Originally Posted by Dunán

Charles Hugh Smith -- one of my favorite bloggers -- has this to say about younger Japanese people in their 20s and 30s and their alienation from society:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/ca...uths/19580780/

Much of it echoes what we've been saying about the Lost/"Ice Age" Generation here.

It seems Japanese Nomads have it even rougher. Perhaps the down side to a highly communal society?

Thanks for posting that article, Dunán. I find much there that mirrors my own experience.

I read about hikikomori before in an English magazine I bought to give to my g/f. I saw what article posted above was about and thought I would mention the hikikomori and everyone would think I was smart, but it was mentioned so I'll just point out some of what the English magazine said.

Sometimes the hikikmori function quit well in other countries. In the article it mentions a Japanese who moved to Thailand and the bus was late and nobody seemed to care and then he thought "I could handle living in a country that isn't so rigid" (The buses in Japan are always right on time, am I right?)

This reminds me of the Lost writers who left America because of the lack of cosmopolitan culture in the states.

The hikikmori they interviewed said he will go out at night and barely talk to people. He's afraid people just know he is a failure so he didn't want to deal with them.

Do any X'ers relate to this?

I don't remember anything else of significance, but it did mention he got his social interaction from video games and the internet. He is supported by his parents "parasite single"

Pizal, I'm curious; are there hikikomori-like people in China? Isn't the gap between haves and have-nots a lot bigger than it is in Japan?

One of the things we're seeing in Japan these days with the economy still down and the Powers That Be becoming ever more naked in their desire to strip-mine some segments of society (Ice Age and Yutori '70s-'90s people) so that others (Boomers) can live well is an ever-widening gap between the haves and the have-nots: the kakusa shakai, as Mr. Smith describes; a "gap society".

I've got some sympathy for these shut-ins. As a non-Japanese, kept outside of society somewhat, I feel it myself sometimes -- some days I just don't want to go out of the house and have to go through the social niceties with people who think they're better than me. In my case, some of the frustration comes from the fact that despite my looks, I can understand and speak the language, and find it exhausting to deal with store clerks who suddenly throw away the refined polite language and customer service that Japan is justly famous for and replace it with childish broken English and babyish gestures. The social lubricant of polite language can be more soothing than you might think.

Japanese society is big on filling expected roles, and people can be quick to decide how they expect you to behave just from one look at you. For a foreign person, some of the stereotypes include not speaking the language, being a bit insensitive but also gregarious and energetic. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for that, and it makes going out into the world (even if just to the 7-11 to buy potato chips) a little sterssful.

That's some personal griping from me. But now multiply that by ten for your typical hikikomori. Introverted to begin with. And there's not much of a stigma towards people who look down on hikikomori and treat them with contempt. When I remind some restaurant waiter than I'm not a stupid illiterate, I can count on a little bit of shame on the perpetrator, but how is a typical shy young man to deal with that passive aggression? So they stay indoors even more. A vicious circle ensues.

And while the most obvious manifestation of the kakusa shakai is the gap in wealth, we've got another one in the social realm as the Ice Agers lucky enough to have steady work and a good circle of friends find themselves out of touch with people in the opposite position; the "Japan, Inc." days of equality are done.

Both groups of Ice Agers, of course, are still begging for scraps at the Boomers' table; lifetime employment is gone, high wages are on their way out, and taxes on those of working age are up and going higher. And no sign of any willingness of the more numerous Boom generation to sacrifice so that the smaller generations after them don't have to make even bigger sacrifices.

Originally Posted by Dunán

I've got some sympathy for these shut-ins. As a non-Japanese, kept outside of society somewhat, I feel it myself sometimes -- some days I just don't want to go out of the house and have to go through the social niceties with people who think they're better than me. In my case, some of the frustration comes from the fact that despite my looks, I can understand and speak the language, and find it exhausting to deal with store clerks who suddenly throw away the refined polite language and customer service that Japan is justly famous for and replace it with childish broken English and babyish gestures. The social lubricant of polite language can be more soothing than you might think.

Japanese society is big on filling expected roles, and people can be quick to decide how they expect you to behave just from one look at you. For a foreign person, some of the stereotypes include not speaking the language, being a bit insensitive but also gregarious and energetic. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for that, and it makes going out into the world (even if just to the 7-11 to buy potato chips) a little sterssful.

That is exactly what happens to me in China. LOL. I always tell people being a foreigner in China is like being a B-level celebrity. People stare at you and want to talk to you and expect you to entertain them. Yeah, for some reason they think all Americans are extroverts. I think only extroverts can handle all the attention you get from being foreign.
I totally understand the desire to withdraw from the culture completely so I have a soft spot for them as well. That's why I read the article that was intended to help Chinese learn English. It's cultural fatigue.
I don't know of any hikikmori types in China. I have real problem putting my finger on the Nomad generation in China. They are amoral (more amorl than generation X), but they don't seem to be a cynical. I also think that the confidence level of the nomads is lower, but China has a lot of national pride even from people who think the government is wrong. Very Ethnocentric (I hear Japan may be the most ethnocentric society there is though). That could be why they don't shut themselves off. They have more opportunities to go out and make money because the economy is growing. Starting a business in China is much easier than it is in the states. Those are just some thoughts on the subject.

Latest news from Japan, where the Ice Agers, frozen out of the stable employment system, are forced to live on subsistence wages as a record number of people ages 15-34 are now contract workers.

http://japantoday.com/category/featu...w_all_comments

One insightful comment mentioning how Japan's Boomers are ignoring the travails of the Lost/Ice-Age X/Y-ers (and in doing so, I would add, ignoring the reason the birthrate is at an all-time low as today's 30-year-olds can't afford kids):

People spend too much time worrying about their grandchildren (raise taxes, cut the debt, no deficit spending) than they do about their children.

Young people have not had the chance to work in a secure environment, build careers, fall in love, settle down, or have families. Most have not had the chance to build a decent set of skills. This parasite singles thing is just a mode of private welfare. Young people should be able to get jobs where they can support SOME kind of lifestyle. 130 000 yen per month is not great. I suppose I could make it work, but I doubt a typical person could. More than anything, providing ENOUGH work that someone could feasibly work two jobs to get ahead would still be a step in the right direction.

Japan: A Modern History by James L. McLain

The book is organized in a way that that helps determine turnings. For example, the last chapter includes material about the Awakening of recent years.

Japanese SuperSub DVD

A potential Point of Departure was the assination of Admiral Yamamoto. Without the backing of the powerful admiral, the I-400 program began to slip in Japan's priorities.

Yamamoto needed a way to shock the U.S.A. into a negotiated peace. He concieved the I-400 class - in effect, an underwater aircraft carrier. In addition to guns and torpedoes, the sub would sport a water tight hanger. Three float planes (dive bombers) were to be stored, their wings folded up. The submarine would surface and launch the planes with a steam catapult. Upon return, the planes would be plucked from the water with a crane.

America's West Coast cities were to be targeted. Even East Coast cities were considered targets. The planes might have attacked iconic targets in New York City (somehow this sounds familiar), and perhaps even reached Washington D.C.

In December 1944 the first SuperSub, the I-400, was commissioned, followed by the I-401. The war had turned against Japan. An alternative plan was considered and rejected - to use the aircraft to attack the West Coast with biological weapons.

By the summer of 1945, the new plan was to be a kamekazee raid on the Panama Canal. But Okinawa made this obsolete - most of America's naval strength was already in the Pacific.

The two subs finally sailed for Ulithi atoll, to attack the invasion fleet that was being assembled. The attack did not take place; both subs were captured.

The subs were sunk off Hawaii in 1946.

The Return Of History And The End Of Dreams by Robert Kagan (copyright 2008)

This book is about geopolitics in the 21st century.

"Although Japanese politics has been volatile, 'it is not difficult to discern the nationalistic impulse here today,' as one observer of Japanese society has noted. 'It is found in comics and movies, in an enthusiasm for World Cup soccer, in indignation over North Korean missiles and, far from least, in Japan's anxiety over China's emerging influence.' Nor should anyone imagine that Japanese prosperity is the antidote, any more than it has been for China or Russia. 'Japan has been searching to discover its genuine identity,' observes veteran politician Koichi Kato. 'For decades we thought this lay in economic achievement - in catching up to America. But we've done that now. We're affluent. So for the past 20 years we've been soul searching - looking for something we should aspire to next.' Being relegated to second-class status by a rising China is not among those aspirations."

Japan has a labor shortage. Unstated cause-tight control of immigration?

James50

Originally Posted by James50

Japan has a labor shortage. Unstated cause-tight control of immigration?

James50

They also have an aging population.

Originally Posted by James50

Japan has a labor shortage. Unstated cause-tight control of immigration?

James50

That's why they invest so heavily into automation. Japanese culture is very anti-immigration because the Japanese view of their own ethnicity is very "blood and soil" to an absurd degree.

A member of these forums Old Toby ages ago, observed that Japan is roughly a turning behind us.

According to him the last 2T started in the late 1980's roughly, which was after a High which lasted from the mid 60's onwards and before that a Crisis which started in the end years of WW2. The whole Pacific war which started withe Japanese invasion of Manchuria was in a Unraveling (WW1 was an unravelling war for the west) for Japan. So right now Japan is in the early stages of an unraveling.

A good exercise for somebody to do is to imagine the USA c.1984 would have dealt with a massive natural disaster (say a Mega earthquake in San Francisco, St Louis or Los Angeles) combined with a meltdown in a local nuclear power plantor two.

Anyway I wonder how old are these Japanese who are flocking back into the rural areas to take up farming. I would notbe surprised if they were middle aged Idealists, who for example in Australia decided to move in large numbers to various small towns and cities out in the "bush" since the 1980's.

Originally Posted by Tim Walker '56

The Coming War With Japan is a fascinating study in geopolitics. This is a must read by anyone interested in the last Crisis period. The authors listed Japan's geopolitical interests of that period:1. To keep the home islands under the control of a central gov't. and a unified army.2. To maintain control of the seas around Japan's islands with a costal navy in order to avoid invasion.3. To dominate land masses threatening this localized sea control (Korea, Liaotung, Taiwan).4. To be the dominant naval power in the northeast Pacific as far south as Taiwan, and as far southeast as Iwo Jima.5. To secure and maintain control of access to Japan's mineral sources in either mainland China or Southeast Asia by dominating the entire western Pacific and excluding all foreign navies.All of these were goals were lost in 1945. However, preoccupied with the Soviet Union, the U.S. gov't. rehabilitated Japan as a Cold War bulwark. The Japanese were permitted to regain control of their gov't. and rebuild their economy. The U.S., in effect, dominated South Korea and Taiwan for Japan, and kept the sea lanes open as part of a free trade regime (which was intended to bolster Cold War allies). [ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-04-06 08:53 ]

I think it is a good time to review Japanese geopolitics.

I like the theory that Japan is about one turning behind us. Makes sense when you consider the fact that it's always seemed apparent that Japan was socially about a generation behind us (for example, with regards to women's rights). The period that roughly lines up with our Awakening era here in the U.S. (1964-1984) was a time of massive economic expansion for Japan, and an "era of good feelings" - not unlike the American 1T of 1946-1964. I think it's hard to argue that Japan was in a High during the 1950s when we were in a High. They lost the war. They had to spend a generation rebuilding their war torn cities and establishing their post-war government (but only after gaining sovereignty from the American occupiers, which itself took nearly a decade).

The other theory that seems plausible to me is that World War II was equivalent to a Civil War 4T - a Crisis era that was only a few years long, and produced no Hero archetype. This theory seems especially attractive considering the fact that WWII ended so badly for Japan, just as the Civil War produced didn't produce a nice, happy WWII-style resolution for us. The Reconstruction era post Civil War 1T might be equivalent to a 1950s era 1T for Japan.

Originally Posted by Normal

I like the theory that Japan is about one turning behind us. Makes sense when you consider the fact that it's always seemed apparent that Japan was socially about a generation behind us (for example, with regards to women's rights). The period that roughly lines up with our Awakening era here in the U.S. (1964-1984) was a time of massive economic expansion for Japan, and an "era of good feelings" - not unlike the American 1T of 1946-1964. I think it's hard to argue that Japan was in a High during the 1950s when we were in a High. They lost the war. They had to spend a generation rebuilding their war torn cities and establishing their post-war government (but only after gaining sovereignty from the American occupiers, which itself took nearly a decade).

Old Toby who posted on here ages ago, argued much the same as you are now. Also he had an deep understanding of Japanese history and it's society.

Originally Posted by Ghost Echo

Well I believe the earthquake-tsunami-meltdown have plunged them into their crises period. Every time I watch NHK world news almost every piece seems to revolve somehow around that event. While the west may have forgotten about the event, it appears from the news broadcasts that it is the pivotal, nationwide event in modern Japanese social-history, dividing everything into pre and post. I guess on scale it to the US it might be if the entire Atlantic seaboard was hit with a 12.0 earthquake, 500 foot tidal wave, New York turned into a radiated dead zone, and the survivors of the east coast shell shocked and trying to make a new life as refugees in the Midwest.

Considering the fact that they're not that far into their Unraveling era, I'd wager that the tsunami is more like what 9/11 was to us - a huge Unraveling event that doesn't quite launch society into a 4T, but nonetheless sets the stage and the overall national mood that confirms to the general populace that things are falling apart in the outer world.

Also, the tsunami struck Tohoku, which might be more analogous to rural, coastal New England than the big cities of the Eastern Seaboard - there's only a few large cities (and certainly no massive ones anywhere near the size of the cities found along the Tokyo-Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto corridor), it's a mostly rural culture and population located in the northern part of the country that's known for its very cold winters. The biggest effect this has had on Tokyo and the more urbanized parts of Japan is that it has forced people to reduce energy consumption, which isn't anything to sneeze at considering the fact that Tokyo may very well have been the brightest city on the planet prior to the tsunami, but still. The area hit hardest by the earthquake / tsunami / nuclear disaster is a mostly rural area.

This doesn't take away from the disaster itself or the amount of human suffering that it caused, but at the same time, it would be a totally different story if this tsunami literally came crashing into Tokyo Bay. Tokyo itself suffered very minor damage as a direct result of the tsunami.

Events like this happen in any turning, the reaction to such events although does often indicate where a society is turning wise.

Originally Posted by Normal

I like the theory that Japan is about one turning behind us. Makes sense when you consider the fact that it's always seemed apparent that Japan was socially about a generation behind us (for example, with regards to women's rights). The period that roughly lines up with our Awakening era here in the U.S. (1964-1984) was a time of massive economic expansion for Japan, and an "era of good feelings" - not unlike the American 1T of 1946-1964. I think it's hard to argue that Japan was in a High during the 1950s when we were in a High. They lost the war. They had to spend a generation rebuilding their war torn cities and establishing their post-war government (but only after gaining sovereignty from the American occupiers, which itself took nearly a decade).

The other theory that seems plausible to me is that World War II was equivalent to a Civil War 4T - a Crisis era that was only a few years long, and produced no Hero archetype. This theory seems especially attractive considering the fact that WWII ended so badly for Japan, just as the Civil War produced didn't produce a nice, happy WWII-style resolution for us. The Reconstruction era post Civil War 1T might be equivalent to a 1950s era 1T for Japan.

Let's stop for a moment and look at some Japanese Culture. Since Disney Millennials have been inundated with Anime and Japanese culture, let's look at the evolution of its kid and teen demographics and what it aims at them, to try and understand, if we can, Japanese Turnings.

The latter days of WWII definitely were some sort of Crisis if we trust the "nostalgia films" that explore the period: Barefoot Gen and Graveyard of the Fireflies. Both depict wastelands that have come thanks to American bombings, where children have to fight to stay alive with some dying and others barely surviving by the stroke of luck. Meanwhile for the late 1950s nostalgia of childhood, we have My Neighbor Totoro. Nothing screams "High" like My Neighbor Totoro, which is essentially a Mary Poppins story. However it seems to be depicting the beginning of a new way of living (moving out to the country, away from the cities that are being rebuilt) that's both traditional and new at the same time--and again, this is set in the late 1950s.

Japan probably has just passed the mid-point on its Unraveling IMHO. The 1990s were the end of its Awakening. The 2000s with its high rate of teen suicide and negative teen culture mark me as Unraveling. Also the kid culture changed around 2000 for Japan, as it became more focused on "teamwork", "friendship" and "working together as a group" for the little kids demographic. And that's just observing trends in Anime.

Looking at 1980s Anime aimed at children: Castle in the Sky (1986) or Kiki's Delivery Service (1989), these stress the importance of children going out on their own, by themselves, and establishing their own independence and finding their own personal "inner" strength or talent. Yeah, Awakening childhood stuff right there (along the same lines of the original Sesame Street opening from 1969 of having kids explore and going around their own neighborhoods on their own--adults are cut out of the picture or are just not present).

Around 2000 we go from having very artistic and challenging plot lines in Anime and Manga that's typical of an Awakening culture: Akira from 1988 is DEFINITELY the kind of story that gets made during an Awakening (it's akin to A Clockwork Orange in my mind). Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (1984) an Awakening film of a different sort, Princess Mononoke (1999) is also an Awakening film--or an Awakening/Unraveling cuspy film one could argue now that I think on it. And we start going into either very splintery roads of differing genres in Anime that get more and more graphic (seriously a lot of that stuff is messed up and damn pornographic), or get "safer" and less challenging (most Americans are familiar with this and think of this when they think Anime).

In the late 1970s it should be noticed we have the beginning of the Super Sentai series (what's known as Power Rangers over here). However unlike Power Rangers in America, the original Japanese show (of which Power Rangers uses the fight scenes and films in-between scenes with the American actors) the story was that these were the best "fighters" who were gathered together to battle with evil, simply because they were the best of the best fighters. Teamwork isn't really a major theme in these stories, beyond it contributing to the fight--it's just something the American adapters added in. Sailor Moon, arguably the most popular Anime world wide, combined the genre of "magical girls" that was a popular trend with teenage girls at the time and "Super Sentai" fighting teams. There are also other fighting shows that are popular during this period, like Dragon Ball and its many subsequent sequel series. All these shows have one thing in common: a focus on fighting, where a single fight sequence can last multiple episodes (3 - 7 episodes in the Dragon Ball franchise), as well as there being "monster of the week" battles in addition to that. Mostly the plots of these shows are set dressings and excuses to have the fighting occur--unlike later shows (Digital Monsters being one) where fighting took a side step to character development and messages about teamwork and friendship. Also with later shows that came out in the 1990s the characters went from fighting battles themselves to having "partners" that fought for them. With only season four of Digital Monsters going back to this earlier theme where the characters become the fighters themselves--it's a concept that's abandoned thereafter in that franchise.


Also, it should be noted that in the late 1990s we have the release of both Pocket Monsters and Digital Monsters--both of which branch off of children's toys and create Anime series targeted at children that for the first time begin focusing on "teamwork", "friendship", "trust", "working together with a partner", and so on--much more so in Digital Monsters than in Pocket Monsters, but you can get the drift. The animes are purposely aimed at children, and IMO were like the American Care Bears movie (vehicles aimed at selling more toys: RPG video games for Pocket Monsters, Tamagachi-like games for Digital Monsters). Both handled the situation differently. The Pocket Monsters series is obviously on par with the "Care Bears" Movie (formulaic and repetitive plots, cardboard characters, and simply the video game in TV form with maybe a few tiny differences--it's mostly silly and not that serious), while the Digital Monsters series actually did something right by creating fairly dark plots, actual villains to fight, and sometimes really nicely developed character studies (I still can't believe the American censors missed the one point when the mother slaps her son in season one--they took out the gun violence and the showing of naked butts in there, but left the hard angry slap on the cheek from a parent in there)--actually expanding upon the franchise in a rather healthy way. The best seasons of the Digital Monsters series being: 1, 3, and 5--with 1 being probably the best character study of eight different characters in a kid's show, 3 being the darkest of the bunch for a kid's show (especially in its latter half of the series when character deaths start happening and a character goes nearly psychotic in reaction to the deaths), and 5 being the most "adult" as it's aimed at a larger demographic than just children, acknowledging that it wants to capture older viewers that watched the first season.

And last but not least, talking about Japanese teenagers. Around the late 1990s/early 2000s there was this weird obsession with young girl's panties that older men seemed to develop that was a bit "creeper" to say the least (kinda reminiscent of the Silent fascination with seeing young Xer teen girl actresses like Brooke Shields naked).

Let's also mention the fact that the movie that The Hunger Games is said to have "copied" is this Japanese "slasher" (to use the term loosely) movie called Battle Royale (2000 film based upon the novel written in 1999), which can only be referring to a Nomad teen culture, a culture that is "pessimistic" about its teenagers and thinks them a "lost cause".



Thus far, from what I can tell, at the end of each odd numbered decade, Japan seems to enter a new Turning:

late 1950s - enter High
late 1970s - enter Awakening
late 1990s - enter Unraveling

Therefore in the late 2010s it will enter its Crisis IMHO.

~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Let's stop for a moment and look at some Japanese Culture. Since Disney Millennials have been inundated with Anime and Japanese culture, let's look at the evolution of its kid and teen demographics and what it aims at them, to try and understand, if we can, Japanese Turnings.

The latter days of WWII definitely were some sort of Crisis if we trust the "nostalgia films" that explore the period: Barefoot Gen and Graveyard of the Fireflies. Both depict wastelands that have come thanks to American bombings, where children have to fight to stay alive with some dying and others barely surviving by the stroke of luck. Meanwhile for the late 1950s nostalgia of childhood, we have My Neighbor Totoro. Nothing screams "High" like My Neighbor Totoro, which is essentially a Mary Poppins story. However it seems to be depicting the beginning of a new way of living (moving out to the country, away from the cities that are being rebuilt) that's both traditional and new at the same time--and again, this is set in the late 1950s.

Japan probably has just passed the mid-point on its Unraveling IMHO. The 1990s were the end of its Awakening. The 2000s with its high rate of teen suicide and negative teen culture mark me as Unraveling. Also the kid culture changed around 2000 for Japan, as it became more focused on "teamwork", "friendship" and "working together as a group" for the little kids demographic. And that's just observing trends in Anime.

Looking at 1980s Anime aimed at children: Castle in the Sky (1986) or Kiki's Delivery Service (1989), these stress the importance of children going out on their own, by themselves, and establishing their own independence and finding their own personal "inner" strength or talent. Yeah, Awakening childhood stuff right there (along the same lines of the original Sesame Street opening from 1969 of having kids explore and going around their own neighborhoods on their own--adults are cut out of the picture or are just not present).

Around 2000 we go from having very artistic and challenging plot lines in Anime and Manga that's typical of an Awakening culture: Akira from 1988 is DEFINITELY the kind of story that gets made during an Awakening (it's akin to A Clockwork Orange in my mind). Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (1984) an Awakening film of a different sort, Princess Mononoke (1999) is also an Awakening film--or an Awakening/Unraveling cuspy film one could argue. And we start going into either very splintery roads of differing genres in Anime that get more and more graphic (seriously a lot of that stuff is messed up and damn pornographic), or get "safer" and less challenging (most Americans are familiar with this and think of this when they think Anime).

In the late 1970s it should be noticed we have the beginning of the Super Sentai series (what's known as Power Rangers over here). However unlike Power Rangers in America, the original Japanese show (of which Power Rangers uses the fight scenes and films in-between scenes with the American actors) the story was that these were the best "fighters" who were gathered together to battle with evil, simply because they were the best of the best fighters. Teamwork isn't really become a theme in the original series--it's just something the American adapters added in. Sailor Moon, arguably the most popular Anime world wide, combined the genre of "magical girls" that was a popular trend with teenage girls at the time and "Super Sentai" fighting teams. There are also other fighting shows that are popular during this period, like Dragon Ball and its many subsequent sequel series.

Also, it should be noted that in the late 1990s we have the release of both Pocket Monsters and Digital Monsters--both of which branch off of children's toys and create Anime series targeted at children that for the first time begin focusing on "teamwork", "friendship", "trust", "working together with a partner", and so on--much more so in Digital Monsters than in Pocket Monsters, but you can get the drift. The animes are purposely aimed at children, and IMO were like the American Care Bears movie (vehicles aimed at selling more toys: RPG video games for Pocket Monsters, Tamagachi-like games for Digital Monsters). Both handled the situation differently. The Pocket Monsters series is obviously on par with the "Care Bears" Movie (formulaic and repetitive plots, cardboard characters, and simply the video game in TV form with maybe a few tiny differences--it's mostly silly and not that serious), while the Digital Monsters series actually did something right by creating fairly dark plots, actual villains to fight, and sometimes really nicely developed character studies (I still can't believe the American censors missed the one point when the mother slaps her son in season one--they took out the gun violence and the showing of naked butts in there, but left the hard angry slap on the cheek from a parent in there)--actually expanding upon the franchise in a rather healthy way. The best seasons of the Digital Monsters series being: 1, 3, and 5--with 1 being probably the best character study of eight different characters in a kid's show, 3 being the darkest of the bunch for a kid's show (especially in its latter half of the series when character deaths start happening and a character goes nearly psychotic in reaction to the deaths), and 5 being the most "adult" as it's aimed at a larger demographic than just children, acknowledging that it wants to capture older viewers that watched the first season.

And last but not least, talking about Japanese teenagers. Around the late 1990s/early 2000s there was this weird obsession with young girl's panties that older men seemed to develop that was a bit "creeper" to say the least (kinda reminiscent of the Silent fascination with seeing young Xer teen girl actresses like Brooke Shields naked).

Let's also mention the fact that the movie that The Hunger Games is said to have "copied" is this Japanese "slasher" (to use the term loosely) movie called Battle Royale (2000 film based upon the novel written in 1999), which can only be referring to a Nomad teen culture, a culture that is "pessimistic" about its teenagers and thinks them a "lost cause".



Thus far, from what I can tell, at the end of each odd numbered decade, Japan seems to enter a new Turning:

late 1950s - enter High
late 1970s - enter Awakening
late 1990s - enter Unraveling

Therefore in the late 2010s it will enter its Crisis IMHO.

~Chas'88

I think I can live with this. I think by say, 1964, when the Summer Olympics were held in Tokyo Japan was in a High by then. The '64 Olympics was Japan's way of saying that it had arrived, that it had risen from the ashes of World War II. I might be inclined to say that the beginning of the High didn't occur until about 1960 or so, possibly a year or two later. I would throw out 1960 as a starting date since that's when the Second Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan was ratified.

This treaty solidified the groundwork for the postwar relationship between the U.S. and Japan, essentially granting the U.S. permission to use Japanese land as a strategic location for its military bases in Asia in exchange for full protection from any enemies in the region (a concern for Japan after WWII, since the Koreans and the Chinese didn't take too kindly to being raped and murdered by the Japanese during the war).

So I'd argue that 1945 (the beginning of the end for Japan during the war) was the beginning of a Crisis for them, and the 1960 treaty was the end of it. By 1964 Japan felt it had recovered enough to show off for the world during the Olympics.

Originally Posted by Normal

I think I can live with this. I think by say, 1964, when the Summer Olympics were held in Tokyo Japan was in a High by then. The '64 Olympics was Japan's way of saying that it had arrived, that it had risen from the ashes of World War II. I might be inclined to say that the beginning of the High didn't occur until about 1960 or so, possibly a year or two later. I would throw out 1960 as a starting date since that's when the Second Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security Between the United States and Japan was ratified.

This treaty solidified the groundwork for the postwar relationship between the U.S. and Japan, essentially granting the U.S. permission to use Japanese land as a strategic location for its military bases in Asia in exchange for full protection from any enemies in the region (a concern for Japan after WWII, since the Koreans and the Chinese didn't take too kindly to being raped and murdered by the Japanese during the war).

So I'd argue that 1945 (the beginning of the end for Japan during the war) was the beginning of a Crisis for them, and the 1960 treaty was the end of it. By 1964 Japan felt it had recovered enough to show off for the world during the Olympics.

Normal, I completely understand your analysis and get what you're talking about. One little quip, I'd actually argue that their Crisis began when they started feeling the pinch in needing oil from fighting in China exhausting their reserves--this of course led to the deterioration of relations between Japan and the US, leading to Pearl Harbor. Then keep in mind that after Pearl Harbor for the length of WWII Japan was getting bombed constantly throughout the war (beginning with the Doolittle Raid in 1942). So in the end, we could say that their Crisis was: 1940/1941 - 1960. In a lot of ways, actually, the mid-late 2000s we were in the position Japan was in just before they started the war with us (fighting wars for resources).

My analysis is simply looking at what they're marketing to their kids and teens what that marketing tells me about the kind of children they're aiming these things towards and the kind of world they're preparing for them. From that you get this:

circa 1944: Children trying to survive a wasteland of bombings and starvation - the ultimate Artist childhood experience (see video below)

late 1950s: Children taken to the country to grow up away from the cities being rebuilt, left to just "be kids" and have "big imaginations" - this is a Prophet childhood

late 1970s - late 1990s: Fighting culture, kids fight for themselves, celebration of all things fighting (you see similar celebration of fisticuffs with Joneser and Xer culture in America in the late 1970s and the 1980s--especially teenage culture) - Nomads love their fisticuffs

late 1990s - ????: teamwork, friendship, trust, personal development and growth, fighting done by a partner stand-in - Civics working together to save the world, with a guardian spirit to protect them from harm

From that sampling I can clearly see four distinct generations and the different archetypes they represent.



~Chas'88

Originally Posted by Chas'88

Normal, I completely understand your analysis and get what you're talking about. One little quip, I'd actually argue that their Crisis began when they started feeling the pinch in needing oil from fighting in China exhausting their reserves--this of course led to the deterioration of relations between Japan and the US, leading to Pearl Harbor. Then keep in mind that after Pearl Harbor for the length of WWII Japan was getting bombed constantly throughout the war (beginning with the Doolittle Raid in 1942). So in the end, we could say that their Crisis was: 1940/1941 - 1960. In a lot of ways, actually, the mid-late 2000s we were in the position Japan was in just before they started the war with us (fighting wars for resources).

My analysis is simply looking at what they're marketing to their kids and teens what that marketing tells me about the kind of children they're aiming these things towards and the kind of world they're preparing for them. From that you get this:

circa 1944: Children trying to survive a wasteland of bombings and starvation - the ultimate Artist childhood experience (see video below)

late 1950s: Children taken to the country to grow up away from the cities being rebuilt, left to just "be kids" and have "big imaginations" - this is a Prophet childhood

late 1970s - late 1990s: Fighting culture, kids fight for themselves, celebration of all things fighting (you see similar celebration of fisticuffs with Joneser and Xer culture in America in the late 1970s and the 1980s--especially teenage culture) - Nomads love their fisticuffs

late 1990s - ????: teamwork, friendship, trust, personal development and growth, fighting done by a partner stand-in - Civics working together to save the world, with a guardian spirit to protect them from harm

From that sampling I can clearly see four distinct generations and the different archetypes they represent.



~Chas'88

I can live with 1940 or 1941 as a 4T starting date. Maybe 1941 because Japan dominated everyone it came across until they started fighting the US. So Pearl Harbor was the beginning of their decline, from which they didn't recover from until the 1960s.

My mother is Japanese, and was born in 1953. Everything about her screams Artist archetype. Of course if she were American, she'd be a Boomer but there's nothing Boomer/Prophet about her. So to me, I would have to say that the 1950s were a 4T era for Japan, and would have a very hard time being convinced otherwise.

Also, when I listen to my parents' description of Japan in the 1970s, it sounds similar to America in the 1950s - their economy was in the midst of a postwar miracle (ours was stagnant after experiencing a similar miracle during our own 1T in the 1950s and early '60s), gender roles were very rigid (they've had an Awakening since that time), and the country was in the beginning stages of its fierce economic competition with the US, which reached its peak in the 1980s with the flood of Japanese cars, electronics, and video games on American shores.

It has been said that Japan had a Rebuilding Crisis in the aftermath of WWII.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

It has been said that Japan had a Rebuilding Crisis in the aftermath of WWII.

Right. The general notion floated in this thread has been that Japan is one turning behind us, thus WWII was an Unraveling era and the post-war reconstruction was a Crisis. Only when they fully recovered can we say that they were truly in a High. Now, as me and Chas88 have discussed, this can be tweaked a little. I am comfortable with saying that the 4T for Japan may have started as early as 1940 or so, but I feel pretty confident in saying that the 1950s was a 4T for Japan. But again, by 1964 when the Olympics came to Tokyo, Japan was in a 1T.

1964 was almost fifty years ago. So Japan would be in...what?...3T now?