Originally Posted by Oriana Fallaci at Front Page Magazine

The enemies of the West . . . are not only in Baghdad.
They are also in Europe. They are in Paris . . . They are in Berlin, where the party of the mediocre Gerhard Schroeder won the elections by comparing Mr. Bush to Hitler, where American flags are soiled with the swastika . . . They are in Rome . . . where, pestering the world with his ecumenism, his pietism, his Thirdworldism, Pope Wojtyla receives Tariq Aziz as a dove or a martyr who is about to be eaten by lions. (Then he sends him to Assisi where the friars escort him to the tomb of St. Francis.) In the other European countries, it is more or less the same. In Europe your enemies are everywhere, Mr. Bush. What you quietly call "differences of opinion" are in reality pure hate. Because in Europe pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism, sir, and accompanied by the most sinister revival of anti-Semitism the anti-Americanism triumphs as much as in the Islamic world. Haven't your ambassadors informed you? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors. It lodges thousands of Islamic terrorists whom governments don't know how to identify and control. People are afraid, and in waving the flag of pacifism?pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism?they feel protected.

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

Sounds typical of Fallaci, from what I've seen previously.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

I believe she's asking for help. She appears to be telling us the reason Europe is demonstrating against us is a fear of Islam that resides in Europe. It does make some sense.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent?

That's left-wing ORTHODOXY. Just ask someone like Stokely 'Violence is as American as apple pie' Carmichael.

Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent?

That's left-wing ORTHODOXY. Just ask someone like Stokely 'Violence is as American as apple pie' Carmichael.

No offense, but, right now, it's your side that's "kicking ass and taking names." Witness the case of Ted Nugent, Gun-Nut Extraordinaire.

Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent?

That's left-wing ORTHODOXY.

Bullcrap. It's Fallaci's assertion (or at least the logical corrollary of her assertion) and she's no leftist. In fact, now that you mention it, while I've heard a number of prominent Republican types backhandedly equate America with violence, I've really yet to hear such a comparison from similarly placed leftists...

things that make you go hmm.... :?

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

Sounds typical of Fallaci, from what I've seen previously.

Fallaci is an embittered old lady; there are Silents (she is a Silent) who are embittered about the modern of age and especially its complexity, these people dream of a simpler age. Also she is an ex-Marxist radical and still has that type of Marxist thinking (I have never been able to get rid of it either). What makes the Neoconservatives quite effective is many were former Marxists and can deploy Marxist thinking and strategy.

I agree with many of her views; however I look towards the future not the past like she does.

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

She is saying that the anti-war people in Europe aren't pacifists, rather they are anti-American.

Unless you have been a Marxist like me you can't understand her mode of thinking. I paraphrase an old saying, you can leave Marxism, however the Marxism can't leave you.

I often accuse anti-war activists of being anti-American (this has some basis in fact) as a way of trashing them.

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

She is saying that the anti-war people in Europe aren't pacifists, rather they are anti-American.

Actually, that's not what she said. Her words (as quoted above) were:

"in Europe pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism"

She's not saying that Europeans who labelled themselves anti-war were actually anti-American; she said that pacifism itself (in Europe) is the same thing as anti-Americanism.
It's entirely likely that she's just intellecually lazy (her history as a marxist, then neocon tends to support this) and doesn't pay much attention to what she wrtes. Likely she wouldn't even agree with the logical corrollary of her assertion; still:

• She did actually make that assertion
• Others of her ideological bent have made the same assertion
• Pro-war types' assertions notwithstanding, I've yet to actually see any particularly significant personages from the Leftist side equate America with violence the way Fallaci and her ilk do

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Originally Posted by Tristan Jones

Originally Posted by Justin '77

Pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism? Isn't that the same thing as saying that to be American is to be violent? Is that really the statement she wanted to make?

She is saying that the anti-war people in Europe aren't pacifists, rather they are anti-American.

Actually, that's not what she said. Her words (as quoted above) were:

"in Europe pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism"

She's not saying that Europeans who labelled themselves anti-war were actually anti-American; she said that pacifism itself (in Europe) is the same thing as anti-Americanism.
It's entirely likely that she's just intellecually lazy (her history as a marxist, then neocon tends to support this) and doesn't pay much attention to what she wrtes. Likely she wouldn't even agree with the logical corrollary of her assertion; still:

• She did actually make that assertion
• Others of her ideological bent have made the same assertion
• Pro-war types' assertions notwithstanding, I've yet to actually see any particularly significant personages from the Leftist side equate America with violence the way Fallaci and her ilk do

Dude, your chasing ideas when you should be content. "Pacifism is the same as Anti-Americanism" or opposite meaning "Involvement is the same as Pro-Americanism" Which view/action could keep you alive? Which view/action could get you killed?

The last sentence of the last paragragh sums up what she is saying in a nut shell.

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

Originally Posted by freivolk

Here is a interesting poll from Germany. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,350457,00.html
I post it because I think it shows a changing point of view between the generations and shows were german Millenials and younger GenX (or 89er like I call them) sheeds from older 89er.
The question was, if the germans want a reform-pope or a pope following the tradition of JPII. German between 30 and 49 preffered a reform-pope with 67%. Just 27% wanted a pope in JPII tradition.
People 29 or younger preffered in majority still a reform-pope, but just with 48%. 38% want a pope in the tradition of JPII.

The young did not want at reforming Pope as badly eh? Interesting.

Doesn't surprise me. All the German xers I've met (and they've all been male, mind you) have been little Nazis. Almost universally nice, but little Nazis nevertheless. It always amazed me to hear nice little American xer boys spout highly disturbing opinions about things, but the German ones I have met usually outdo them.

PS I can say that right, being part German? Well whatever I just did.

PPS Meeting Germans is almost always a spooky experience for me. I get this weird sense of connectedness, the look and the handshake that's disconcertingly fraternal, familiar. That tribal shit stays with you, sucks you in like a spell. It's like it's in your DNA or something.

Blut und Boden mischt zusammen in der Seele. Du m?sst an dieses immer dich erinnern und an das Vaterland immer dich erinnern!

Und ja, ich scherze nur. :wink:

Paul Gibbons wrote:

Blut und Boden mischt zusammen in der Seele. Du m?sst an dieses immer dich erinnern und an das Vaterland immer dich erinnern!

Und ja, ich scherze nur. :wink:

Better hope Milo is able to translate, Paul. And don't worry folks, it isn't what you're thinking.

Yes, folks, I still live. Just busy readjusting things on my British generations and turnings.

Stanley '61

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

Blut und Boden mischt zusammen in der Seele. Du m?sst an dieses immer dich erinnern und an das Vaterland immer dich erinnern!

Und ja, ich scherze nur. :wink:

Thank you Herr Gibbons. Blood and soil indeed. One suspects our German xer friends are joking about such things as they relate to the fatherland, and just being nomad un-pc. One suspects some of the boomer Bush cons aren't joking about such things as they relate to Jesusland, or the Homeland, or whatever the country/empire/geopolitical entity/large lump of dirt formerly known as the American republic is called now.

Milo wrote:

Thank you Herr Gibbons. Blood and soil indeed. One suspects our German xer friends are joking about such things as they relate to the fatherland, and just being nomad un-pc. One suspects some of the boomer Bush cons aren't joking about such things as they relate to Jesusland, or the Homeland, or whatever the country/empire/geopolitical entity/large lump of dirt formerly known as the American republic is called now.

Please, what those folks think about scares me to death. :shock: I mean, they can't all be that crazy? And to think I was a Baptist. (Lapsed though.) I believe in God and country (more of a British way of thinking) like most people, but I'm not one of those who thinks everyone should think the same way I do. That tends to get folks into trouble when not everyone believe in the same thing. I mean, who wants to go back to Religious Wars? Those things tend to be real nasty.

Stanley '61

Originally Posted by Stanley Alston '61

Milo wrote:

Thank you Herr Gibbons. Blood and soil indeed. One suspects our German xer friends are joking about such things as they relate to the fatherland, and just being nomad un-pc. One suspects some of the boomer Bush cons aren't joking about such things as they relate to Jesusland, or the Homeland, or whatever the country/empire/geopolitical entity/large lump of dirt formerly known as the American republic is called now.

Please, what those folks think about scares me to death. :shock: I mean, they can't all be that crazy? And to think I was a Baptist. (Lapsed though.) I believe in God and country (more of a British way of thinking) like most people, but I'm not one of those who thinks everyone should think the same way I do. That tends to get folks into trouble when not everyone believe in the same thing. I mean, who wants to go back to Religious Wars? Those things tend to be real nasty.

Stanley '61

Fruitcakes, all of them.

Not 4t related (or rather not related to this 4t) but there's a great piece in the Guardian about Hitler's last nurse, who was discovered to be alive not so long ago, and the final days in the bunker:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworl...474601,00.html

Milo wrote:

Fruitcakes, all of them.

And what was your first clue, Herr Milo? :wink:

Stanley '61

Has anyone read George Weigel's "The Cube and the Cathedral"? It's a quick, interesting read.

He basically posits that Europe could implode because of "spiritual boredom": a lack of, hostility towards Christianity. He doesn't spend a lot of time building up his arguments, tracing the advance of European secularism?it's more like he's talking to his fellow Catholics, explaining how, why he feels Europe will wither away...

"The incident that forms the centerpiece of Mr. Weigel's critique is last year's debate over whether "Christianity" should be explicitly acknowledged in the European Union's constitutional treaty. "By the time the draft constitution was completed in June 2004, a grudging reference to 'the cultural, religious, and humanist inheritance of Europe' had been shoehorned into the preamble's first clause," Mr. Weigel notes derisively. This was about as much religion as Europe could stand in a constitution that runs, by Mr. Weigel's count, to 70,000 words..."

"...What is the deeper source of European antipathy to religion? For Mr. Weigel, the problem goes all the way back to the 14th century, when scholastics like William of Ockham argued for "nominalism." According to their philosophy, universals--concepts such as "justice" or "freedom" and qualities such as "white" or "good"--do not exist in the abstract but are merely words that denote instances of what they describe. A current of thought was set into motion, Mr. Weigel believes, that pulled European man away from transcendent truths. One casualty was a fixed idea of human nature.

"If there is no such thing as human nature," Mr. Weigel argues, "then there are no universal moral principles that can be read from human nature." If there are no universal moral truths, then religion, positing them, is merely a form of oppression or myth, one from which Europe's elites see themselves as liberated."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110006554

Originally Posted by goldenboy

What is the deeper source of European antipathy to religion?

Maybe the Europeans are having a bad hangover after centuries of viscious religious wars between the Catholics and the Protestants, topped by the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews. Not to mention wars in Spain and the Balkans against Muslims.

Well, not those people.

Originally Posted by Mr. Frank Furedi

At present this is the one movement that it cannot handle or do business with. The contrast of the 'No' campaign with the so-called anti-capitalist or 'Make Poverty History' movements could not be more striking. These movements do not challenge the prevailing political culture; indeed, they reinforce it. That is why politicians are falling over themselves to praise the anti-poverty lobby. Leading British ministers are encouraging people to come and protest on the streets of Edinburgh during the G8 summit in July. The lobbyists and NGOS that participate in this movement are regarded as their own by the political elites.


By contrast, when confronted by a populist movement the political class feels vulnerable and exposed. Whatever their limitations, such movements remind the world that the political elites are more interested in insulating themselves from the pressures of everyday life than in engaging with the real world. They say that they are worried about the problem of political disengagement, but the last thing they want is a public that is genuinely happy to engage. That is why they will think twice about organising more referendums. We should thank the 'No' campaign for reminding us that democracy only exists when people are prepared to make their voices heard.

Better to sing about poverty in Africa than deal with the problems of Europe. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: Better to send money across the South Atlantic than wonder about the crossings of the Rio Grande. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Originally Posted by Mr. Frank Furedi

...democracy only exists when people are prepared to make their voices heard.

I don't believe this at all, unless one wishes to posit that democracy has never existed.

Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59

Originally Posted by Mr. Frank Furedi

...democracy only exists when people are prepared to make their voices heard.

I don't believe this at all, unless one wishes to posit that democracy has never existed.

Originally Posted by Mr. Thomas Fleming

Let me say at the outset that there is another technical word for this democratic theory and it is buncombe.

Friendly takeover Dominique de Villepin and the Secrets of Europe.

Originally Posted by Herr Gustav Seibt

France, still highly centralised, wants to be united with those domains
within the German state which don't fall under the authority of the
German federal states or Europe. This would comprise the core of the existent
federal state, particularly in foreign and defence policy but also in
research and social policy – quantitatively expressed, roughly 60 to 70
percent of the German federal budget.

Originally Posted by GS

It is thus more than just a turn of phrase to describe the EU as a
thing between a federation of states and a federal republic. Both terms
represent
a concentration of historical experience whose importance cannot be
overestimated. The nation, including its federal state, stands for
the realisation of freedom while the federation of states represents the
guarantee of peace. In reality, the experience of power expressed
in the term of the federation of states plays a much greater role,
while in the stratosphere of ideas, it is the notion of the federal republic with
its
connotations of the nation and freedom, that dominates. France, with
its centralist tradition and traditionally broken relationship to the European
balance has greater problems with the terminological balance
than England, Benelux, Italy or Germany – the last traditionally split
nations.