One funny thing I have noticed living in Europe is that many Europeans' perceptions of Americans is almost solely based on our international leadership. For example I have an Italian last name. Everybody here calls me the Italian man, even though I am American. They don't understand that Americans have other names other than Clinton, Gore, Cheney, Powell, Bush, etc. They say, "but you have an Italian name, how can you be an American?"

This is a funny thing I have noticed. They also consider the American accent to be very folksy and depictions of americans in my textbooks always draw on the Western themes, cowboy hats etc.

It's pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Governor Gallagher

One funny thing I have noticed living in Europe is that many Europeans' perceptions of Americans is almost solely based on our international leadership. For example I have an Italian last name. Everybody here calls me the Italian man, even though I am American. They don't understand that Americans have other names other than Clinton, Gore, Cheney, Powell, Bush, etc. They say, "but you have an Italian name, how can you be an American?"

This is a funny thing I have noticed. They also consider the American accent to be very folksy and depictions of americans in my textbooks always draw on the Western themes, cowboy hats etc.

The "electablity" thing again.

People in Italy often thought I was German.

*** *** **** **** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *

Originally Posted by Governor Gallagher

This is a funny thing I have noticed. They also consider the American accent to be very folksy and depictions of americans in my textbooks always draw on the Western themes, cowboy hats etc.

It's pretty funny.

I speak reasonably fluent Spanish, a bit of French, and due to this and a Latin course, can read Italian at a grade-school level. I'll chat with Europeans online and they don't believe I'm really American because "everybody" knows Americans only speak English.

It's a lot of fun--for example, when Stromboli had the big blow-up several months ago, one of my Italian friends was able to send me links with a lot better coverage because they were local, and I had no problem figuring out the articles.

It would be funny if it wasn't such a pity.

Originally Posted by Tim Walker

I wonder how they would react to someone who's ancestry includes several different ethnic groups, none of them WASP?

Aren't they aware that there were different waves of immigration?

*** ***

Well how do you feel about Canadians? In my mind Canadians are always French, British, Irish, Scottish, Metis or Native American.
I never think about the large pockets of Poles and Hungarians that live in Canada.

How about Argentinians? Almost always Spaniards in my mind, yet many I have met have been from Irish and German backgrounds.

Have you ever met a Brazilian of Japanese or Italian descent? hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Italians poured into Portuguese speaking Brazil a hundred years ago.

So you see...it's hard to tell from afar. But the truth is..I AM Italian. The same way Peter Tosh was an African. Just because my ancestors left that country a hundred years ago doesn't mean that I don't look like them or share some of their habits or had similar upraisings or values.
I also have an Irish and English side, but when you look like me its pretty hard going to a land where everybody has freckles and blue eyes and thinking "this is where my ancestors came from."

************************************************** **************

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

More than 13,000 have died in France because the temperature there was about 40C for two weeks on end. That is the sort of death toll in proporation to the population my Victoria suffered in similar sorts of heatwaves in 1908 and 1939, when air conditioners were not common place, now they are. If 2 weeks of 40C plus temperatures came to Victoria next summer, I can't see the death toll being over 1,000.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/eu...ave/index.html

Air conditioning is quite rare in France; indeed, most people don't even have fans.

There was a snotty editorial in the Washington Post saying that Americans take hot temperatures in stride -- what's the big deal? Some people wrote letters to the editor rightly chastising the Post by pointing out the lack of air conditioning.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Air conditioning is quite rare in France; indeed, most people don't even have fans.

There was a snotty editorial in the Washington Post saying that Americans take hot temperatures in stride -- what's the big deal? Some people wrote letters to the editor rightly chastising the Post by pointing out the lack of air conditioning.

Agreed! As a general rule, Europe is far more temperate and not as prone to extremes. A better simile would be say Florida dealing with a 15 inch snowstorm--they don't have what they need! And even in that case, there are many transplants from more northerly climes who know just what to do who can help others.

Furthermore, the US has a further advantage because just a few states away, they do get snow, and plows can be fitted and shovels sent over in short order. We don't have to negotiate with another sovereign country for this help.

If the Northeast gets a heatwave and there's a sudden need for air conditioners, there's plenty in stock in warmer areas as a matter of course, and some of those would be diverted. Even if every person in France had decided to purchase an air conditioner, they didn't have them to distribute, nor could their power grid handle such a load.

I hope that France at the least will set up cooling centers like they do in US big cities, and that people who do have AC will be more mindful of their neighbors in the future.

Originally Posted by Zola

Originally Posted by Governor Gallagher

This is a funny thing I have noticed. They also consider the American accent to be very folksy and depictions of americans in my textbooks always draw on the Western themes, cowboy hats etc.

It's pretty funny.

I speak reasonably fluent Spanish, a bit of French, and due to this and a Latin course, can read Italian at a grade-school level. I'll chat with Europeans online and they don't believe I'm really American because "everybody" knows Americans only speak English.

And, of course, about 100 words of Spanish from high school...

It's a lot of fun--for example, when Stromboli had the big blow-up several months ago, one of my Italian friends was able to send me links with a lot better coverage because they were local, and I had no problem figuring out the articles.

It would be funny if it wasn't such a pity.

:-)... and it was pretty damn fun in austria when i had no problems with the language

Originally Posted by Governor Gallagher

One funny thing I have noticed living in Europe is that many Europeans' perceptions of Americans is almost solely based on our international leadership. For example I have an Italian last name. Everybody here calls me the Italian man, even though I am American. They don't understand that Americans have other names other than Clinton, Gore, Cheney, Powell, Bush, etc. They say, "but you have an Italian name, how can you be an American?"

This is a funny thing I have noticed. They also consider the American accent to be very folksy and depictions of americans in my textbooks always draw on the Western themes, cowboy hats etc.

It's pretty funny.

I wonder, Justin, if that perception varies based on where in Europe one goes? For example when I visited France in 1995, the cute college girl who worked in the hotel breakfast nook asked me, immediately after taking my order, if I was American or British. She could just...tell...that I was from an English speaking country, most likely the U.S., and I don't sound folksy or cowboyish in the slightest degree. Then again, perhaps that is why she also wondered if I was perhaps British.

Originally Posted by The Wonk

Air conditioning is quite rare in France; indeed, most people don't even have fans.

There was a snotty editorial in the Washington Post saying that Americans take hot temperatures in stride -- what's the big deal? Some people wrote letters to the editor rightly chastising the Post by pointing out the lack of air conditioning.

In North America the summers are generally quite hot (periods of Hot weather are common in summer even in Southern Canada), dry desert heat dominates in the in the west (expect for the high mountains and plateaus and coastal areas) and tropical humid heat in the east.

Areas of the so-called Sunbelt are so hot in summer, it took the introduction of air conditioners in the 1950's to allow large numbers of people to live and work there comfortably. Las Vegas and Phoenix for example were very small communities until after WW2.

Europe's summers are quite mild in the North (Daytime temperatures are normally around 60-80F during summer in Northern Europe) and hot and dry in the South. It?s not really necessary to have air conditioners and fans in Northern Europe even in summer (I think in Southern Europe air conditioners are more commonplace among public buildings at least). It is not just homes and other buildings which lack good air conditioning; European cars have pretty weak air conditioners and do not work properly in Australia?s hot summers.

Originally Posted by Zola

I hope that France at the least will set up cooling centers like they do in US big cities, and that people who do have AC will be more mindful of their neighbors in the future.

I am wondering in places like hosptials and other public buildings like office buildings in other Northern European countries like Britain or Germany, do they have reserve cycle air conditioning or climate control systems, which regardless of the weather outside keeps the temperature in the building about a constant 70F?

Originally Posted by Tim Walker

I used to know a (married) couple of grad students from Argentina. The husband was of Spanish descent, the wife of Italian descent. I understand that Argentina experienced a large wave of Italian immigration. Perhaps people have a general tendency to stereotype remote countries-this is understandable if people lack the experience of visiting a country. What they think they know is how they see things. Concievably, such misconceptions could have a negative impact on the Crisis era. ** ** ** ** **

Argentina and Uruguay are the most European nations in South America (A good case can be made they are Typical Southern European nations, instead of Latin American ones), a large proporation of the population there are descendants of European migrants who came after about 1880, and Brazil is like this to a lesser extent. Spain, Italy, Germany were the main countries these migrants these countries came from, also many other European nations. Also there are a large number of people in those countries who came from Lebanon and Syria.

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

Europe's summers are quite mild in the North (Daytime temperatures are normally around 60-80F during summer in Northern Europe) and hot and dry in the South. It?s not really necessary to have air conditioners and fans in Northern Europe even in summer (I think in Southern Europe air conditioners are more commonplace among public buildings at least).

I lived in Italy for a year and nine months (Sep 1992 to May 1994) and I never saw an air conditioner, or a thermostat. We made do with fans, and opening windows (though they usually didn't have screens.) The hottest I remember it getting was 37C but that was just once. I was outside much of the day but I don't remember it ever getting unbearably hot.

Also, there, most of the country (as in France) will spend all of August down at the beach.

Originally Posted by Governor Gallagher

Well how do you feel about Canadians? In my mind Canadians are always French, British, Irish, Scottish, Metis or Native American.
I never think about the large pockets of Poles and Hungarians that live in Canada.

I think there are larger pockets of Pakistanis, Jamaicans, and Italians.

How about Argentinians? Almost always Spaniards in my mind, yet many I have met have been from Irish and German backgrounds.

Big Italian population down there too.

The Islamization of France

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





















by Jean-Christophe Mounicq [ 28/08/2003 ]


If Samuel Huntington?s ?Clash of Civilization? theory is right, France is on the front line. With at least six and maybe eight million Muslims living in its territory among a total population of 60 million, France is the most ?islamized? Western country. Seeing France?s inability to adapt to globalization or to the aging of its population, it could be bad news for the world that the French are the first to be forced to facilitate the emergence of a ?modern? Islam.



As nearly every Western country absorbs a fast growing Muslim minority, every Westerner should look closely at France. A French failure to integrate Muslims could lead to a general European and Western failure. Those who don?t believe in the clash of civilizations might at least see a clash between traditional Islamic values and Western republican values. This raises the question of the compatibility of Islam with secular democracy (separation of church and state) and human rights (especially the rights of women and of non-Muslims).



All Muslims do not interpret the Koran identically and do not practice the same forms of Islam. But which Islam is going to win in Western countries? Even if they do not say it openly, more and more French citizens fear an Islamist victory that could lead to religious and civil war. The vote in favour of Jean-Marie Le Pen is emblematic of this fear. Locally, votes in favour of the National Front are linked to the proportion of Muslim immigrants in the population.



Stephen Schwartz, in his book The Two Faces of Islam, has an optimistic view of the Islamic question and believes any problems stem from the radical Wahabist sect. The Saudis finance most mosques and Islamic schools all over the world. This leads to a worrisome preponderance of Wahabi influence over Muslim thought. One has to admire the courage of Schwartz, whose fight against Islamo-fascism is of extreme importance.



Schwartz thinks Islam is essentially a religion of ?tolerance? and that Mohammed was a ?man of peace?. Yes and no. Muslims do tolerate others but they also give them an inferior status. Mohammed was a man of peace but also a warrior. The beliefs of Mr Schwartz are so strong that he converted to Islam. His choice certainly demonstrates one solution to preventing a clash of civilization.



As every non-Muslim may not be in the mood to convert, and as every Muslim does not adhere to the same peaceful reading of the Koran, one may be permitted a more pessimistic view. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists. But from Bali to Riyadh, from Karachi to Jerusalem, from Moscow to New York most terrorists are Muslims. In his book Why I Am Not a Muslim, Ibn Warraq, born Muslim, contends that ?all Muslims still take the Koran literally? and hence ?there is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism?. It is certain that, as Bernard Lewis wrote, ?the creed and political program of Islamic fundamentalist are not compatible with liberal democracy.?



So what percentage of Muslims is fundamentalist? From Algeria to Turkey, when Muslims are free to vote, Islamists regularly win 30 to 40 percent of the votes. In France... the result was no different. In May 2003, the French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, organized elections for a Representative Council of French Muslims. The Islamists of the UOIF (Union des Organisations Islamistes de France) won over 40 percent of the votes.



This election was a major failure for Sarkozy, who wanted to promote moderate Muslim leaders like Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Mosque of Paris. Before the elections Dalil Boubakeur denounced ?the Islam of the suburbs, the Islam of the excited? and was anxious about ?more and more young going from the suburbs to Peshawar?. He asked ?Why shave the beards in Kabul while cultivating them in the Paris area??



The result of the election, which took place among Mosque-goers who are more fundamentalist than ?average? Muslims, was to give power to the president of the UOIF -- who wears a beard and asserts that ?our constitution is Koran? -- a way to reject the constitution of France and live according to Islamic (Sharia) law clearly opposed to French law. The problem with Islam is that it is not only a religion but also an ideology that intends to rule man?s life on earth.



Was the victory of the Islamists really a surprise given the recent resurgence of anti-Semitism, mainly instigated by young Arabs, in France? After 9/11, in the 19th Arrondissement of Paris, many blew their automobile horns loudly. After the beginning of the new Intifada in Israel, thousands shouted openly ?death to the Jews? in Strasbourg. During the Iraqi war, thousands waved portraits of Saddam, Israeli flags with Nazi emblems and Bush portraits with Hitler?s moustache.



A stranger may wonder at the lack of French reaction. Is it because the Catholic French are also anti-American and anti-Semitic? The answer is: no. It is more a mixture of laziness (?we?ll see later?), fear (?do not provoke Muslims, they may become terrorists?), bad conscience (?Crusades, colonies, unemployment?), optimism (?we will invent the best system?) and difficulty confronting reality.



Economics plays a major role in the ?Muslim problem?. The overwhelming poverty in Middle Eastern and North African countries, ruled for centuries by Islam, drives their populations to desperation. The Islamists, nostalgic for the glorious past of the Caliphates, place the blame for these conditions mainly on Westerners, rejecting the fact that the problem has its roots in the failure of their own societies. With one of the highest unemployment levels for youth among OECD countries, France is in a bad position to provide a model of integration.



Many Muslims came to France only to benefit from the state welfare system, get free social housing, free school, free Medicare, and family allocations but with no desire to adapt to French rule of law. Last July, Sarkozy passed a bill intended to control immigration networks and to stop some Muslim customs: polygamy, excision, repudiation and forced marriage. One hopes that he will be more successful than with the election of his Islamic council. If the Islamization of France goes on it will accelerate the clash of civilization.

The Islamization of France

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





















by Jean-Christophe Mounicq [ 28/08/2003 ]


If Samuel Huntington?s ?Clash of Civilization? theory is right, France is on the front line. With at least six and maybe eight million Muslims living in its territory among a total population of 60 million, France is the most ?islamized? Western country. Seeing France?s inability to adapt to globalization or to the aging of its population, it could be bad news for the world that the French are the first to be forced to facilitate the emergence of a ?modern? Islam.



As nearly every Western country absorbs a fast growing Muslim minority, every Westerner should look closely at France. A French failure to integrate Muslims could lead to a general European and Western failure. Those who don?t believe in the clash of civilizations might at least see a clash between traditional Islamic values and Western republican values. This raises the question of the compatibility of Islam with secular democracy (separation of church and state) and human rights (especially the rights of women and of non-Muslims).



All Muslims do not interpret the Koran identically and do not practice the same forms of Islam. But which Islam is going to win in Western countries? Even if they do not say it openly, more and more French citizens fear an Islamist victory that could lead to religious and civil war. The vote in favour of Jean-Marie Le Pen is emblematic of this fear. Locally, votes in favour of the National Front are linked to the proportion of Muslim immigrants in the population.



Stephen Schwartz, in his book The Two Faces of Islam, has an optimistic view of the Islamic question and believes any problems stem from the radical Wahabist sect. The Saudis finance most mosques and Islamic schools all over the world. This leads to a worrisome preponderance of Wahabi influence over Muslim thought. One has to admire the courage of Schwartz, whose fight against Islamo-fascism is of extreme importance.



Schwartz thinks Islam is essentially a religion of ?tolerance? and that Mohammed was a ?man of peace?. Yes and no. Muslims do tolerate others but they also give them an inferior status. Mohammed was a man of peace but also a warrior. The beliefs of Mr Schwartz are so strong that he converted to Islam. His choice certainly demonstrates one solution to preventing a clash of civilization.



As every non-Muslim may not be in the mood to convert, and as every Muslim does not adhere to the same peaceful reading of the Koran, one may be permitted a more pessimistic view. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists. But from Bali to Riyadh, from Karachi to Jerusalem, from Moscow to New York most terrorists are Muslims. In his book Why I Am Not a Muslim, Ibn Warraq, born Muslim, contends that ?all Muslims still take the Koran literally? and hence ?there is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism?. It is certain that, as Bernard Lewis wrote, ?the creed and political program of Islamic fundamentalist are not compatible with liberal democracy.?



So what percentage of Muslims is fundamentalist? From Algeria to Turkey, when Muslims are free to vote, Islamists regularly win 30 to 40 percent of the votes. In France... the result was no different. In May 2003, the French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, organized elections for a Representative Council of French Muslims. The Islamists of the UOIF (Union des Organisations Islamistes de France) won over 40 percent of the votes.



This election was a major failure for Sarkozy, who wanted to promote moderate Muslim leaders like Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Mosque of Paris. Before the elections Dalil Boubakeur denounced ?the Islam of the suburbs, the Islam of the excited? and was anxious about ?more and more young going from the suburbs to Peshawar?. He asked ?Why shave the beards in Kabul while cultivating them in the Paris area??



The result of the election, which took place among Mosque-goers who are more fundamentalist than ?average? Muslims, was to give power to the president of the UOIF -- who wears a beard and asserts that ?our constitution is Koran? -- a way to reject the constitution of France and live according to Islamic (Sharia) law clearly opposed to French law. The problem with Islam is that it is not only a religion but also an ideology that intends to rule man?s life on earth.



Was the victory of the Islamists really a surprise given the recent resurgence of anti-Semitism, mainly instigated by young Arabs, in France? After 9/11, in the 19th Arrondissement of Paris, many blew their automobile horns loudly. After the beginning of the new Intifada in Israel, thousands shouted openly ?death to the Jews? in Strasbourg. During the Iraqi war, thousands waved portraits of Saddam, Israeli flags with Nazi emblems and Bush portraits with Hitler?s moustache.



A stranger may wonder at the lack of French reaction. Is it because the Catholic French are also anti-American and anti-Semitic? The answer is: no. It is more a mixture of laziness (?we?ll see later?), fear (?do not provoke Muslims, they may become terrorists?), bad conscience (?Crusades, colonies, unemployment?), optimism (?we will invent the best system?) and difficulty confronting reality.



Economics plays a major role in the ?Muslim problem?. The overwhelming poverty in Middle Eastern and North African countries, ruled for centuries by Islam, drives their populations to desperation. The Islamists, nostalgic for the glorious past of the Caliphates, place the blame for these conditions mainly on Westerners, rejecting the fact that the problem has its roots in the failure of their own societies. With one of the highest unemployment levels for youth among OECD countries, France is in a bad position to provide a model of integration.



Many Muslims came to France only to benefit from the state welfare system, get free social housing, free school, free Medicare, and family allocations but with no desire to adapt to French rule of law. Last July, Sarkozy passed a bill intended to control immigration networks and to stop some Muslim customs: polygamy, excision, repudiation and forced marriage. One hopes that he will be more successful than with the election of his Islamic council. If the Islamization of France goes on it will accelerate the clash of civilization.

Politicians call for children's vote
Before you snicker, remember that Jimmy Carter tried to appoint a judicial candidate who wanted to lower the voting age in America to either 14 or 12, I forget which.

The following is quoted purely for discussion without intention of infringement.


http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...47_1_A,00.html

A group of cross-party politicians in the German Bundestag has called for the introduction of a children's vote. With the "voting right from birth", parents should be able to vote on behalf of their children. The group said their aim was to attract more attention to children's issues: "It is unfair that more than 5 percent of Germany's citizens cannot vote". The group's draft petition which was presented on Thursday calls for the possibility for parents to vote in the name of their children until they reach the age of 18 and that parents should talk to their children about election decisions as soon as they reach an appropriate age. Critics say these propositions are naive. "Many parents have a completely different opinion in politics than their children", Irmingard Schewe-Gerigk from the Greens said.

Politicians call for children's vote
Before you snicker, remember that Jimmy Carter tried to appoint a judicial candidate who wanted to lower the voting age in America to either 14 or 12, I forget which.

The following is quoted purely for discussion without intention of infringement.


http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...47_1_A,00.html

A group of cross-party politicians in the German Bundestag has called for the introduction of a children's vote. With the "voting right from birth", parents should be able to vote on behalf of their children. The group said their aim was to attract more attention to children's issues: "It is unfair that more than 5 percent of Germany's citizens cannot vote". The group's draft petition which was presented on Thursday calls for the possibility for parents to vote in the name of their children until they reach the age of 18 and that parents should talk to their children about election decisions as soon as they reach an appropriate age. Critics say these propositions are naive. "Many parents have a completely different opinion in politics than their children", Irmingard Schewe-Gerigk from the Greens said.

And to Swedes, this matters. With the possible exception of some of ABBA's less-successful costumes, Sweden has far less to be ashamed of in its past than quite a number of the EU's member states. As a result many Swedes retain far more nationalistic pride, politely understated, of course, than is acceptable in some of Europe's grubbier spots. Add to that a long ? and active ? democratic tradition and it's easy to see why it was worries over the loss of sovereignty and democratic control that weighed heaviest with the "anti"s. Even the fears that the nation's generous ? and absurdly expensive ? social-security system would be endangered by the euro (another important reason for the "no" vote) have to be understood in this context. Misguided they may be, but to many Swedes, their fiercely egalitarian welfare state, folkhemmet ("the people's home"), is about more than economics. It's something that helps define them as a people. Any perceived threat to it was a sensitive issue in a vote that was, at its heart, all about national identity.

Yea to the Nej
Swedes won't take the euro.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Politicians call for children's vote
Before you snicker, remember that Jimmy Carter tried to appoint a judicial candidate who wanted to lower the voting age in America to either 14 or 12, I forget which.

The following is quoted purely for discussion without intention of infringement.


http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...47_1_A,00.html

A group of cross-party politicians in the German Bundestag has called for the introduction of a children's vote. With the "voting right from birth", parents should be able to vote on behalf of their children. The group said their aim was to attract more attention to children's issues: "It is unfair that more than 5 percent of Germany's citizens cannot vote". The group's draft petition which was presented on Thursday calls for the possibility for parents to vote in the name of their children until they reach the age of 18 and that parents should talk to their children about election decisions as soon as they reach an appropriate age. Critics say these propositions are naive. "Many parents have a completely different opinion in politics than their children", Irmingard Schewe-Gerigk from the Greens said.

I dunno I really want to support lowering the voting age, however I think such a important decision should be debated among the public.

Originally Posted by HopefulCynic68

Politicians call for children's vote
Before you snicker, remember that Jimmy Carter tried to appoint a judicial candidate who wanted to lower the voting age in America to either 14 or 12, I forget which.

The following is quoted purely for discussion without intention of infringement.


http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...47_1_A,00.html

A group of cross-party politicians in the German Bundestag has called for the introduction of a children's vote. With the "voting right from birth", parents should be able to vote on behalf of their children. The group said their aim was to attract more attention to children's issues: "It is unfair that more than 5 percent of Germany's citizens cannot vote". The group's draft petition which was presented on Thursday calls for the possibility for parents to vote in the name of their children until they reach the age of 18 and that parents should talk to their children about election decisions as soon as they reach an appropriate age. Critics say these propositions are naive. "Many parents have a completely different opinion in politics than their children", Irmingard Schewe-Gerigk from the Greens said.

That last quote (parents vs. childrens' opinion) is why I wouldn't like that proposal in particular (that being said... though, i don't see why any US citizen who desires to register to vote and is physically able to do so should be prevented from exercising their fundamental democratic right/responsiblity/privilege - we just had an election in Baltimore where some people as young as 16 could vote; although the 16s turned out in record proportions, the election went on without a hitch and with the incumbent winning with 2/3 of the vote...)

Originally Posted by mmailliw 8419

That last quote (parents vs. childrens' opinion) is why I wouldn't like that proposal in particular (that being said... though, i don't see why any US citizen who desires to register to vote and is physically able to do so should be prevented from exercising their fundamental democratic right/responsiblity/privilege - we just had an election in Baltimore where some people as young as 16 could vote; although the 16s turned out in record proportions, the election went on without a hitch and with the incumbent winning with 2/3 of the vote...)

I'm not so sure about that...16 is okay, but a lots of kids aren't too interested in politics, and I worry that parents will have undue influence.

Just a funny aside, back in the day when Bush Sr. ran against Clinton in 1992, the kids had an election in school and my daughter said cheerfully that she preferred Bush. I immediately teased her about being a budding conservative and we both laughed and went on to other topics.

It came up again when we were in the grocery store for one reason or another and I gently teased her again. Being in third grade and a bit of a literalist, she was immediately hesitant about her choice, and I reassured her that when it came her time to vote that she should always vote for whomever she thought would do the best job and that my opinion didn't matter, she had every right to disagree. This pleased her and she in turn began to tease me about choosing Clinton.

She went to put something on the checkout roller and dropped it, and I joked "what do you expect for someone who voted for BUSH?" and she laughed. At this point the lady behind us patted her hand and piped up "Don't feel bad, dearie, I voted for Bush too."

1) Your '85 daughter was in 3rd grade in 92-93? Would that have meant she skipped? Or am I missing something here with the years? I know that in 92-93 (my 4th grade year) they had us do an election between two fictitious candidates Smith and Jones with crazy positions to demonstrate the electoral college (Smith won; Jones didn't even get a single electoral vote) and then one between Clinton and Bush (I think Bush won by about 60-40)... but your story was funny and has a good ending :-P

2) Of course, with something like the voting age, it would most likely be a bad idea to get rid of it all at once (instead of gradually and seeing whether or not each incremental lowering would be a good idea), but it IS worth noting that in the Baltimore election (where people born between 9/10/86 and 11/2/86, despite being 16 at the time of the election, could vote as they would turn 18 by the time of the general election), although the election was only a mayoral primary and only about 1/5 - 1/6 of the eligible 17-year-olds chose to vote, a MAJORITY of the 16-year-olds did (the "PlayStation generation"?) so maybe there's something there!

The following is posted here for educational and discussion purposes only:


Updated: 02:58 PM EDT
Leaders Seek Fast Track on EU Constitution
Newcomer Nations Demanding Major Changes
By Ed Johnson, AP

ROME (Oct. 4) - European Union leaders said Saturday they hope to endorse their new constitution in mid-December, setting a tight deadline for overcoming a power struggle between small and large nations.

The leaders emerged from a four-hour summit in Rome promising the constitution will take effect in 2005. By then, 10 more nations will have joined the bloc, raising the EU membership to 25.

But tough bargaining lies ahead in the next 10 weeks.

As the leaders left the summit Saturday, their foreign ministers began the first of a series of debates to settle disagreements over the text.

``We have opened a new page in Europe's history,'' French President Jacques Chirac said.

Chirac and other leaders cautioned against a wholesale re-negotiation of the draft.

The constitution foresees an EU president, a foreign minister, a structured defense policy and provisions to make it more difficult to wield vetoes that cause bureaucratic gridlock. It also calls for an EU executive of only 15 members, denying each state the automatic right to one European Commissioner.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi, whose country holds the EU presidency, said ``a very difficult task awaits us'' in overcoming differences.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw suggested that divisions over the war in Iraq should not stop EU nations from seeking an integrated security and foreign policy, saying ``we are stronger when we are united.''

The leaders met amid heavy security at the Palazzo dei Congressi, a Fascist-era convention complex in southern Rome, away from the city's historic center.

Police cordoned off a 2 1/2-mile zone around the venue. Masked demonstrators clashed with officers, swinging wooden clubs and trying to push past the barrier. Police fired tear gas to disperse them.

In other parts of the city, protesters gutted an employment agency, vandalized two gas stations and a bank, and threw rolls of toilet paper at police. Authorities detained about 50 demonstrators.

The debate has pitted countries into alliances.

Austria, Finland and those set to join the club next year - Hungary, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Malta and Lithuania - are demanding that the charter ``respects the principles of equality'' of nations large and small.

They want to renegotiate majority voting rules, the role of EU leaders in union decision-making, the need to keep the EU presidency rotating among member states, the allocation of European Parliament seats and national votes in decision-making ministerial meeting.

Poland and Spain want to retain a complicated formula that allocates national votes in decision-making meetings; Germany and others back the draft's proposal for a redistribution of votes to more closely reflect population figures.

Also, Poland, Spain and Italy want the constitution to refer to God and Judeo-Christian values as a vital part of European heritage - something opposed by France.

``There should be no favoritism in religions,'' Chirac said.

Britain insists foreign issues, taxation, social security and defense matters remain subject to national vetoes.

It is the fourth time in a decade that EU states have undertaken to rewrite the rule book. A final constitution must be ratified by all EU legislatures and the European Parliament if it is to take effect in 2005.


10/04/03 14:52 EDT

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