Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: China - Page 12







Post#276 at 09-13-2009 03:29 PM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
09-13-2009, 03:29 PM #276
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

Border with India








Post#277 at 09-17-2009 04:17 PM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
09-17-2009, 04:17 PM #277
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

Cancer Villages

"Across China, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of small, anonymous villages that are suffering the consequences of the country's rapid economic expansion, villages with rates and types of cancers that experts say can only be due to pollution."

No national health care system, and many peasants have no medical insurance

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...58G00T20090917







Post#278 at 09-28-2009 06:22 PM by MyWhiteDevil [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 49]
---
09-28-2009, 06:22 PM #278
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
49

Thomas Friedman: The "New Sputnik" is China going Green.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/op...gewanted=print







Post#279 at 10-01-2009 10:13 AM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
10-01-2009, 10:13 AM #279
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

IMO, misguided US government policies for the last 16 years (approx) have propelled the nation to it's current troubled state. This isn't the thread for me to babble on about the violent gang problems, the ridiculous war on drugs, or other domestic policies, therefore I'll stick to China. First I will opine that our Western Civilization is being controlled by a rich and powerful minority (fraction of 1%) that contains way too many morons (Silent generation appeasers?).

Many years ago I questioned why the US wanted to open up trade with this Communist country. Then years later, even the WTO let China join! This policy has essentially been a form of appeasement with a totalitarian regime, and China is not the only nation that received this. US businesses could have been importing more cheap products from favored democratic nations, such as those in the OAS, and improving the industrial base of said nations.

Years ago I also predicted that Communist China would launch small expansionary wars of aggression. Thankfully I was wrong and only internal repression ensued.

Come celebrate how Mao Zedong killed millions and united the country!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33108782...s-asiapacific/

This guy wrote about the elite political class:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaetano_Mosca
Last edited by Blairamir; 10-01-2009 at 10:18 AM.







Post#280 at 10-01-2009 02:33 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
10-01-2009, 02:33 PM #280
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

They did it because they saw a huge untapped market for their goods. Now add in a really cheap place to put their factory, where unions did not raise wages, nor environmental regulations stand in the way of producing stuff Real Cheep ---

ideology? Stand in the way of profits? Silly wabbit - that's for kids!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#281 at 10-13-2009 02:32 PM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
10-13-2009, 02:32 PM #281
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

Some comparisons between India and China
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1661...ticle_sb_picks

Pretty good website for learning Chinese
http://www.zhongwen.com/







Post#282 at 10-15-2009 06:11 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
10-15-2009, 06:11 AM #282
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

Meanwhile, Xinjiang is in the news again:


China sentences six more to die for Xinjiang unrest
By Marianne Barriaux (AFP)

BEIJING China on Thursday sentenced six more people to death over bloody ethnic unrest in its far-western Xinjiang region in July, bringing the total to 12 as it delivered tough retribution over the violence.

Three of the six were given the death penalty with a two-year reprieve, a sentence usually commuted to life in prison, over the riots that the government says left 197 dead, in the worst ethnic violence in China in decades.

A court in the regional capital Urumqi sentenced three others to life in jail and five people to lesser prison terms for their role in the unrest that rocked the city, according to a Xinjiang government statement faxed to AFP.

The violence that erupted on July 5, which pitted mainly Muslim minority Uighurs against members of China's dominant Han group, also left more than 1,600 injured.

A total of 21 defendants have been tried and convicted since Monday of murder and other crimes such as intentional damage to property, arson, and robbery. Security had been ratcheted up in Urumqi ahead of the trials.

Six Uighurs were given the death penalty on Monday and another sent to prison for life, in a move that Uighur exiles said would further stoke ethnic tensions in the vast region bordering Central Asia.

On Thursday, one man with a Han Chinese name -- Han Junbo -- was among those sentenced to death for beating a Uighur man to death, the statement said. Another apparently Han man, Liu Bo, was given a 10-year jail term.

Six of the other defendants had names that appeared to be Uighur, and the rest were not immediately identified, according to the government statement.

One of those sentenced to death, apparently a Uighur, was found guilty of beating two people to death with another defendant, as well as stealing people's possessions, including mobile phones and bracelets.

Uighur exiles strongly condemned the first riot-related death sentences on Monday, calling them the "first of the mass executions promised by the Chinese government."

"The Uighurs can do nothing other than hope that the world will stop China from continuing the bloody repression of the Uighur people," a statement emailed to AFP by the World Uighur Congress read.

Rebiya Kadeer, the exiled leader of the congress who lives in the United States, said Tuesday during a visit to New Zealand that the death sentences would serve only to "further enrage" her people.

France also reacted to the sentences, with foreign ministry spokesman Bernard Valero expressing regret Tuesday "that European diplomats were not allowed to attend the rioters' trial."

Aside from the 21 tried this week, police have also detained around 700 people suspected of crimes related to the unrest, earlier reports have said.

Residents in Urumqi contacted by AFP said Thursday the city was calm amid a heavy security presence.

"We don't worry too much but still we cannot relax our vigilance. The armed police are still on duty in bustling streets," a woman at a drug store, who refused to be named, said over the phone.

China vowed to come down hard on those found guilty, with President Hu Jintao and other top leaders saying the "organisers, key members, and the serious violent criminals must be severely punished," Xinhua news agency said.

The country's roughly eight million Turkic-speaking Uighurs have long complained of religious, political and cultural oppression by Chinese authorities, and tensions have simmered in the Xinjiang region for years.

China says it faces a serious terrorist threat from Muslim separatists in Xinjiang, but rights groups have accused Beijing of exaggerating the threat in order to justify very tight controls in the region.

Authorities have blamed the Xinjiang unrest on "ethnic separatists", without providing any evidence.

But Uighurs say the violence was triggered when police cracked down on peaceful protests by Uighurs over a brawl in late June at a factory in southern China that state media said left two Uighurs dead.

One ethnic Han man was sentenced to death and a second handed a life prison term over that brawl in verdicts announced on Saturday in southern China.

Copyright 2009 AFP. All rights reserved.



The red type stands for Red China - get it?
Last edited by '58 Flat; 10-15-2009 at 06:14 AM.
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#283 at 10-15-2009 06:59 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
10-15-2009, 06:59 AM #283
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Perhaps the Uighurs, Taiwanese, Manchurians, and the Tibetans should team up and revolt against the Chinese and support each other for separation from China.

I know it seems pretty fanciful a daydream, but wouldn't it be interesting if they did?

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#284 at 10-15-2009 07:18 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
10-15-2009, 07:18 AM #284
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Perhaps the Uighurs, Taiwanese, Manchurians, and the Tibetans should team up and revolt against the Chinese and support each other for separation from China.

I know it seems pretty fanciful a daydream, but wouldn't it be interesting if they did?

~Chas'88
You never know, one thing can lead to another. China's revolution ended in 1949 with Mao's victory. Most of us here suspect that the 1989 democracy wall movement and the later Tein an Mein square events were the last events of a Chinese awakening-40 years later. China should be due for another 4T by the 2020's.







Post#285 at 12-22-2009 11:43 PM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
12-22-2009, 11:43 PM #285
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

Generation Tiananmen Square








Post#286 at 01-09-2010 01:48 AM by MillieJim [at '82 Cohort joined Feb 2008 #posts 244]
---
01-09-2010, 01:48 AM #286
Join Date
Feb 2008
Location
'82 Cohort
Posts
244

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/bu...2DYYTiLAlxT1fw

Someone thinks China's economy is too good to be true...







Post#287 at 01-09-2010 04:29 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
01-09-2010, 04:29 AM #287
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

If all else fails, they can always go back to flooding the West with heroin!
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#288 at 01-09-2010 02:26 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-09-2010, 02:26 PM #288
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
If all else fails, they can always go back to flooding the West with heroin!
Careful, dude... you could trigger a wave of Awakening nostalgia!
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#289 at 01-09-2010 02:54 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
01-09-2010, 02:54 PM #289
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
If all else fails, they can always go back to flooding the West with heroin!
That's what is going to happen if we build a paved road system near the poppy fields in Afghanistan. And if I understand correctly, the plan is to build such a road system to enable the < 30k troops we have there to nation build.







Post#290 at 01-09-2010 04:14 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-09-2010, 04:14 PM #290
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
That's what is going to happen if we build a paved road system near the poppy fields in Afghanistan. And if I understand correctly, the plan is to build such a road system to enable the < 30k troops we have there to nation build.
Of course... if we in the West would simply quit using the stuff, there'd be no market for it. I don't buy into the argument that poverty renders those who would use drugs no choice.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#291 at 01-09-2010 04:55 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
01-09-2010, 04:55 PM #291
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Of course... if we in the West would simply quit using the stuff, there'd be no market for it.
Unfortuantly, I don't think that its possible to modify private behavior with illegal substances enough to get there. Look at how long it's taking to phase legal cigarettes out of public life. IMHO, treating this and related issues as medical problems rather than as a legal ones, as we do tobacco consumption, would best mitigate their harm to the larger society.

Quote Originally Posted by R'59
I don't buy into the argument that poverty renders those who would use drugs no choice.
Over the years, I've met a number of people in various 12 step programs.
Generally, most people I've known that ended up in such programs actually got there because prosperity allowed them to party to excess.







Post#292 at 01-09-2010 10:57 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-09-2010, 10:57 PM #292
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
Unfortuantly, I don't think that its possible to modify private behavior with illegal substances enough to get there. Look at how long it's taking to phase legal cigarettes out of public life. IMHO, treating this and related issues as medical problems rather than as a legal ones, as we do tobacco consumption, would best mitigate their harm to the larger society..
That could work. Legalize drugs, and treat those who care enough to be... however, allow those who would OD to have at it, thus ridding society of them... lock up and throw away the key on those who commit crimes under their influence.


Over the years, I've met a number of people in various 12 step programs.
Generally, most people I've known that ended up in such programs actually got there because prosperity allowed them to party to excess.
Of course. Back in the '80s, the cocaine capital of the United States was (drumbeat and fanfare, please)... Wall Street.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#293 at 01-10-2010 12:51 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
01-10-2010, 12:51 AM #293
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Of course... if we in the West would simply quit using the stuff, there'd be no market for it. I don't buy into the argument that poverty renders those who would use drugs no choice.
Yup. And if only people would cease and desist from every form of sin....
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#294 at 01-10-2010 05:04 PM by radind [at Alabama joined Sep 2009 #posts 1,595]
---
01-10-2010, 05:04 PM #294
Join Date
Sep 2009
Location
Alabama
Posts
1,595

Quote Originally Posted by '58 Flat View Post
If all else fails, they can always go back to flooding the West with heroin!
But, remember that the Opium war was fought to keep Great Britain from flooding China with opium.







Post#295 at 01-14-2010 01:16 AM by Dewdman42 [at joined Nov 2009 #posts 6]
---
01-14-2010, 01:16 AM #295
Join Date
Nov 2009
Posts
6

Quote Originally Posted by herbal tee View Post
You never know, one thing can lead to another. China's revolution ended in 1949 with Mao's victory. Most of us here suspect that the 1989 democracy wall movement and the later Tein an Mein square events were the last events of a Chinese awakening-40 years later. China should be due for another 4T by the 2020's.
I don't think their 4T is that far forward. We had our last crisis 4T event in 1945. China's was 1949. that is only 5 years apart. That puts 1989 as the end of the awakening and 2009 as the end of Unraveling. Our unraveling appears to have gone on a little longer then expected and perhaps theirs is too. According to generational shifts, they should be due for 4T within 5 years or less.







Post#296 at 01-14-2010 02:14 AM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
01-14-2010, 02:14 AM #296
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Quote Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post
I don't think their 4T is that far forward. We had our last crisis 4T event in 1945. China's was 1949. that is only 5 years apart. That puts 1989 as the end of the awakening and 2009 as the end of Unraveling. Our unraveling appears to have gone on a little longer then expected and perhaps theirs is too. According to generational shifts, they should be due for 4T within 5 years or less.
Good observation. Welcome to the forum. :

Perhaps I should elaborate.
If we see the next Chinese 4T intertwine with ours, the years of the 2020's will be critical.
IMHO, in that time period brinksmanship is highly likely. I just hope the positioning doesn't go too far.







Post#297 at 01-14-2010 05:13 AM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
---
01-14-2010, 05:13 AM #297
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Hardhat From Central Jersey
Posts
3,300

Quote Originally Posted by radind View Post
But, remember that the Opium war was fought to keep Great Britain from flooding China with opium.

Actually I was referring to the more recent accusations made by some on the right in this country in the early-to-mid-1970s.

Remember those bumper stickers with a pair of scissors and a syringe, accompanied by the slogan "Cut The Red China Connection"?
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#298 at 01-17-2010 04:43 PM by MyWhiteDevil [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 49]
---
01-17-2010, 04:43 PM #298
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
49

While the U.S. was perpetually stuck in "studying" a "high-speed rail system"*, China went ahead and built a real one.

*: in the Midwest, topping out at about 125 mph, which ironically could have been achieved as far back as 1935 by the steam-powered streamliners on the Chicago-Twin Cities line.







Post#299 at 02-04-2010 02:11 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
02-04-2010, 02:11 AM #299
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Intriguing BBC documentary about International Corporations & the Counterfeiting trade. It specifically looks at China's counterfeiting business in the documentary. Which after looking @ this documentary, seems to be the driving force behind the Chinese economy... This definitely changes my outlook on China.


Episode 1

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-K54pXcyxs
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEK-G...eature=related
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSNHR...eature=related
Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Cs4...eature=related
Part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHpci...eature=related

Episode 2

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HheLM...eature=related
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYEcF...eature=related
Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fKD...eature=related
Part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvvyn...eature=related
Part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs2II...eature=related



Scary notes:

China can fake eggs, which contain harmful industrial chemicals which can cause dementia. However they are cheaper to make than it costs to keep a chicken.

And don't forget the fake medicines that people find for salein pharmacies in the West, that were made in China.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#300 at 02-19-2010 03:01 PM by aadams1980 [at Port Orchard, WA joined Feb 2010 #posts 281]
---
02-19-2010, 03:01 PM #300
Join Date
Feb 2010
Location
Port Orchard, WA
Posts
281

China

Quote Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59 View Post
My comments above prompted a quizzical response in an email. My response follows:

Actually, I'm also convinced that China is on the same cycle as North America.
However, I think that they are a few years delayed behind the US. China's
revolution didn't end until 1949, which means their crisis didn't end until
then, either. BTW, that corresponds with both the trough of the secular bear
market and the end of the fourth turning in Europe. Work backwards 18 years
for a standard modern turning length and we get 1931, the year Japan conquered
Manchuria. That makes for a good crisis catalyst. Work forward 3-4 years for
a regeneracy and we get 1934-1935, the Long March, which propelled Mao to the
leadership of the Chinese Communist Party and Gray Champion status. Fits
nicely enough for me!

The part you may have misunderstood is that China's leaders usually occupy the
Elderhood bracket, unlike the US, where they usually occupy midlife. This
means that they are a generation behind the US even though their turnings are
only a few years behind. I count Mao as a very late Prophet, not a Nomad. He
managed to last until the next Awakening (I think that the Cultural Revolution
would then be an attempt to control the direction of the early Awakening,
although it smacks more of last gasp High witchhunting to me)! Deng was a
Nomad and governed like one. He managed the Awakening into Unravelling
transition (this would make Tienanmin Square a failed end of Awakening event as
much or more than an Alienating event for Nomads). Jiang Zemin would then be a
late Hero, even though he presided over most of the Unravelling. So China
would still be primed to go into crisis, but with old Artists in charge, not
the expected midlife Prophets!
I recently started looking into this and I noticed the same thing, though at first I doubted there would be such similarities. Though when I looked at it, I'm not done yet so I may realize I'm wrong - I'm just making some initial observations - I think that the Crisis may have begun somewhere along the Northern Expedition of '26-28 or the Chinese Civil War in '27 - since the Crisis ended with the Communists' victory. I agree about the Awakening - I was earlier wondering if Mao somehow sensed that he had to harness the idealistic energy of the Prophet generation, but maybe he just adapted to events. If you put a gun to my head I'd put the High at 49-56, Awakening at '66-89, Unraveling 89-present. I don't think China has a Crisis catalyst yet though I'm sure they will. I also am seeing that the past two decades saw an increase in youth crime - since their awakening ended later maybe they just have a long Nomad generation. Though I'm trying to figure out if this fits with the effects of the 1-child only policy. If it still holds up in spite of that it shows how consisent this theory is (though no one said it had to apply to China, but it would tell us a lot if it did).

At first I also thought of Deng as a Nomad considering his "black cat white cat" pragmatism. However, you look at when he was born ('04) and he was too young. He fits in the China Long March generation (their Greatest Generation). If my date for the crisis is correct he was 23 or so when it began, if yours is he was '27. You know what... now that I type this out and look at the numbers I think the jury is out on the boundary of that generation. I need to do more research on that.

Another interesting thing about China - I have to try to find where I heard this - China is changing their policy in order to bring younger leaders to the fore - so get ready for China's boomers to come to power. Those guys made Kent State look like a clam bake.
-----------------------------------------