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Thread: Financial Crisis - Page 15







Post#351 at 01-08-2002 11:12 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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01-08-2002, 11:12 AM #351
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On 2002-01-06 22:16, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

"A bigger acorn has fallen on my head."

Yeah, so fucking what! Are you the first damn asshole to have an acorn, what ever size, fall on your damn head!

Get a fucking grip, Mr. Reed! You ain't seen nothing yet. Bin laden is but a stinking foreshadow of what's to come! Death, stinking death... till it runs out your damn nostrils, till it reeks in every fiber of your bones, Mr. Reed! Imagine you worst damn nightmare! It comes! It comes! Praise God, Mr. Reed, it comes!

Happy?

Is this the dream of fucking intraverts, or what? Calling Dr. Lamb! Come on fuel this idiot's 4T fire!

Sheesh.
In honor of Elvis' birthday, I respectfully request that Marc do us the honor of singing "I'm a hunka, hunka burnin' love."







Post#352 at 01-08-2002 02:05 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-06 13:47, Marc S. Lamb wrote:

And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.

And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. --1 Samuel 17:43-46


We all know how the chapter plays out: A young hero keeps his word while forcing the giant to eat his. Might makes right and a sling shot overcomes the sword.

But thats not my point. My point is that the Chicken Littles of the world contribute nothing while attempting to consume everything. They are but a clanging cymbol within the civil-body politic. They run around hysterical as they posit there doom and gloom scenarios. With absolutely nothing at stake, and hence nothing to lose, they cry wolf often enough that sometime, somewhere their bound to get it right.

Yet when the real wolf does appear they are the last to be found willing to confront the challenge, to stand up to the danger, to confront the Goliath.

Sadly, young Robert Reed (some think of a David-like generation) has chosen to follow Robert's (and those like him) Chicken Little lead.

And yes, the chief prophet of doom and gloom, a man disinherited from the GOP long ago, Mr. Buchanan leadth his flock of goats to bitter waters.

For where else can they go, they that dream of only of darkness, and not of light?
"Yet when the real wolf does appear they are the last to be found willing to confront the challenge, to stand up to the danger, to confront the Goliath."

The problem is, Marc, that you do not appear to recognize who the real wolf is. Did Jesus surround himself with Machiavels? No. Why not? Think really hard. Why would you see George W. Bush on the side of Jesus when he retains as his closest advisors such morally-bankrupt Machiavels as Karl Rove and Karen Hughes? These are the sorts of people who were changing money at the temple and Jesus made his views clear with respect to them. When an innocent man rots in prison for 30 years and the FBI knows that he is innocent the whole time and does nothing to free him, and when the Bush administration asserts executive privilege putting a stop to all efforts to bring the relevant federal employees to justice, why would you even remotely confuse these people with Jesus and what He stood for? Since that innocent man was allowed to rot for 30 years by the Boston office of the FBI and there is an expansive history of corruption in that particular office far beyond this one incident, why on earth would Jesus ever appoint Robert Mueller, the head of that abominably corrupt Boston office, to head the entire FBI? He simply would not, would He? Why not, Marc? So why would you even pretend that this administration, loaded as it is with the basest form of Machiavel, is even remotely on the side of Jesus?

You can compare and contrast the Republicans and Democrats all you want. But it does not follow that one has to be on Jesus' side and the other not. Indeed neither one is -- and this is plainly obvious. But that is subject to change. And so long as the Republican Party continues to employ these people who are lower than anything Jesus ever had to scrape off the soles of his sandals before entering a dwelling, the only hope, remote as it is, lies with the Democrats (or some new third party). Will the Democrats sufficiently change? Probably not. But it is a given that the Republicans will not so long as Kool-Aid drinkers continue to support these soulless Machiavels. And so many who claim to love Jesus actually have the audacity to liken this lowest rung of the human ladder to Him! Is it any wonder that Christianity has such a tough row to hoe today when so many of its advocates freely reveal their moral bankruptcy?

You mention the wolf? The wolf is a predator. He is a Machiavel. You want to see the wolf? Look in that White House which you as a Christian so wholeheartedly support.

Grace does not give one a license to lie, cheat, swindle, and steal, does it, Marc? Jesus had no tolerance for Machiavels. And neither should you.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-01-08 13:39 ]</font>







Post#353 at 01-08-2002 02:20 PM by Neisha '67 [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 2,227]
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Wow, guys! My time is limited, so I only check out a few threads. But, it seems like I have been missing out on some action! We must be in or close to 4T if anyone can find a reason to become irritated with Robert Reed!







Post#354 at 01-08-2002 04:30 PM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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What are Kool-aid drinkers? Does that refer to Jonestown or alcohol abstainers?







Post#355 at 01-08-2002 06:29 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-08 13:30, cbailey wrote:

What are Kool-aid drinkers? Does that refer to Jonestown or alcohol abstainers?
The origin is Jonestown. It is synonymous with blind obedience to authority.







Post#356 at 01-08-2002 07:15 PM by cbailey [at B. 1950 joined Sep 2001 #posts 1,559]
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Gotcha.







Post#357 at 01-09-2002 09:30 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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This is for Robert Reed and any other Millies who are too young to remember the good ole days of deficit spending (as well as any wonks who like to follow Federal budget battles). From the on-line Government Executive:

The latest in what seems to be a steady series of budget twists is that increasing the federal debt ceiling is likely to be the first big fight of 2002.


First, a bit of history: The federal debt limit was last raised in 1997 as part of the budget deal between the Clinton administration and Congress. The size of that increase was based on the assumption that the deficit would steadily decline until the budget was balanced by the end of fiscal 2002.

When the deficit unexpectedly became a surplus four years ahead of schedule in fiscal 1998--and as the surpluses for fiscal 1999 and beyond kept growing to previously unimaginable levels--the debt-ceiling increase that was projected to get the government through fiscal 2002 suddenly seemed to be high enough to last through fiscal 2008. It appeared unlikely that President Bush, even if re-elected in 2004, would have to deal with this issue at all.

That all changed, however, as the projected big surpluses first started to decline last year and then changed to deficits. All of a sudden, the debt ceiling was not only too low to get the federal government through 2008, but it appeared inadequate even to cover all of 2002. This is why Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill last week formally requested that Congress raise the debt ceiling by $750 billion as soon as it returns to work later this month.

All of which brings to the forefront a testy budget issue the administration and Congress had hoped and expected to avoid. It also forces Democrats and Republicans to deal publicly with a number of other high-profile budget issues early in the year, months before other procedural requirements would have required them to do so.

This will be a very different fight from the last time the debt ceiling was an issue. In 1995 and 1996, the new Republican majority in Congress tried to withhold an increase in the federal borrowing limit until the Clinton administration agreed to a variety of policy changes. That strategy was based on what was then the commonly accepted wisdom that the federal government would effectively be broke as soon as the old ceiling was reached and so would default on its obligations if the borrowing limit were not raised.

Thanks in part to skillful maneuvering by then-Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and a great deal of misunderstanding about government borrowing that had built up over the years, that common wisdom on the debt ceiling turned out to be false. The federal government did not instantly turn into a fiscal pumpkin, as many had believed it would when the debt ceiling was not raised. The Clinton White House never felt the pressure that many in Congress had hoped to impose.

This relatively recent experience will almost certainly temper much of what some members of Congress might like to extract from the debt-ceiling debate this year. Threatening not to pass the legislation simply is not as much of a weapon as it was once thought to be.

In addition, it is virtually inconceivable that Congress will refuse to raise the government's borrowing limit with troops conducting military operations overseas and cash needed to pay for their expenses.

This does not mean that the debt-ceiling increase will be controversy-free, though.

In light of Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle's speech last Friday about the Bush administration being to blame for the deficit, Democrats are likely to use the debate on the debt ceiling to try to force the White House to defend itself on the declining budget outlook--and to pressure congressional Republicans to defend the White House. Before agreeing to an increase, Democrats are likely to demand their pound of political flesh by insisting that O'Neill, Office of Management and Budget Director Mitch Daniels and others testify about why the debt-ceiling increase is needed.

Moreover, it is extremely unlikely that Democrats will agree to raise the debt ceiling by as much as the administration has requested; a $750 billion increase would be large enough to get the government through the 2004 election. It is far more likely that Democrats will choose to keep the government borrowing (and re-emerging deficit) issue alive through 2004 and this time agree to raise the ceiling by perhaps half of what the White House is seeking.

It is also possible that there will be more than one debt-ceiling increase this year. Democrats may be willing to agree only to a short-term increase to allow the government to keep borrowing until the budget is debated in May and June. The debt ceiling would then be raised by only enough to get through early next year, when the debate would continue and the administration would have to face the same issues again.

All in all, it should make for an interesting February...







Post#358 at 01-09-2002 11:05 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
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Mr. Patton writes, "Why would you [Mr. Lamb]see George W. Bush on the side of Jesus when he retains as his closest advisors such morally-bankrupt Machiavels as Karl Rove and Karen Hughes?" And he adds, "...why on earth would Jesus ever appoint Robert Mueller, the head of that abominably corrupt Boston office, to head the entire FBI?"

Then he concludes, "You mention the wolf? The wolf is a predator. He is a
Machiavel"(li)


Response:

I consider myself at least somewhat 'clued' in (Mr. Saari may rightfully disagree :smile: ) concerning Bush operatives, Mr. Patton. Your charges about Rove, Hughes and Mueller are somewhat news to me. Can you cite me some credible sources to confirm what you write.

Feel free to jump on in Mr. Saari, or others of the same opinion on the unholy triumvirate
of Rove, Hughes and Mueller.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2002-01-11 08:50 ]</font>







Post#359 at 01-11-2002 01:01 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Doug Casey makes a case that the recession is not yet over: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=26005
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#360 at 01-12-2002 07:41 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Subject: Like Father Like Son

Back during all the pother over the 2000 Election tossup I said that whoever wins whether it be Owl Gore or George Jr. will probably eventually wish the other guy won. Looks like I was right. All this Enron fuss is just the beginning of the recriminations over the Bush Economy (as everyone will soon be calling it). I predict George will be a one term president just like Dad. Remember it was the economy ("It's the Economy stupid!") that knocked off George Sr. and got Bill Clinton elected. God help us Hillary may be the next president. If so I think I'll move to someplace safe and calm like Argentina.

Despite what Big Al said yesterday the economy is getting worse not better. Enron wasn't all that unusual. Most large companies are up to their ears in debt after the 90's debt driven mania. There's a rumor J.P. Morgan/Chase is next. If you thought Enron was a big deal just wait till Morgan goes down the tubes.

Does anybody know where I can get a good deal on a new Ford Escort?







Post#361 at 01-13-2002 12:26 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Robert--

I feel better now. It's back to business as usual from the Oval Orifice. "Follow the money" applies once again. What a relief! Yes, it's a morality issue--a whole lot more Christian than "follow the bodily juices."

George W. may wish his problems were as simple as a bimbo's orifice. Monica: where are you now that we need you?








Post#362 at 01-13-2002 06:41 PM by BoomXer [at Columbus, OH d.o.b...5.9.59 joined Sep 2001 #posts 55]
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The Bushes.........single term bookends defining the Wonderfully Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World of Clintonia







Post#363 at 01-13-2002 09:29 PM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Cold, Cold Heart or something from the Fortunes: I ain't got no pity for you....


Some exposition on the folks running Enron and the innocents (sic) who worked there. HTH







Post#364 at 01-13-2002 09:54 PM by pindiespace [at Pete '56 (indiespace.com) joined Jul 2001 #posts 165]
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One of the biggest problems emerging now is consumer credit. During 2001, credit rose quite a bit, to as high as it has ever been. The last couple of months were real zingers -- This is the reason that consumer spending remained high while business cut back.

Unfortunately, in order for business to raise inventory, order new stuff, etc., consumer have to spend *more* than they are now. The promised rise in business depends critically on consumer spending.

April should be a very interesting month. We might see real trouble in Japan right when the US "recovery" is slated to begin. Note that many of the layoffs announced in 2001 didn't take effect until this year, and people will be starting to really feel "out of work" by April. Combine that with massive writeoffs of "goodwil" (AOL/Time-Warner's 60 billion writeoff is only a beginning) and retail failures (K-Mart, the Gap) plus the loss of the steel and textile industry -- plus another Enron or two and everyone will be begging consumers to spend more.

Will all our credit card maxes be raised? Will refinancing your home at 125% (and taking out the 25% as cash) become a patriotic duty? I can't wait to see what my new limits will be!







Post#365 at 01-13-2002 10:35 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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On 2002-01-13 18:54, pindiespace wrote:
One of the biggest problems emerging now is consumer credit. During 2001, credit rose quite a bit, to as high as it has ever been. The last couple of months were real zingers -- This is the reason that consumer spending remained high while business cut back.

Unfortunately, in order for business to raise inventory, order new stuff, etc., consumer have to spend *more* than they are now. The promised rise in business depends critically on consumer spending.

April should be a very interesting month. We might see real trouble in Japan right when the US "recovery" is slated to begin. Note that many of the layoffs announced in 2001 didn't take effect until this year, and people will be starting to really feel "out of work" by April. Combine that with massive writeoffs of "goodwil" (AOL/Time-Warner's 60 billion writeoff is only a beginning) and retail failures (K-Mart, the Gap) plus the loss of the steel and textile industry -- plus another Enron or two and everyone will be begging consumers to spend more.

Will all our credit card maxes be raised? Will refinancing your home at 125% (and taking out the 25% as cash) become a patriotic duty? I can't wait to see what my new limits will be!
A few more nations are in danger of defaulting. A US downturn could be very disasterous for Mexico. Imagine a new influx of Mexicans, and our nativist reaction.

Can we blame this balloon of credit on Bush, who encouraged people to spend spend spend in light of the attacks? Credit is rising far faster than incomes. Can you imagine massive consumer debt?
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#366 at 01-13-2002 11:34 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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I can just see the future:

Year 2028:

Reporter: We are speaking to a generation of war heroes speak about what happened in September 11, 2001, when those buildings hit the World Trade Center. What happened, Logan Rush?

Logan: My mother just wanted to spend, spend, and spend! I got a new Playstation 2, a new television set with a 5 DVD-changer, and these $250 sneakers!!

Reporter: Very interesting, Mr. Rush, now let's speak to Lindy Miller.

Lindy: I got a new 1970s Feminist Barbie set!! I also got a minibike, and an Easy Microwave Oven!!

Reporter: Let's hear from someone else traumatized by this event. Bart, what happened when those planes went down in history?

Bart: My mother bought a sausage shaped back massager, and my father bought a whole bunch of licorice panties. What weird parents I had!!

Reporter: I am Bruce Jackson, reporter, for the Channel 5 News, reporting on this fateful day in history. Good night.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's transcendence of itself." - John S. Lewis
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Einstein

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-01-13 20:39 ]</font>







Post#367 at 01-14-2002 10:36 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Was Enron a cult? I ask in all seriousness. The employees who invested in the company so heavily were not all old gas pipeline men or janitors or security guards; there were sophisticated traders and analysts as well. Did any of these people give up their moral agency when they worshipped Mammon and his incarnation Mr. Lay? Is this a 3T behavior? Do advise.







Post#368 at 01-14-2002 12:10 PM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-01-14 07:36, Virgil K. Saari wrote:

Was Enron a cult? I ask in all seriousness. The employees who invested in the company so heavily were not all old gas pipeline men or janitors or security guards; there were sophisticated traders and analysts as well. Did any of these people give up their moral agency when they worshipped Mammon and his incarnation Mr. Lay? Is this a 3T behavior? Do advise.
"Well the preacher kept right on saying that all I had to do was send
Ten dollars to Church of the Sacred Bleeding Heart of [Enron]
Located somewhere in Los Angeles, California, and next week they'd say my prayer on the radio and all my dreams would come true.
So I did and next week I got a prayer for the girl, well you know what kind of eyes she's got..."








Post#369 at 01-14-2002 01:51 PM by Croakmore [at The hazardous reefs of Silentium joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,426]
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Meanwhile, I'm still thinkin'...







Post#370 at 01-14-2002 02:11 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Subject: Acolytes of Mannion

Of course they were a cult! This entire Bull Run for the last 20 years was a giant MANIA based on money creation by the Federal Reserve System. Money is the only true God and Al Greenspan is its prophet. No new REAL wealth was created, just vast amounts of Funny Money. All the True Believers think they're going to get rich with counterfeit money. However recently cracks have begun to appear in their religious fervor. Whether it will lead to a Denunciation is up in the air. Time will tell.







Post#371 at 01-16-2002 11:01 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Post#372 at 01-16-2002 12:58 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Will K-Mart go the way of the Enron?

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20...mart_dc_5.html

<font color="blue">
<big>Kmart Shares Dive on Bankruptcy Worries</big>
By Anna Driver

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Kmart Corp. (NYSE:KM - news) shares plunged to a 35-year low on Wednesday after Standard & Poor's said it would drop the discount retailer from its S&P 500 index, as bankruptcy worries mounted amid the company's silence following a board of directors meeting.

Investors and analysts had hoped that Kmart would disclose how it will address Wall Street's concerns about a possible bankruptcy following a meeting of the company's board of directors on Monday and Tuesday. So far, the company has not issued a statement.

Calls to Kmart on Wednesday were not immediately returned.

The second-largest U.S. discount retailer has been losing the fierce competitive battle with rivals Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE:WMT - news) and Target Corp. (NYSE:TGT - news), especially over the recent Christmas shopping period when its sales were disappointing.

Kmart shares fell as low as $1.40, off $1.05 or 43 percent, in morning New York Stock Exchange trading, a level unseen since December 1966, according to data from Standard & Poor's that has been adjusted for stock splits. More than 38 million shares changed hands.

Since the beginning of the year Kmart shares have lost more than two-thirds of their value, wiping nearly a billion dollars off its market capitalization.

``The stock is trading on pure emotion,'' said Eric Beder, retail analyst at Ladenburg, Thalmann & Co. ``They've needed to say something for weeks. If Kmart is not going to declare Chapter 11, they need to come out and forcefully say that.''

Adding to Kmart's woes, Standard & Poor's said after the stock market close on Tuesday that it would drop the Troy, Michigan-based Kmart from its S&P 500 Index. That action was expected to trigger selling from managers of index funds who base their portfolios on the stocks in the index.

``A lot of people manage money based on the S&P index,'' Marie Driscoll, a retail analyst with Argus Research, said. ``A lot of funds, whether they think the shares are undervalued or not, are just going to drop the shares.''

Debt rating agencies have downgraded Kmart. Also, Kmart said last week it was in talks with lenders, may seek additional financing from its lenders and was reviewing its business plans for 2002 and 2003.

One analyst said the company is probably tending to details before releasing a statement.

``Maybe nothing is resolved yet,'' Argus' Driscoll said. ''Maybe they are still ironing out some loan arrangements.''

</font>
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#373 at 01-16-2002 03:02 PM by monolith [at joined Jan 2002 #posts 8]
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Martha Stewart says she's gonna bail if K-Mart goes into bankruptcy. Will we see her at Wal-Mart maybe?







Post#374 at 01-16-2002 10:42 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Subject: More Enrons?

There was nothing really unusual about Enron. Most S&P 500 companies are up to their topknots in debt and they've all found various "creative accounting" schemes to hide the fact from analysts. (If you or I did this we'd wind up in gaol.) This is how they managed to make each quarterly report look so good and fool "investors" (I use that word advisedly) into buying their stock and keeping the share price pumped up so the CEO would get his annual bonus. Now it looks like the chickens is comin' home to roost with a vengence.

The rumor is GE (GE!) and JP Morgan/Chase are in trouble. Enron was just small potatoes compared to Morgan. As pessimistic as I am, even I don't want to contemplate what would happen if Ol'Man Morgan went down the chute. Talk about systemic risk! And GE is a major defense contractor. If GE is in trouble then no one is safe.

By the way where are our gamblers Marc Lamb and enjolias? They're either making money hand over fist or they're in trouble. How about an Action Report guys?







Post#375 at 01-17-2002 06:56 PM by enjolras [at Santa Barbara, CA joined Sep 2001 #posts 174]
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down about 2% so far this month. up a little over 40% for 2001 net of fees and unleveraged.
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