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Thread: The Greatest Cycle-Rebirth Of A Civilization - Page 16







Post#376 at 02-13-2013 02:14 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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02-13-2013, 02:14 PM #376
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What would lie on the other side of a transitional period? According to Sorokin, either another super-system (most like ideational) or else a mixed eclectic period.







Post#377 at 02-13-2013 02:27 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Of course, a mixed transitional period fits with the observation that we seem to be in a sort of interregnum.
Last edited by TimWalker; 02-13-2013 at 02:48 PM.







Post#378 at 02-13-2013 02:49 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Sorokin's views about art. My view is that the 20th was the century of pop culture, and it wasn't all bad.
Last edited by TimWalker; 02-13-2013 at 02:52 PM.







Post#379 at 02-13-2013 11:20 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Christian Ideational remnant. Scrolldown







Post#380 at 02-13-2013 11:32 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Sorokin mentioned that a society might not make a complete transition to another susper system, resulting in a less pure type.
Last edited by TimWalker; 02-13-2013 at 11:59 PM.







Post#381 at 02-14-2013 02:57 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Sorokin mentioned that a society might not make a complete transition to another susper system, resulting in a less pure type.
That seems to be our fate.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#382 at 02-14-2013 02:21 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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The New Age movement described as Ideational.







Post#383 at 02-14-2013 02:23 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Some of you may remember that the core Cultural Creatives have been described as an Idealistic group.







Post#384 at 02-14-2013 02:31 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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??????

The speculations I have read indicated that society will either go Ideational, or- less likely- Idealistic. Either/or; not both at the same time.







Post#385 at 02-14-2013 02:34 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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In terms of Sorokin's paradigm, China has been said to have two different currents, co-existing side by side: Taoist Idealtional current; and a mixed Confucianist current.







Post#386 at 02-14-2013 02:55 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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??????

Perhaps having several different spiritual currents is consistent with this interregnum, if we think of it as a meandering in between. Or perhaps this is the "500" counterpart of the Civil War Anomaly-we do seem to be off schedule in terms of the phase theories.
Last edited by TimWalker; 02-14-2013 at 02:59 PM.







Post#387 at 02-14-2013 03:02 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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???????

On the other hand, perhaps being Post-Classic eases some the strictures of civilizational phase theories.







Post#388 at 02-14-2013 03:06 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Question-if society is both versatile and Post-Classic, does that permit a new efflorescence? I commented that the 20th was the century of pop culture-perhaps that won't be the last Post-Classic efflorescence.







Post#389 at 02-14-2013 04:29 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Probably not the last. We see some signs of a better pop music happening in the 2010s. Perhaps that could open up some doors. The new age and cultural creative fields are creating art forms that may be considered classic later, such as ambient music. But they did not emerge from the classical academy. Neither did modern art, ever since the impressionists left the academy and went outside, literally. Nowadays, universities have little to offer in the way of inspiration to artists and musicians. They are relics from the Renaissance 500-year cycle, and everything valuable is happening outside them. But what happens outside may become the new classic and academic, in time. We already speak of "classic rock" for example, and the notables in that field have as much space devoted to them in almanacs as the classical composers do.

So far we have not gone ideational or sensate. The Greco-Roman world started out as a balanced society, but trending strongly sensate from the time of the first philosophers onward, and the sensate trend dominated two entire cycles, from the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD. It was a different kind of sensate than our time; not as empirical, but mainly intuitive-- meaning discovery of principles rather than applying them to technology. The ideational view then dominated the medieval world, which also lasted two whole cycles, even though the sensate view was advancing (but not yet dominant) after the 12th century. Our post-renaissance time has taken sensate to new extremes, and applied them much more throughly to manipulating and discovering the world.

This current 500-year cycle beginning with the post-impressionists has added a counter-trend to the dominant sensate worldview, and the new age/cultural creatives have magnified this (analogous to Christian culture and other cults during the Roman Empire); but younger American generations, such as the people here on this site, have largely reverted to sensate culture. People like Brian insist on two separate cultures. So it could end up as much more of a hybrid culture than we have experienced before. We live in a time where there are so many cultures, from all around the world, all of them available to us at once, that it may be hard for one world view to predominate. We may instead be developing a global synthesis. I think the holistic and hermetic fields offer the greatest possibilities to develop this new synthesis, together with sensate science itself becoming more mystical and philosophical in its implications, even as it continues to follow its method; and in the case of string theory, even its methods are becoming more philosophical. So this era could see the first culture of integration of the sensate and ideational, which is not merely a transition but the dominant trend for 500 years or more.

I laid out stages similar to Sorokin's in this chapter of my book, which I developed from the 1970s and published in 1997:

http://philosopherswheel.com/cosmicc...ilization.html

In the past, Sorokin's "integral" stages have occured with Uranus near the "horizon" of the great cycle; and I suspected we were moving toward ideational; toward the "solstice." He also mentioned the "mixed" culture during the transition from Greco-Roman to Medieval, and that is also possibly happening now.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 02-14-2013 at 04:48 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#390 at 02-14-2013 11:08 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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It has occurred to me that, if there are Ideational and Idealistic movements that are both new and vital, perhaps we will see a society better described as an amalgam. These movements would both be highly spiritual, but distinct, because the Idealtional and Idealistic world views are somewhat different. Both would co-exist for a time with the cynical-Sensate group, and the old Christian Ideational remnant. How exactly that would play out I don't know-Sorokin's predictions described the Sensate system being replaced by one of the other super systems.







Post#391 at 02-14-2013 11:13 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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One thing we should consider are things quietly going on in the background (we be 4T). For example, a few years ago I posted about a yound woman who went on a vision quest-someone too young to be a Boomer or even on the Prophet/Nomad cusp.







Post#392 at 02-14-2013 11:18 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Perhaps the Age of Aquarius will be unique because it includes both the Ideational and the Idealistic. As well as a Creative ethos.
Last edited by TimWalker; 02-14-2013 at 11:22 PM.







Post#393 at 02-14-2013 11:26 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Interesting comments about the Greco-Roman Sensate system being somewhat different in tone. Perhaps something with the same tone will reappear...way off in the future.







Post#394 at 02-14-2013 11:41 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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BTW, I understood that the Transitional era was "mixed" because the disintegrating Sensate system overlapped in time with the growing Ideational epoch.







Post#395 at 02-18-2013 02:11 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Decline and self criticism.







Post#396 at 02-18-2013 02:15 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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The Fourth Civilization-quite speculative content.







Post#397 at 02-18-2013 02:17 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Sorokin elaborated.







Post#398 at 02-18-2013 03:07 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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comparative history

Hittites again. The "Middle Kingdom", unforetunately, seems to be the period most akin to our present-our candle is wavering too. It occurred to me that this may be consistent with the sensation of a Mega-Unraveling. If I recall correctly, the Grey Badger placed the start of the mega-unraveling in the '70s, which included Malaise. The Middle Kingdom period lasted about a century-if you extrapolate, our Mega-Unraveling would last until the beginning of the next 3T.







Post#399 at 02-18-2013 03:16 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Innovation

Scroll down to the next phase. What was the killer app of a Bronze Age economy? In one word...iron. But there seems to be no particular reason to believe that we will as foretunate.







Post#400 at 02-18-2013 03:27 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Review. Melko wrote about the degree of integration of a civilization. I suspect that we are at a point where society is loosely integrated. I believe that Western Chrisidom became loosely integrated during the transitional period between the Middle Ages and Early Modern period.
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