Originally Posted by TimWalker

If you check out the Previews (see above link) Blaha has some interesting comments regarding the aftermath of 1914. Blaha said that Western civ should have experienced a Rout after 1914-but technological change seems to have allowed the civilization to prosper instead of deteriorate. Also, a similar effect seems to have allowed Japan to recuperate from WWII.

I think it was a rout, and it never recovered its dominant position. It is now just one center of power among many, in the world civilization, not a western one. And yes I think international interactions have already been part of our current renaissance.

Regarding the 20th century one has to be very clear about the meaning of "Rout." In the sense of the European empires disappearing and the fading dominance of the globe, one might think of that as a rout. However, one should consider what happened in Europe itself after WWII. Did European countries rebuild after the war? Enjoy prosperity or cultural vibrancy? Did the Vandals sack Paris or London or Berlin?

Comment that Western civ so extended and diffuse as to lack a real identity.

Could Western Civilization have run its course? And its identity faded away-while leaving its component countries intact? We do seem to be in a sort of limbo. Most importantly, what comes next?

Blaha suggested that with human life extension that the classic civilizational stages may be extended, such as 800 years for Time of Troubles, and 800 years for Universal Empire.

Actually, considering Blaha's speculations, I would expect that there could be qualitative changes, not just quantitative changes. Perhaps there are civilizational stages that have yet to be experienced. New technology might have thresh holds with novel social impacts.

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Originally Posted by TimWalker

Could Western Civilization have run its course? And its identity faded away-while leaving its component countries intact? We do seem to be in a sort of limbo. Most importantly, what comes next?

Global civilization comes next. It's here.

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As far as this cycle is concerned, it's pretty simple and clear. All civilizations follow it; it is the cycle of civilization in general, lasting about 500 years. Western civilization follows it most closely of all, but exactly what is or what is not "Western" is not that relevant to this cycle, because it is worldwide. The United States within this cycle was really the product and prime example of western imperialism, begun by the Renaissance explorers in the 15th century, and in the 20th century its emergence in the new cycle as a leader of the new global civilization centered in the United Nations.

Specific nations like the United States have smaller, separate cycles within the larger one. The Saeculum is the major one that is found in many nations that are advanced enough to have one. There may be more-vague ebbs and flows in less-advanced cultures and economies, as mikebert has suggested. They tend to be longer (at least 100 years), and are not based on generations and generation gaps; while more advanced ones have 80-90 year cycles based on generations.

If you want to string national saecula together in a series of 4 to make a mega-saeculum, especially in generation cycles in advanced countries, you can do that, although the correlations are questionable and the factual history is short. Myself, I would tend to start "America" with 1607 rather than 1776. Then counting from the crisis peaks, starting with the beginning date and running from Uranus-return to Uranus-return, the mega-saeculum would be:

1607-1692 mega high: establishment of colonies, very conformist cultures
1692-1776 mega awakening: the time of a great awakening and revolutionary war outbreak
1776-1861 mega unravelling: increasing break-up of the nation
1861-1944 mega-crisis: industrial collectivism, and the greatest depression and war in world history
1944-2027 mega-high, the American High and new age awakening, globalization

Originally Posted by TimWalker

If you check out the Previews (see above link) Blaha has some interesting comments regarding the aftermath of 1914. Blaha said that Western civ should have experienced a Rout after 1914-but technological change seems to have allowed the civilization to prosper instead of deteriorate. Also, a similar effect seems to have allowed Japan to recuperate from WWII.

In that case, h ow about simply referring to the period as a Time of Troubles?

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

In that case, h ow about simply referring to the period as a Time of Troubles?

Two world wars-trouble indeed.

The 500 year cycle is the major cycle globally. If we are in a long interregnum, however, an implication is that-for the time being-the saeculum is the dominant rhythm. The dominant rhythm within a period betwixt and between, not quite anything in particular. I presume that once the next Age fully gels that it will have a distinct character, within which the saeculum must find expression.

Of course, we can't discount nightmare scenarios-nuclear holocaust, for example. Leading to post-apocolypse outcomes.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

The 500 year cycle is the major cycle globally. If we are in a long interregnum, however, an implication is that-for the time being-the saeculum is the dominant rhythm. The dominant rhythm within a period betwixt and between, not quite anything in particular. I presume that once the next Age fully gels that it will have a distinct character, within which the saeculum must find expression.

Numerous times I've pointed out that literary critic Northrop Frye has pointed out the basic format for a "Super Saeculum" on a Civilization level, though I don't think he would've used that term. It's my interpretation of him more than anything. And he places us at the beginning of the end of this Civilization level cycle since the beginning of the 20th Century (approximately). An equivalent time being the final centuries of the Roman Empire. It's the "Age of Irony" when stories of immense cruelty, sarcasm, and dark foreboding wastelands are supposed to rule the day.

What Frye points to having begun this new Civilization cycle is the rise & adoption of Christianity. Which leads me to believe that when this age of irony is done Christianity might not be AS prominent as it is today. Instead it might just fall back to the position on par with Ancient Grecco-Roman myths of the Classical Civilization cycle--the cycle prior to this one.

This is where one can take the "time keeper" aspect of astrology a bit more seriously as it coincides with the whole "Age of Aquarius" idea. I once read an interesting article which dissected the "ages of astrology" and their subtle impact on Judeo-Christian belief. The Old Testament was written in the "Age of Aries" and all the villains of that book are still tied to the old social orders of the "Age of Taurus". In the garden, God curses the snake to be "cursed below all cattle"--cattle being a symbol associated with Taurus. Comments against the Ancient Egyptians (the pinnacle of the Age of Taurus civilization by this view) and other villains of the Old Testament have similar "Taurean" symbolism tied to them "they're stiff-necked" (neck is the association with the body that Taurus has), etc. Meanwhile the heroes of the Old Testament are all doing activities sacred to the Age of Aries, like David knocking Goliath out with a slingshot to the head and beheading him (the head associated with Aries), and Abel sacrifices a lamb (sheep being sacred to the Age of Aries) while Cain's offer of grain (grain and fruit being associated with Taurus) is snubbed. You see the same thing with the Ancient Greek myths, Perseus beheads Medusa, Theseus kills the Minotaur--a bull man, etc. The virtue of the Age of Aries centered around fighting, the virtue of the Age of Taurus centered around beauty, luxury, and agriculture. Come the New Testament all those Age of Aries activities become the activities of those who are the villains of the stories--John the Baptist is beheaded, etc. While the heroes of the New Testament start working with the symbols that are sacred with the Age of Pisces: Jesus washes the feet of his followers (feet are the body part that Pisces rules) with oils (oil another sacred cow of the Age of Pisces), preaching a message of love (big Pisces virtue), and refers to himself and his followers as a fisher of men (fish being the symbol of Pisces).

So using Astrology in this symbolism decoder kind of manner, we can see that we've been in this cycle for three times, which gets us further back than Northrop Frye could go, and it positions us to be entering into a new Civilization level age and at the end of another. A new civilization where the winners of the last civilization shift and their chosen activities slowly turning from the "heroes" into the "villains" as we turn to a more Aquarian mindset which no longer sees feet, oil, fish, or even love as sacred. A world where reason, knowledge, ankles & shins, detachment from emotions, the sky, and man--will be seen as the views of the day.

~Chas'88

It seems to me, in its low-brow way, our current culture is filling the role of the classic, heroic phase at the start of the Frye cycle, and has already moved past the ironic phase at the end.

I think the decisive shift was Star Wars in 1977, and the boomer directors. Since then we have had many hero-journey blockbuster stories, often original, though sometimes bringing back old stories. We had Indiana Jones, The Lord of the Rings, Batman, Forrest Gump, Braveheart, The Matrix, and Harry Potter. These are classic hero stories; often deliberately so-- based directly on Joseph Campbell's mythic hero's journey scholarship. There was my particular favorite, The Ultimate Gift. There are strong elements of the supernatural and the fantastic in these films.

Now, most movies in history are not ironic, but it seems clear that the favorite cultural fashion now is these heroic fantasy stories. On Broadway, the great plays of the 1940s and 50s were ironic, such as the works of O'Neill, Williams, Albee, Pinter, and above all Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot. But the more recent greatest plays are not these kind, but A Chorus Line and Cats. That too seems like a shift toward the first classic phase of a cycle.

The 500-year cycle also has larger phases such as 1000, 1500 or 2000 year cycles of civilizations. In this regard, you had bronze-age Greece under Mycenae, then the classic golden age, and then the Roman Empire. I agree that our times are more like Rome; thus a final stage in "western civilization" that began in the Dark Ages. However, what we are seeing now is really the death of western and the birth of global civilization, just as Rome was as global an empire as could be achieved in its day; the final expression of the Age of Aries.

The key meaning of the Aquarian Age, as opposed to the Piscean and Aries Ages, is in religion, and is relevant mainly to religious life. That seems to be the primary expression of that precession cycle. What this means, is that the New Age, the Aquarian Age, features the increasing spread of religion based on knowledge. The motto of Aquarius is "I know;" the motto of Pisces is "I believe" (in this respect Justin Bieber is still Piscean, and is in fact a Pisces). Religion in the new age is to be based on knowledge, or the direct experience of God, rather than on belief in dogmas and tenets as passed down by priests and books, or on feats of conquest as in the Age of Aries.

And, pray tell, which cycle was the genocide of the Native American?

That's an easy one, Deb! Columbus sailed the ocean blue. The whole enterprise of European exploration and conquest, including that of Native Norte-Americanos as well as native Latin-Americanos such as Mexicans, Peruvians, etc, was part of that enterprise of "genocide," and this conquest was the main expression of the Renaissance cycle of civilization. It began with the conjunction of Neptune-Pluto in circa 1400 (time of Henry the Navigator), and climaxed and then ended with the imperialist wars of circa 1900 (Neptune-Pluto conjunction, 1892) and the world wars that shortly followed, which disempowered Europe as world dominant and shorn it of its empire.

The American Empire replaced it, along with other successor states. So I imagine it's here for the next 400 years, but not without the periodic 4T that from now on will challenge it to change and to grow ethically rather than materially and militarily. The real meaning and challenge of our time, however, is that no state, American or otherwise, can any longer be an Empire. The USA has already learned that it can't dominate the world, and so would any future would-be empire. The meaning of our cycle of civilization, 1892-2385, is clearly that we are now one world civilization. Adjusting to that reality is the issue of our times, as well as adjusting to the realities of how European and American technology has enabled us to dominate the planetary environment itself. Global Consciousness of One Earth, mutually dependent on each other and the environment, is the dawning new age in this cycle of civilization. All peoples play a role in this world fusion.

Conceivably another counter-cyclical phenomenon would be the re-emergence of Expansion. As this doesn't seem imminent, it is problematic-society might falter, and a Dominant Minority may become entrenched.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's an easy one, Deb! Columbus sailed the ocean blue. The whole enterprise of European exploration and conquest, including that of Native Norte-Americanos as well as native Latin-Americanos such as Mexicans, Peruvians, etc, was part of that enterprise of "genocide," and this conquest was the main expression of the Renaissance cycle of civilization. It began with the conjunction of Neptune-Pluto in circa 1400 (time of Henry the Navigator), and climaxed and then ended with the imperialist wars of circa 1900 (Neptune-Pluto conjunction, 1892) and the world wars that shortly followed, which disempowered Europe as world dominant and shorn it of its empire.

The American Empire replaced it, along with other successor states. So I imagine it's here for the next 400 years, but not without the periodic 4T that from now on will challenge it to change and to grow ethically rather than materially and militarily. The real meaning and challenge of our time, however, is that no state, American or otherwise, can any longer be an Empire. The USA has already learned that it can't dominate the world, and so would any future would-be empire. The meaning of our cycle of civilization, 1892-2385, is clearly that we are now one world civilization. Adjusting to that reality is the issue of our times, as well as adjusting to the realities of how European and American technology has enabled us to dominate the planetary environment itself. Global Consciousness of One Earth, mutually dependent on each other and the environment, is the dawning new age in this cycle of civilization. All peoples play a role in this world fusion.

Or to put it more succinctly and tunefully,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=730Ec63C6zg

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Or to put it more succinctly and tunefully,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=730Ec63C6zg

Lol, that was the first album I ever bought. I was 12.

Not to say that the Europeans weren't more or less terrible to the Indigenous populations they encountered, but most historians agree that the massive depopulation that made colonization possible was due to disease, not intentionally genocidal behavior. There's no indication that European immigrants intentionally poisoned the local population with diseases, but rather, that depopulation by disease made it easy for Europeans to come in, take over, and be terrible.

So the Europeans were jerks, but they were opportunistic jerks as opposed to genocidal jerks.

Originally Posted by Kepi

Not to say that the Europeans weren't more or less terrible to the Indigenous populations they encountered, but most historians agree that the massive depopulation that made colonization possible was due to disease, not intentionally genocidal behavior.

Not all the Indians succumbed to disease, there were still a million or so in the US who survived. By the end of the 19^th century they were down to less 250K. By this time Indians has been removed from most regions of value in the US.

So the Europeans were jerks, but they were opportunistic jerks as opposed to genocidal jerks.

There was a genocide of Indians in California during the Gold Rush.

Excerpt from Remarks of Kevin Gover, Assistant Secretary-Indian Affairs at the Ceremony Acknowledging the 175th Anniversary of the Establishment of the Bureau of Indian Affairs:

From the very beginning, the Office of Indian Affairs was an instrument by which the United States enforced its ambition against the Indian nations and Indian people who stood in its path. And so, the first mission of this institution was to execute the removal of the southeastern tribal nations. By threat, deceit, and force, these great tribal nations were made to march 1,000 miles to the west, leaving thousands of their old, their young and their infirm in hasty graves along the Trail of Tears.

As the nation looked to the West for more land, this agency participated in the ethnic cleansing that befell the western tribes. War necessarily begets tragedy; the war for the West was no exception. Yet in these more enlightened times, it must be acknowledged that the deliberate spread of disease, the decimation of the mighty bison herds, the use of the poison alcohol to destroy mind and body, and the cowardly killing of women and children made for tragedy on a scale so ghastly that it cannot be dismissed as merely the inevitable consequence of the clash of competing ways of life.

Babylon continued..... There is a chapter about "Old Babylon" culture which has distubing parallels to the Second Gilded Age of recent years. This chapter of history is about the years leading up to Mesopotamia civilization becoming moribund. Yes, I thought I was done with this thread, but I came across new information...which is a warning for present day people.