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Thread: The Greatest Cycle-Rebirth Of A Civilization - Page 19







Post#451 at 06-11-2013 01:05 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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06-11-2013, 01:05 AM #451
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Maybe the title of this thread should be "The Next Age." I agree with the Grey Badger, the next age-when it finally gels-will likely be unique. There are diverse hints of impending strangeness.







Post#452 at 06-21-2013 02:45 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Book-copyright 2012. Future Perfect The Case For Progress In A Networked Age by Steven Johnson. I have been puzzled concerning the effects of the recent Information Revolution. Could some of these effects be a recapitulation of the past? The author is interested in "peer networks." The concluding chapter is labeled The Peer Society: "Many of the most promising peer networks today utilize advanced technology, but from a certain angle, they can be seen as a return to a much older tradition. The social architectures of the paleolithic era-the human mind's formative years-were much closer to peer networks than they were to states or corporations. As E. O. Wilson writes in The Social Conquest of Earth, Hunter-gatherer bands and small agricultural villages are by and large egalitarian. Leadership status is granted individuals on the basis of intelligence and bravery...."
Last edited by TimWalker; 06-21-2013 at 02:49 PM.







Post#453 at 06-24-2013 12:45 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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06-24-2013, 12:45 PM #453
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Johnson is interested in something called liquid democracy.
Last edited by TimWalker; 06-27-2013 at 01:42 AM.







Post#454 at 06-27-2013 01:45 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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06-27-2013, 01:45 AM #454
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LiquidFeedback software.







Post#455 at 06-28-2013 03:37 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Scroll down-to Grey Badger's comments regarding post-modernism.
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-04-2013 at 03:30 PM.







Post#456 at 06-28-2013 05:40 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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************************************************** **********************
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-04-2013 at 04:12 PM.







Post#457 at 07-18-2013 02:42 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Those people who discount the movements of the 1960s or "boomer ideas" and such, should pay special attention to the cautionary tale presented on PBS tonight about the Mayans. "Civilizations can fail," they said. In the Mayan case, it was two factors that did them in in the 9th century: war, and environmental catastrophe. So what are the two chief political movements that came out of the 60s, and are its legacy? The peace movement and the environmental movement. The 60s movements, you could conclude, must succeed in order for our civilization to survive!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#458 at 07-19-2013 02:22 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Last edited by TimWalker; 07-19-2013 at 12:25 PM.







Post#459 at 07-24-2013 01:00 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Scroll down. Comparison between Hellenistic period and modern culture. One common feature is a post-modern disillusionment with all institutions and political processes. And the perception that a brilliant era is past. One difference is notable in terms of Sorokin's cycle-the Greeks were going from the Ideal to the Real, while we have already gone through the secular thing (which seems to be in a cynical phase).
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-24-2013 at 02:25 AM.







Post#460 at 07-24-2013 02:28 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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We are fortunate that the 20th was the century of pop culture; consider cultural exhaustion as the alternative, as a brilliant period had run its course.
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-24-2013 at 02:33 AM.







Post#461 at 07-26-2013 09:29 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Not really oddly. The sense that we're in the end of an age actually predates TV by several decades, and hasn't ceased. An era ended around WWI, and we've spent over a century trying to create the coming era, with a detour that looked solid and sound (the American Century) but is bidding fair not to last. Popular mass media sense these things and package them for consumption. Just as they do our fears of the parasitic elites (vampires), mindless hungry masses (zombies) and young men in gangs (werewolves).
So our Post-Classic chronology already includes two different periods. First, the American Century, now fading. Second, the Post-Modern present, which bears similarities to the Hellenistic Age.
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-27-2013 at 01:28 PM.







Post#462 at 07-30-2013 12:29 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Okay, so what comes after Post-Modernism? Could we have a multi-part Interregnum?
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-30-2013 at 12:36 PM.







Post#463 at 07-30-2013 12:48 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Okay, so what comes after Post-Modernism? Could we have a multi-part Interregnum?
We did last time. It was called The Dark Ages, The High Middle Ages, and The Late Middle Ages.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#464 at 07-30-2013 01:41 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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I have imagined the next distinct, well defined Age being defined by high tech. By some major technological revolution. Or else things go very wrong, and we end up with a post-toasty scenario. (I have long read science fiction, as well as speculations by scientists). The catch is that some scenarios would have no historical precedents, and therefore be very speculative.
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-30-2013 at 02:46 PM.







Post#465 at 07-30-2013 04:48 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
I have imagined the next distinct, well defined Age being defined by high tech. By some major technological revolution. Or else things go very wrong, and we end up with a post-toasty scenario. (I have long read science fiction, as well as speculations by scientists). The catch is that some scenarios would have no historical precedents, and therefore be very speculative.
I think we've already had the high tech revolution. That is today's age, not a new age.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#466 at 07-31-2013 03:32 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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By high tech I was thinking of massive space industrialization, or nanotechnology, or a Singularity, or programmable matter, anti-matter, Transhumanism, etc. The recent Information Revolution is comparatively low tech, and a minor thing.







Post#467 at 07-31-2013 03:50 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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The first century or so of the Hellenistic Age was considered a fairly vigorous period for the Greeks. Hopefully the 21st century will experience the same.







Post#468 at 07-31-2013 10:26 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
The first century or so of the Hellenistic Age was considered a fairly vigorous period for the Greeks. Hopefully the 21st century will experience the same.
I consider the Hellenistic Age to have been a mega-3T for Greece, just from the flavor of the period and a look at the art from the beginning to the end of it.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#469 at 07-31-2013 11:36 AM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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And there may be another 3T parallel-early 3T is less unraveled than late 3T.







Post#470 at 07-31-2013 01:24 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
I consider the Hellenistic Age to have been a mega-3T for Greece, just from the flavor of the period and a look at the art from the beginning to the end of it.
In the cycle of civilization as I see it, a "3T" equivalent (or at least the third part of that 493-year cycle, if divided into 4 parts) would have begun at the death of Alexander the Great, which was the beginning of the Hellenistic Age. A new such civilization cycle would have begun in the era of the late Roman Republic and the transition to Empire in the first century BC. But this new cycle was akin to our own times (which began circa 1892), and was still "Hellenistic" in the larger sense all the way through to its end at the Fall of Rome.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#471 at 07-31-2013 01:31 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
In the cycle of civilization as I see it, a "3T" equivalent (or at least the third part of that 493-year cycle, if divided into 4 parts) would have begun at the death of Alexander the Great, which was the beginning of the Hellenistic Age. A new such civilization cycle would have begun in the era of the late Roman Republic and the transition to Empire in the first century BC. But this new cycle was akin to our own times (which began circa 1892), and was still "Hellenistic" in the larger sense all the way through to its end at the Fall of Rome.
In the sense that when a smaller river flows into a larger one, the larger one is still the smaller one? "Hellenistic" is a subset of "Classical" or "Graeco-Roman" civilization, a phase of its existence, which includes several phases. Starting with the Golden Age of Athens, moving through the Hellenistic period, which was Alexander through the conquest of Greece by Rome, through Republican Era Rome (and that mega-4T, the Dying Republic Saeculum) and Imperial Rome up until the 3rd century crisis.

After that, you're in what is called Late Antiquity, which bears a lot less resemblance to its Classical predecessor than to it successor, Byzantium. BTW - for a quick visual on the subject, check out any art history text, if any still remain in this digital age.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#472 at 07-31-2013 02:17 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Hopefully this mega-3T won't be culturally barren. I hope that there will be at least a modest amount of creativity, at least during the next 2T.
Last edited by TimWalker; 07-31-2013 at 02:37 PM.







Post#473 at 07-31-2013 02:41 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
Hopefully this mega-3T won't be culturally barren. I hope that there will be at least a modest amount of creativity, at least during the next 2T.
We aren't in a mega-3T.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#474 at 07-31-2013 02:48 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
In the sense that when a smaller river flows into a larger one, the larger one is still the smaller one?
Some historians call the entire period from the Death of Alexander to the Fall of Rome "Hellenistic," since Rome was influenced by Greece a lot; but when properly applied only to Greece, then it extended only to the conquest by Rome.
"Hellenistic" is a subset of "Classical" or "Graeco-Roman" civilization, a phase of its existence, which includes several phases. Starting with the Golden Age of Athens, moving through the Hellenistic period, which was Alexander through the conquest of Greece by Rome, through Republican Era Rome (and that mega-4T, the Dying Republic Saeculum) and Imperial Rome up until the 3rd century crisis.

After that, you're in what is called Late Antiquity, which bears a lot less resemblance to its Classical predecessor than to it successor, Byzantium. BTW - for a quick visual on the subject, check out any art history text, if any still remain in this digital age.
Yes that's right. I still think of late Antiquity as Antiquity, not Byzantium, and the arts support that idea, but certainly it was a period which was leading into the next one. Such can be said also of the conquest of Greece by Rome and the Gracchian Revolution period, in the late Roman Republic. The first "modern times" from the Revolution to the pre-world war era is also such a period, in my estimation.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 07-31-2013 at 02:50 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#475 at 07-31-2013 05:34 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
We aren't in a mega-3T.
I know. It has to be a mega-Awakening, because otherwise the window of opportunity for the Age of Aquarius has come and gone until the middle of the century, and that would not only be painful to contemplate, but - what? I know you are very deeply emotionally invested in that idea. Is it on religious grounds?
Wishful thinking? Predicted by astrology?

Many of us others were just as deeply invested in the shiny high-tech Star Trek future, with spaceliners zipping between colonies, household energy too cheap to meter, and robots doing all the work. And have dealt with the massive disappointment of our dreams not coming true,for all our efforts to make it so. And, sadder but wiser, have set to trying to deal (some of us in old age!) with the future we're getting. So while I respect your assertion, I'm afraid you're in for more sadness, which one hopes does not spill over into bitterness.

Your friend,

The Grey Badger.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
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