Wonder how Italian Americans feel about the future of Italy.

One could imagine the 4t threat of Muslims invading Italy.

Wonder how Italian Americans feel about the future of Italy.

One could imagine the 4t threat of Muslims invading Italy.

Wonder how Italian Americans feel about the future of Italy.

One could imagine the 4t threat of Muslims invading Italy.

Said threat could certainly be extended to include Spain, Portugal, and the Balkan countries. Perhaps, further down the road, the rest of Europe, as well.

Said threat could certainly be extended to include Spain, Portugal, and the Balkan countries. Perhaps, further down the road, the rest of Europe, as well.

Said threat could certainly be extended to include Spain, Portugal, and the Balkan countries. Perhaps, further down the road, the rest of Europe, as well.

This is an interesting thread, in that it points up the stark differences between Italian-American attitudes toward Italy and the attitudes of American Jews toward Israel.

As to what I think about the future of Italy - actually I don't think about the future of Italy - and can't understand why (American) Jews don't feel the corresponding way about Israel, especially since they do not have grandparents, great-grandparents etc. who were born in Israel the way Italian-Americans can cite such ancestors who were indeed born in the "old country."

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

This is an interesting thread, in that it points up the stark differences between Italian-American attitudes toward Italy and the attitudes of American Jews toward Israel.

As to what I think about the future of Italy - actually I don't think about the future of Italy - and can't understand why (American) Jews don't feel the corresponding way about Israel, especially since they do not have grandparents, great-grandparents etc. who were born in Israel the way Italian-Americans can cite such ancestors who were indeed born in the "old country."

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

This is an interesting thread, in that it points up the stark differences between Italian-American attitudes toward Italy and the attitudes of American Jews toward Israel.

As to what I think about the future of Italy - actually I don't think about the future of Italy - and can't understand why (American) Jews don't feel the corresponding way about Israel, especially since they do not have grandparents, great-grandparents etc. who were born in Israel the way Italian-Americans can cite such ancestors who were indeed born in the "old country."

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

Still though, I'm an American, not a Brit, even if three-quarters of my ancestral lines go to Britain. Not that I'd ever be in a place to deal with anything sensitive, but I wouldn't think of pulling a Jonathan Pollard and faxing anything to the British government out of ethnic loyalty.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

Still though, I'm an American, not a Brit, even if three-quarters of my ancestral lines go to Britain. Not that I'd ever be in a place to deal with anything sensitive, but I wouldn't think of pulling a Jonathan Pollard and faxing anything to the British government out of ethnic loyalty.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Truth be told, within the last two years or so I have sent some very reasoned, temperate letters to the editor of various newspapers, noting how virtually every letter in support of Israel is signed with an obvious, Jewish-sounding name, and wondering why these letter-writers don't seem to regard themselves as Americans first - or, for that matter, Americans exclusively, and nothing else. Perhaps not surprisingly, none of these letters have ever been published.

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

Still though, I'm an American, not a Brit, even if three-quarters of my ancestral lines go to Britain. Not that I'd ever be in a place to deal with anything sensitive, but I wouldn't think of pulling a Jonathan Pollard and faxing anything to the British government out of ethnic loyalty.

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls; someone (probably either Al Sharpton or Howard Dean) will throw the dreaded "dual loyalty" issue in Lieberman's face (and while Ronald Reagan may have decreed that thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican, no such ethos exists within the Democratic Party - remember that it was Walter Mondale who got out the word about Gary Hart changing his last name from Hartpence in an effort to discredit Hart).

If American Jews want to put the finishing touches on their assimilation and social acceptance in this country, they will need to tone down the "mother hen" attitude toward Israel just a little bit.

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls; someone (probably either Al Sharpton or Howard Dean) will throw the dreaded "dual loyalty" issue in Lieberman's face (and while Ronald Reagan may have decreed that thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican, no such ethos exists within the Democratic Party - remember that it was Walter Mondale who got out the word about Gary Hart changing his last name from Hartpence in an effort to discredit Hart).

If American Jews want to put the finishing touches on their assimilation and social acceptance in this country, they will need to tone down the "mother hen" attitude toward Israel just a little bit.

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls; someone (probably either Al Sharpton or Howard Dean) will throw the dreaded "dual loyalty" issue in Lieberman's face (and while Ronald Reagan may have decreed that thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican, no such ethos exists within the Democratic Party - remember that it was Walter Mondale who got out the word about Gary Hart changing his last name from Hartpence in an effort to discredit Hart).

If American Jews want to put the finishing touches on their assimilation and social acceptance in this country, they will need to tone down the "mother hen" attitude toward Israel just a little bit.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls.

And whoever does could bring Lieberman down, but is going to make himself very vulnerable.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls.

And whoever does could bring Lieberman down, but is going to make himself very vulnerable.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls.

And whoever does could bring Lieberman down, but is going to make himself very vulnerable.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

With one huge difference: I would venture to guess that most if not all of the Arab letter-writers opposing Israel's policies were actually born somewhere in the Middle East; by contrast, probably all of the Jewish letter-writers are third- or even fourth-generation Americans - not only that, their ancestors who were born abroad were born in Poland or Russia, not Palestine.

That said, my position on the troubles in the Middle East and their root causes is quite clear to everyone who has been posting here for any appreciable length of time: It is the Arabs' refusal to accept the just verdict of World War II that is exclusively responsible for every bit of the violence that has occurred there since 1948. If Germans were bombing school buses filled with Polish children in Wroclaw in a bid to get Silesia back from Poland, it would be absolutely no different from the school-bus bombings of Jewish children that have actually taken place in Israel.

In short, the Arab policy of peace-treaty revisionism is the problem - nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

With one huge difference: I would venture to guess that most if not all of the Arab letter-writers opposing Israel's policies were actually born somewhere in the Middle East; by contrast, probably all of the Jewish letter-writers are third- or even fourth-generation Americans - not only that, their ancestors who were born abroad were born in Poland or Russia, not Palestine.

That said, my position on the troubles in the Middle East and their root causes is quite clear to everyone who has been posting here for any appreciable length of time: It is the Arabs' refusal to accept the just verdict of World War II that is exclusively responsible for every bit of the violence that has occurred there since 1948. If Germans were bombing school buses filled with Polish children in Wroclaw in a bid to get Silesia back from Poland, it would be absolutely no different from the school-bus bombings of Jewish children that have actually taken place in Israel.

In short, the Arab policy of peace-treaty revisionism is the problem - nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

Originally Posted by John Taber 1972

And in some places, nearly every letter in support of the Arabs or Palestinians is signed with an Arab name. (Not that they don't make some good points as well.)

With one huge difference: I would venture to guess that most if not all of the Arab letter-writers opposing Israel's policies were actually born somewhere in the Middle East; by contrast, probably all of the Jewish letter-writers are third- or even fourth-generation Americans - not only that, their ancestors who were born abroad were born in Poland or Russia, not Palestine.

That said, my position on the troubles in the Middle East and their root causes is quite clear to everyone who has been posting here for any appreciable length of time: It is the Arabs' refusal to accept the just verdict of World War II that is exclusively responsible for every bit of the violence that has occurred there since 1948. If Germans were bombing school buses filled with Polish children in Wroclaw in a bid to get Silesia back from Poland, it would be absolutely no different from the school-bus bombings of Jewish children that have actually taken place in Israel.

In short, the Arab policy of peace-treaty revisionism is the problem - nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sooner or later an ugly tone is going to take hold in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004, especially if Joe Lieberman starts doing well in the polls; someone (probably either Al Sharpton or Howard Dean) will throw the dreaded "dual loyalty" issue in Lieberman's face (and while Ronald Reagan may have decreed that thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican, no such ethos exists within the Democratic Party - remember that it was Walter Mondale who got out the word about Gary Hart changing his last name from Hartpence in an effort to discredit Hart).

If American Jews want to put the finishing touches on their assimilation and social acceptance in this country, they will need to tone down the "mother hen" attitude toward Israel just a little bit.

A couple of points about your posts.

1. Howard Dean is married to a Jew, so I doubt that he would do the "dual loyalty" thing.

2. A number of American Jews have emigrated to Israel, so many other American Jews have kin (siblings, cousins) over there.

3. Italy, Germany, England, etc... are not under attack by all it's neighbors. Israel is. If the Arab countries would recognize Israel, trade with Israel, and stop suicide bombings, Israel would be out of the occupied territories and American Jews would not be so concerned.

4. Israel contains many Jewish holy sites (actually, it also contains many Christian sites, too, FWIW). Many of these sites were barred from Jews when held by the Arabs.

Anyway, some things to chew on here.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

This is an interesting thread, in that it points up the stark differences between Italian-American attitudes toward Italy and the attitudes of American Jews toward Israel.

As to what I think about the future of Italy - actually I don't think about the future of Italy - and can't understand why (American) Jews don't feel the corresponding way about Israel, especially since they do not have grandparents, great-grandparents etc. who were born in Israel the way Italian-Americans can cite such ancestors who were indeed born in the "old country."

Easy!

Is the existence of Italy threatened? Were there attempts to exterminate every Italian on the face of the earth in the past 60 years? Are there fanatical countries that regularly support groups that seek the destruction of Italy actively seeking to build nuclear and biological weapons?

You don't think of Italy because it is safe. Israel is not. It is a country of a few million Jews surrounded by countries of about 500 million Muslims, most of which support the annihilation of Israel.

And beyond that, many of the Muslims support killing Jews wherever they are in the world. That's not an indirect threat, it's a direct one, and they claim passages in the Koran as their justification. There have been terrorist acts in the past where the terrorists specifically requested identification of Jewish names of passengers, so they could be targeted. Jews in France are being attacked IN FRANCE by the same zealots.

---

So I'll throw this question back to you: If Italy was under a possible nuclear threat, Italians were singled out in terrorist attacks, people threatened Italians and Italian churches in countries throughout the world, Italian names were singled out in terrorist attacks, and 60 years ago there had been a concerted effort to kill every Italian in the world...

THEN

Wouldn't you be concerned for the safety of a free, democratic Italy where Italians could worship and live and prosper?




***

Always try to look from the other side.

I, myself, support Israel because it is a free democracy, much as I support Taiwan. We cannot permit the light of free democracy to fade in any corner of the world.

The problem with the UN and with popular opinion is that they only see "democracy". Drop the word "free" (as in having protected rights), and you're left with mob rule. The Algerian people tried to elect a theocracy. Without a Bill of Rights in place to prevent such a system to come into being, they have nullified a freely elected (and stupid) government. Now they're in a quagmire.

I hope Iraq institutes a strong Bill of Rights, so that they, too, can become a free democracy, and not a theocracy like so much of the Muslim world.

Originally Posted by AAA1969

I hope Iraq institutes a strong Bill of Rights, so that they, too, can become a free democracy, and not a theocracy like so much of the Muslim world.

A Bill of Rights only works if it has some kind of roots in the beliefs and assumptions of the population. If they truly want an Islamic theocracy, they'll eventually have one.

Fortunately, Iraq's culture and history are very different than Algeria's.