Originally Posted by A.LOS79

Of all the other European nations distancing themselves

from America, Italy is still loyal to Pres.Bush and USA.

Silvio Berlusconi is a strong supporter of Bush and an ally

on the war on terror. Italy is in the third turning, yes

they have culture wars going on their right now. Italy is

more Red Zone than some of the other European countries

like Sweden, Germany, Britain and Holland whom are much more

Blue Zone in the culture wars.

Berlusconi is a media magnate who bought his way into office (kind of like Bush, Bloomberg, etc.).
It's unsurprisng that he would go where the money is.

Dumb GIs Mistake Paisans for Jihadists....

U.S. Forces Fire at Freed Reporter in Iraq - Paper

31 minutes ago

ROME (Reuters) - U.S. forces fired at a car carrying Italian reporter Giuliana Sgrena shortly after her liberation, wounding some of the passengers, the journalist's newspaper said on Friday.

"She was going in a car to the airport with three people from the Italian security forces. U.S. forces opened fire on the car. She is fine but there are wounded," Il Manifesto's editorial director Francesco Paterno told Reuters.

Italian news agency ANSA said Sgrena had been wounded in the shoulder and added that one of the Italian secret service agents had been killed. Another news agency, AGI, said Sgrena was being treated in a Baghdad hospital.

Originally Posted by A.LOS79

Of all the other European nations distancing themselves

from America, Italy is still loyal to Pres.Bush and USA.

Silvio Berlusconi is a strong supporter of Bush and an ally

on the war on terror. Italy is in the third turning, yes

they have culture wars going on their right now. Italy is

more Red Zone than some of the other European countries

like Sweden, Germany, Britain and Holland whom are much more

Blue Zone in the culture wars.

It is diffcult in Europe to determine which countries are more awakening or more anti-awakening in their political outlook. In Europe many even on the anti-awakening side are suspcious of United States. Anti-American feeling in Italian is probably as strong as it is in Germany and even France. Britain by far is the least anti-american nation in Europe.

Originally Posted by Tristan

In Europe many even on the anti-awakening side are suspcious of United States. Anti-American feeling in Italy is probably as strong as it is in Germany and even France.

Why do you think I list the question of America's continued existence as a major issue of the coming 4T, which will have to be resolved, one way or the other, most likely violently?

Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus

Why do you think I list the question of America's continued existence as a major issue of the coming 4T, which will have to be resolved, one way or the other, most likely violently?

A lot of Europeans do not hate America, however they are quite resentful of her immense power and I suspect they feel despair at their own 'puniness' in comparison to the United States. Western Europe as a whole has only a fraction of US military power; and the economic preformance of Western Europe compared to the USA has not been good since around 1980.

Originally Posted by Tristan

Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus

Why do you think I list the question of America's continued existence as a major issue of the coming 4T, which will have to be resolved, one way or the other, most likely violently?

A lot of Europeans do not hate America, however they are quite resentful of her immense power and I suspect they feel despair at their own 'puniness' in comparison to the United States. Western Europe as a whole has only a fraction of US military power; and the economic preformance of Western Europe compared to the USA has not been good since around 1980.

Going back to my 'end of the Assyrian Empire' analogy, I have at times seen Europe as being like Babylonia to our Assyria (the core of our civilization, which now feels oppressed by the parvenu military colossus, who's uprising against that colossus spelled the beginning of the end for said colussus).

Uh Oh

Looks like now that since the US dummies almost killed the journalist, and she is, understandably, mad about it, she too will be subject to character assasination.

Originally Posted by Associated Press

ROME Mar 6, 2005 ? Left-wing journalist Giuliana Sgrena claimed American soldiers gave no warning before they opened fire and said Sunday she could not rule out that U.S. forces intentionally shot at the car carrying her to the Baghdad airport, wounding her and killing the Italian agent who had just won her freedom after a month in captivity.

An Italian Cabinet member urged Sgrena, who writes for a communist newspaper that routinely opposes U.S. policy in Iraq, to be cautious in her accounts and said the shooting would not affect Italy's support for the Bush administration.

The White House called the shooting a "horrific accident" and restated its promise to investigate fully.

Sgrena's editor at the daily Il Manifesto, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300-400 rounds were fired at the car. Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said only one other agent was hurt.

Without backing up the claim, Sgrena said she believed it was possible she was targeted because the United States objected to methods used to secure her release.

"The fact that the Americans don't want negotiations to free the hostages is known," the 56-year-old journalist told Sky TG24 television by telephone, her voice hoarse and shaky. "The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostage, everybody knows that. So I don't see why I should rule out that I could have been the target."

Sgrena said she knew nothing about a ransom payment, and no details have emerged about how authorities won her release. An Italian Cabinet minister said money likely changed hands.

U.S. officials object to ransom payments or negotiation with kidnappers, claiming that only encourages further hostage-taking.

The shooting has fueled anti-American sentiment in a country where people have deeply opposed the war in Iraq, but it did not provoke mass protests this weekend like those that have drawn tens of thousands of people into the streets.

Originally Posted by Associated Press

ROME Mar 6, 2005 ? Left-wing journalist Giuliana Sgrena claimed American soldiers gave no warning before they opened fire and said Sunday she could not rule out that U.S. forces intentionally shot at the car carrying her to the Baghdad airport, wounding her and killing the Italian agent who had just won her freedom after a month in captivity.

Political labels are even more of a joke in Italy than they are here. That aside, this is another big thing I have to apologize to my Italian friends for.

Originally Posted by JTaber 1972

Originally Posted by Associated Press

ROME Mar 6, 2005 ? Left-wing journalist Giuliana Sgrena claimed American soldiers gave no warning before they opened fire and said Sunday she could not rule out that U.S. forces intentionally shot at the car carrying her to the Baghdad airport, wounding her and killing the Italian agent who had just won her freedom after a month in captivity.

Political labels are even more of a joke in Italy than they are here. That aside, this is another big thing I have to apologize to my Italian friends for.

That was an AP story, but I digress. My Italian friends tell me that "communist" in Italy is like "liberal" in the US.

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

My Italian friends tell me that "communist" in Italy is like "liberal" in the US.

Sounds about right to me.

The Italians should just withdraw already. What are they getting out of this anyway?

Italy's Out

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

Italy's Out

Bravo!
Who's next?

Originally Posted by ABC News

Jordan's In

Bravo!
Who's next?

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

Italy's Out

When you provide a link to a place where you have to register, could you please provide the unregistered hoi polloi with a quote or so so that we know what the point is? I don't want to register for all these web sites and I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Distinguished Toastmaster

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

Italy's Out

When you provide a link to a place where you have to register, could you please provide the unregistered hoi polloi with a quote or so so that we know what the point is? I don't want to register for all these web sites and I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Thanks.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...r/11149883.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 16, 2005

Italy to start pulling out of Iraq

ASSOCIATED PRESS

ROME - Italy's prime minister announced plans Tuesday to start reducing his country's 3,000-strong contingent in Iraq in September, putting a fresh crack in President Bush's crumbling coalition. Bulgaria also called for a partial withdrawal.

The moves come on top of the withdrawal of more than a dozen countries over the past year and could complicate efforts to keep the peace while Iraq's new government builds up police and military units capable of taking over from foreign forces.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, who confirmed he would seek re-election next year, alluded to rising public discontent and said he had spoken with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, another strong Washington ally. "We need to construct a precise exit strategy, also because our publics' opinions expect this communication and we agree to talk about it soon."

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by ABC News

Jordan's In

Bravo!
Who's next?

Oh? Are you of Jordanian descent Marc?
After all, that's what Signore Petrone and my just-as-woppish self were toasting.

Bravo!
That would be Nastro Azzurro, I presume?

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by ABC News

Jordan's In

Bravo!
Who's next?

Oh? Are you of Jordanian descent Marc?
After all, that's what Signore Petrone and my just-as-woppish self were toasting.

Salut!

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

Originally Posted by Distinguished Toastmaster

Originally Posted by Blue Stater

Italy's Out

When you provide a link to a place where you have to register, could you please provide the unregistered hoi polloi with a quote or so so that we know what the point is? I don't want to register for all these web sites and I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Thanks.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...r/11149883.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 16, 2005

Italy to start pulling out of Iraq

ASSOCIATED PRESS

ROME - Italy's prime minister announced plans Tuesday to start reducing his country's 3,000-strong contingent in Iraq in September, putting a fresh crack in President Bush's crumbling coalition. Bulgaria also called for a partial withdrawal.

The moves come on top of the withdrawal of more than a dozen countries over the past year and could complicate efforts to keep the peace while Iraq's new government builds up police and military units capable of taking over from foreign forces.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, who confirmed he would seek re-election next year, alluded to rising public discontent and said he had spoken with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, another strong Washington ally. "We need to construct a precise exit strategy, also because our publics' opinions expect this communication and we agree to talk about it soon."

Thanks.

I could imagine Italy secretly outdoing France, England and Germany just by

declaring the European Union a second Roman Empire that puts Italy at the

helm of not only the integration process by the 4T but gains econmoic

control of Europe. Rome would be the capital of Europe.

The first agenda of the Greater Italia would be to justify peace in the Middle

East with a new deal for Isreal to survive among Muslim nations.

This would gratly reduce US power in Europe and the Middle East.

As the showdown over independence for Kosovo looms - with the United States cluelessly supporting same - the panic in Italy begins to percolate:

About 70% of Albania's roughly 3 1/3 million people are Muslims, 20% are Eastern Orthodox Christians, and 10% are Roman Catholics (70 years ago these ratios were closer to 55-30-15; during the Communist rule of Enver Hoxha, all religion was banned in theory, but there was blatant favoritism in practice, with the regime cracking down on Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular far more harshly than it suppressed Islam, leading Christians to be over-represented among the estimated 1 million Albanians who fled the country during Hoxha's rule). Albania's Muslim majority is fairly moderate, at least in relative terms, and in the post-communist era they have made at least some effort to promote religious harmony in the country (although horrific atrocities have occurred, including the invasion of a convent and the mass rape of its nuns some years back). The 2 million Kosovars, however, are a different story, not only being all but 100% Muslim, but also radical jihadists to boot (the terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army openly accepted help from al Qaeda, and at least four of the "Fort Dix Six" were ethnically Albanian but not Albanian nationals).

If Kosovo does become independent, it won't remain such for long, because a stand-alone Kosovar state would be totally unviable; hence an Anschluss by Albania (a particularly apt metaphor, as virtually all ethnic Albanian Muslims enthusiastically collaborated with the Nazis during World War II) is certain to take place - and this would not only give the country as a whole a larger Muslim majority, but a more radical one as well, leading to a flood of Christian "boat people" streaming across the Adriatic to Puglia, which is closer to Albania than Florida is to Cuba.

Italy has already taken in about half a million Albanian refugees since 1945, and large Albanian communities exist in just about all the major cities of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily. While it's anybody's guess what the leaders in Rome will say for public consumption, the Italians can't help but regard the seemingly imminent scenario as cause for concern, if not alarm.

Originally Posted by Anthony '58 II

If Kosovo does become independent, it won't remain such for long, because a stand-alone Kosovar state would be totally unviable;

Which I think is the idea, no? The EU would quickly absorb the non-state state, making it another name on a list that the EU (Germany) gets to represent in international affairs.

hence an Anschluss by Albania (a particularly apt metaphor, as virtually all ethnic Albanian Muslims enthusiastically collaborated with the Nazis during World War II)

Didn't "our" people also enthusiastically collaborate with the Nazis, Anthony?

Italy has already taken in about half a million Albanian refugees since 1945, and large Albanian communities exist in just about all the major cities of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily. While it's anybody's guess what the leaders in Rome will say for public consumption, the Italians can't help but regard the seemingly imminent scenario as cause for concern, if not alarm.

I have to say that the leaders in Rome -- who seem to be the same circle of men born in the 1930s -- Berlusconi, Prodi, et cetera -- are preoccupied with forming a new coalition government.

But here's a question, why is it the Ahtisaari Plan and not the Berlusconi Plan? Italy seems to have lost all status as a regional power, yet, as you pointed out, these decisions will have an immediate effect on its neighborhood.

JoatSimeon on the Stirling lists posted -

"- there's nothing wrong with Italians as such; there were always individuals and some elite units or ones with particularly good officers which did well.

They showed to particular advantage in situations which called for brauvera feats of individual daring -- the human-torpedo attacks on the British fleet in Alexandria during WWII, for example. For that matter, an Italian taken prisoner by the jihadis in Iraq a while ago died sneering at his captors and saying: "I will show you how an Italian dies!"

The problem was with the institutional culture of the post-unification Italian military, starting with the inclination of the Piedmontese-dominated officer corps to regard anyone from the rest of Italy, and particularly the south, as backward and inferior "African" types who could only be kept from running away and slacking by firing squads and savage punishments.

Naturally, the recruits tended to reciprocate. "Run, my son! Run, the fatherland is coming!" as one Sicilian mother said to her child around 1900, when the military came around to round up the conscripts.

My father -- who was a professional officer from 1939-1964 -- liked to say: "There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers."

And the problems went on from there; there was hardly a possible problem which the Italian army of the time didn't have, from inadequate funding to bad staff work, and none of them improved from the disasters of Adowa to the disasters of Caporetto and on to the disasters of Libya.

As a result the Italian armed forces as a whole had a sorry record of brutal indifference by the high command to the welfare of the troops, impassible social gulfs between officers and men, sloth, indifference and incompetence at all levels, lousy motivation, and really, really bad performance.

Add in that in WWII virtually nobody in Italy but Mussolini wanted to be in the war or thought it would turn out well, and the Italian lack of the civic culture of obedience so characteristic of Germans. Even Mussolini didn't really intend to fight; he just wanted to pick up juicy bits of loot falling from Hitler's table, after the Germans had knocked the stuffing out of the French and British.

Germans tended to fight well even when they thought the war was lost and Hitler a lunatic leading the country to destruction, and the German military was always technically very competent, with good man-management and an institutional culture which produced consistently excellent results.

(As the saying goes, Germans are superb at doing things and execrably bad at deciding what's worth doing in the first place.)

In essence, Italians were too civilized and rational(*) to fight well in wars they didn't much care about or actively opposed, and the structure of the Italian military and the way it treated them gave them absolutely no reason to reconsider once they'd been conscripted.

Given a cause they valued and officers who didn't have their heads rammed so far up their fundaments that they were at close quarters with their molars they'd do fine.

Italian weapons tended to be crummy, but no more so than those of -- for example -- the Japanese Army. The difference was that the Japanese used theirs with fanatical dedication.

(*) unlike, say, the Spaniards, who during the same period were given to outbursts of berserk thanatophilia. Only Spain before 1960 could produce "Down with Reason! Long live death!" as a serious battle cry, and really mean it."

Doesn't this sound as if southern Italy were on a different timeline?

I think that they just didn't want to die for a fascist dictator.
After all, they'd seen his bluss and blunder for over 20 years.
And when a stone age Ethiopia gives you all that you can ahndle.
Yeah, maybe they were not really 4T.