the idea appealing, but some nagging little voice in me says there'll be problems in practice.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

A national high-speed railway system! Now THAT is an idea I could get behind!!! It would be a total blast to design, and would probably take me the rest of the way to retirement. Alas, I suppose the planning phases will have to wait until at least mid-Crisis, around the year 2011, as society begins laying the groundwork for a new golden era (we hope). But I'll still be young enough to participate in it. Wow!

Unfortunately, the real problem would be convincing anyone to use it once it was built. Americans don't have a record of using mass transit as long as any other option is available.

Sure they do. What are airplanes other than long-distance mass transit?

If you could hop on an HSR and get from downtown Columbus to midtown Manhattan in three hours -- comparable to flying once you factor in transportation to Port Columbus airport, taxiing out, taking off, landing, and getting from JFK to Times Square, would travelers line up to use the system? If the price were comparable to flying, you bet they would!

If you could get from Columbus to Seattle in ten hours, comparable to flying when you factor in the aforementioned, plus connecting in Minneapolis, would people use the system if the price were comparable to flying? I would!

And should the price of petroleum quadruple or worse, as is very possible in this Fourth Turning, magnetically-levitated (solar-power-assisted?) trains might actually come out far ahead economically when compared to aircraft.

Granted, as far is it goes.

But can we realistically do it that cheaply? Also, since the system would require track of whatever sort we end up choosing, can you predict where the system needs to go accurately enough to make it work?

Don't get me wrong, on one level I find the idea appealing, but some nagging little voice in me says there'll be problems in practice.